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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 09:07   #1
Sharur
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Working/moving abroad

So I'm at a point in my life where I suddenly realised I don't have anything keeping me where I live. I grew up, went to school and college and work in the exact same city as where I was born. All my friends have girlfriends and I don't see them as much anymore as I did and I don't mean as much to them anymore as I did. I still go out with them but it's become more of a tradition every week than actually something I want to do, and let's face it, once they move in with their girlfriends they won't go out nearly as much anymore.
So I was thinking what it would be like to just move out of here and get a job abroad, preferably somewhere where they speak english since all my other language skills are shit. And I'd like it to be a country with good weather. I was thinking about the west coast of the US, but I understand that getting a green card is pure luck. And even if I would get one, what are the chances of getting a decent job with the diploma I got in Belgium? I'm 23 years old and have a (professional) Bachelor in Computer Sciences.

Does anybody have any experience with moving/working abroad? How much money would be needed to save before you go? Are there any other things I need to know?
At the moment it's not even something I thought through yet, just an idea that came up in my mind. But it's best to hear if it's possible/not possible at this stage than if I would start spending more and more thoughts about it and turning out to be a pipe dream.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 09:26   #2
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Re: Working/moving abroad

From experience (I'm British born, half american and spent half my life over in Texas) I think that working in the US might be harder than you think. Firstly you more than likely need a sponsor (to sponsor your green card) and they would either have to be an American family member, an American Company (who can prove that you have skills that aren't readily available to them on the American market) or a multi-national company who are willing to sponsor you and send you out as an expatriate or second you to the states. There are other ways as well, but they're more 'naughty'... you can marry an American girl and then you need to prove that you're ion love which is very invasive but can easily be faked if you know what they'll ask for (photos/love-letters-etc) - I know many people who have got to the US this way --- or you can go a more official route. Go to your local US embassy (likely in Antwerp?) and ask them about the process of emigration. There may be potential for you to get an extended stay visa, to get a student visa, a travel visa - etc... - but at least it could get you out there.

Then there's the topic of money... I'd imagine you need enough to cover rent for a few months (in case it takes a while to get a job), you'd need to figure out where you wanna be (I'd suggest silicon valley, since that's where most of the blue chip firms on the west coast are these days) and find out how expensive it is to rent/buy/live/etc... (more importantly check online to see that they have vacancies).

My personal advice would be either make friends with an american girl and do an 'arranged greencard marriage' if your religious/moral views will allow you. Failing that talk to the biggest computing firms around and see if any of them have opportunities to work abroad or if they are willing to sponsor you (maybe even to do a masters while working in their LA office or something?)

Good luck!
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 09:29   #3
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Re: Working/moving abroad

India? Warm, nice toilets, language. The English (if you're looking for somewhere where it's spoken as an official language) tends to limit you a lot. What comes to US, you might do good checking out the major transnational corporate websites for job applications. Apply for a job that seems nice, and if you get recruited the company will most likely handle the necessities of getting you a work permit/green card or such. Obviously, it's "possible", and a lot of people do it.







How about Wales? :F
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 09:42   #4
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Apart from high end employment (snr positions) ive never seen the attraction of working in the us, afaik the holiday entitlement isn't the same let alone employee rights. TBH i'd try moving to another part of the country first; if that doesn't work i'd personally opt for somewhere in the EU the ease of travel and open employement markets easily offset the language requirement - besides most professional businesses speak english, wasn't there a report a few years ago of some german board meetings being conducted in english!?
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 09:48   #5
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Re: Working/moving abroad

yeah I was in a Typhoon HR meeting in Germany 3 months ago where they all spoke English and even did German jokes (but in English) which I didn't understand/'get'
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 09:52   #6
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
i'd personally opt for somewhere in the EU the ease of travel and open employement markets easily offset the language requiremen
Oh yes! And one'd contribute to the efficiency of the monetary union through increased labour mobility. Awesome.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 10:16   #7
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Re: Working/moving abroad

First of all thanks for the quick replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
From experience (I'm British born, half american and spent half my life over in Texas) I think that working in the US might be harder than you think. Firstly you more than likely need a sponsor (to sponsor your green card) and they would either have to be an American family member, an American Company (who can prove that you have skills that aren't readily available to them on the American market) or a multi-national company who are willing to sponsor you and send you out as an expatriate or second you to the states.
Unfortunately I don't have any family in the US, actually I barely have family here in Belgium (they all seem to die of cancer ). I don't have skills that aren't available on the US market, I'm the most average IT'er you'll ever know, and I'm also just looking for an average IT job, nothing spectacular. So that means finding a multi-national to send me out as an expatriate would be pretty hard. I read that there's some sort of lottery (could've been a figure of speach that getting a green card is as hard as winning the lottery though) to get a green card if you have none of the above options?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
There are other ways as well, but they're more 'naughty'... you can marry an American girl and then you need to prove that you're ion love which is very invasive but can easily be faked if you know what they'll ask for (photos/love-letters-etc) - I know many people who have got to the US this way --- or you can go a more official route. Go to your local US embassy (likely in Antwerp?) and ask them about the process of emigration. There may be potential for you to get an extended stay visa, to get a student visa, a travel visa - etc... - but at least it could get you out there.
How long do these marriages have to last? Is there any chance that they'll retract your green card (or don't renew it if it's needed) after you seperated? Or do you need to stay married till you find somebody else to marry? What if that girl changes her mind or wants to get married herself? Do they send you back then?
The problem with getting an extended stay visa is a that you move all your stuff there and if you can't get anything to prolong your visa you'll be deported back right, would they do that if you already found a job?

I just realise at this point I'm bombarding you with questions here, just so you know, there's no rush in answering them or anything. It's not like I'm going anywhere, yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
Then there's the topic of money... I'd imagine you need enough to cover rent for a few months (in case it takes a while to get a job), you'd need to figure out where you wanna be (I'd suggest silicon valley, since that's where most of the blue chip firms on the west coast are these days) and find out how expensive it is to rent/buy/live/etc... (more importantly check online to see that they have vacancies).

My personal advice would be either make friends with an american girl and do an 'arranged greencard marriage' if your religious/moral views will allow you. Failing that talk to the biggest computing firms around and see if any of them have opportunities to work abroad or if they are willing to sponsor you (maybe even to do a masters while working in their LA office or something?)

Good luck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
India? Warm, nice toilets, language. The English (if you're looking for somewhere where it's spoken as an official language) tends to limit you a lot. What comes to US, you might do good checking out the major transnational corporate websites for job applications. Apply for a job that seems nice, and if you get recruited the company will most likely handle the necessities of getting you a work permit/green card or such. Obviously, it's "possible", and a lot of people do it.
I think I'd be terribly uneducated in India and the ways of living there don't really seem all that good to me.

It's not really important to have an awesome carreer in silicon valley or anything, I'd much rather work as the local IT guy in some multinational taking care of the computers/servers/network. I guess that'd be hard to get as a foreigner?
I'm guessing getting a girl to agree to an arranged greencard marriage would usually need money to persuade her aswell? I don't see anybody just marrying some guy just to help him quite honestly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
How about Wales? :F
I don't like sheep and I can't even pronounce their towns

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Apart from high end employment (snr positions) ive never seen the attraction of working in the us, afaik the holiday entitlement isn't the same let alone employee rights. TBH i'd try moving to another part of the country first; if that doesn't work i'd personally opt for somewhere in the EU the ease of travel and open employement markets easily offset the language requirement - besides most professional businesses speak english, wasn't there a report a few years ago of german board meetings being conducted in english!?
Well it's not the jobs that attract me in the US, but obviously it is the most important condition that needs to be met to be able to live there. I just really hate the weather and dislike the general attitude of the people here in Belgium, ofcourse I don't know if the people in the US are any better. But I don't think I'd be able to move to a country with the same type of weather or colder and like it there :/
Am I being silly to base such a decision on the type of weather my destination should have like I'm planning a holiday? :P
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 11:10   #8
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
I read that there's some sort of lottery (could've been a figure of speach that getting a green card is as hard as winning the lottery though) to get a green card if you have none of the above options?
It might be worth reading :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_..._Resident_Card

Why not Dublin, London or Edinburgh? There seems to be plenty of entry/mid level IT jobs in London, although the pay/conditions seem to vary wildly. Accomodation is very expensive as well, by most standards at least.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 11:35   #9
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Re: Working/moving abroad

If you want to go further afield, why not try Australia or even New Zealand?

The weather is good, both countries speak English and have fairly developed economies. You don't need to be anything out of this world spectacular to get a work Visa for a year or two.

Economically though it would be a very silly idea. The salary wouldn't be as good - although relative expenses wouldn't be as high either. Our foreign exchange is way up against the Euro, so your money wouldn't be worth as much down here. And then there's the the significant moving cost associated with long distance travel.

You'd be much better off going to another place in Europe. Only crazy people come down here. Or people who are well off, and do it for the lifestyle.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 11:48   #10
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Why not Dublin, London or Edinburgh?
If you're fond of water (as in rain), why not. The thing is, if he feels uncomfortable with the weather in Belgium, and considers the weather in California nice, the odds are he isn't going to like it in London either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
Only crazy people come down here
I heard there's also lots of inmates and criminals going there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
It's not really important to have an awesome carreer in silicon valley or anything, I'd much rather work as the local IT guy in some multinational taking care of the computers/servers/network. I guess that'd be hard to get as a foreigner?
Yeah, I'd reckon the IT-sector isn't in a real lack of those local IT blokes, at least in Finland we're probably a bit bloated of those. We do have an authentic Japanese guy taking care of our Canon copy machines!


Even so, your initial problem really seems to be finding a place that's a) nice enough by weather, b) nice enough on other terms, and c) where English is spoken as an official language.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
Our foreign exchange is way up against the Euro, so your money wouldn't be worth as much down here
Real?
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 12:04   #11
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Go to aussie or NZ for a year, travel, work, get to know people, just get away, home may feel like shit at the moment, but once your away from it that might change, so dont burn your bridges with a green card too soon.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 12:13   #12
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Re: Working/moving abroad

If you're looking for sun, try South Africa.

The unemployment and AIDS infection rates might put you off a tad though...
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 13:11   #13
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Apart from high end employment (snr positions) ive never seen the attraction of working in the us, afaik the holiday entitlement isn't the same let alone employee rights.
More money, cheaper living, better weather; sounds terrible.

'Employees rights' hardly matter at real jobs; I suppose its an issue if youre planning on working in wal-mart or something.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 13:21   #14
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
It might be worth reading :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_..._Resident_Card

Why not Dublin, London or Edinburgh? There seems to be plenty of entry/mid level IT jobs in London, although the pay/conditions seem to vary wildly. Accomodation is very expensive as well, by most standards at least.
Quote:
The term 50,000 "immigrants" is partial and refers only to people who immigrated via the family-sponsored, employment, or immediate relatives of U.S. citizen categories, and does not include other categories such as refugees, asylum seekers, NACARA beneficiaries, or previous diversity immigrants. It is for this reason that Cuba, Ukraine, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Guatemala and Iran are not on the ineligible list despite sending over 50,000 immigrants in the previous five years. [2]
So if I read that right it means you already need to be sponsored to be able to participate to this lottery? Or am I misinterpretating the text?
Reading the second link:
Quote:
Each year, around 50,000 immigrant visas are made available through the Diversity Visa (DV) program, also known as the Green Card Lottery to people who were born in countries with low rates of immigration to the United States (fewer than 50,000 immigrants in the past five years). Applicants can only qualify by country of birth, not by citizenship. Anyone who is selected under this lottery will be given the opportunity to apply for permanent residence. They can also file for their spouse and any unmarried children under the age of 21.

If permanent residence is granted, the winner (and his/her family, if applicable) receive an immigrant visa in their passport(s) that has to be "activated" within six months of issuance at any port of entry to the United States. The new immigrant receives a stamp on the visa as proof of lawful admittance to the United States, and the individual is now authorized to live and work permanently in the US. Finally, the actual "green card" will typically arrive by mail within a few months.
It doesn't mention anything about sponsorship before participation of the lottery though.
It does seem kinda like a "flawed" system to base any plans on.

And yeah, like Tietäjä said, the weather in the UK isn't really better than that in Belgium, plus you guys have chavs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
If you want to go further afield, why not try Australia or even New Zealand?

The weather is good, both countries speak English and have fairly developed economies. You don't need to be anything out of this world spectacular to get a work Visa for a year or two.

Economically though it would be a very silly idea. The salary wouldn't be as good - although relative expenses wouldn't be as high either. Our foreign exchange is way up against the Euro, so your money wouldn't be worth as much down here. And then there's the the significant moving cost associated with long distance travel.

You'd be much better off going to another place in Europe. Only crazy people come down here. Or people who are well off, and do it for the lifestyle.
Is it possible to get a permanent visa for these countries?
I heard they have pretty strict immigrant laws aswell, originally New Zealand has always been my dream country, but since I heard about very strict immigrant laws and such I kinda got discouraged. Seems like US has very strict immigrant laws aswell though. People want to keep me from living in countries with good weather
As for the euro not being worth much overthere, does it differ alot? Like how far would i come with say 1500 euros. Less than a month?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
Go to aussie or NZ for a year, travel, work, get to know people, just get away, home may feel like shit at the moment, but once your away from it that might change, so dont burn your bridges with a green card too soon.
This might be a good idea. Currently I got this very laid back job doing what I want, but I have a feeling this will change at the end of the year. If it does I might just go work abroad for a year with a temporary visa. But if I would do this, and it doesn't work out like you say and I want to get back. Would companies here in Belgium be reluctant to accept me because I went to work abroad in an area that isn't computers?
And what kind of jobs can you get for a year in NZ? I'm pretty sure it won't be anything with computers (which I don't mind) but I'm just curious what kind of jobs a foreigner would be able to get to afford living there for a year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
If you're looking for sun, try South Africa.

The unemployment and AIDS infection rates might put you off a tad though...
Yeah. I'm not a big fan of diseases.

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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 13:47   #15
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Re: Working/moving abroad

I moved to the States three and a half years ago through work, who got me a work visa, we're now working on a Green Card.

The process for the States takes months, and that's if the company can prove business necessity for me to work (specialised knowledge in my case). It's not easy.

Once you get wherever you plan to go, the one thing that struck me is how hard it is not having any credit history.
You may need your company to vouch for you even to get into an apartment. Loan for a car? Forget it, unless you want to pay extornionate interest rates (we did, it set up our credit for the future, but cost us several thousand to do it).

A friend of mine, who happens to be CFO of the same company, just moved over. He makes $250k a year, but he has the same problem.

Other than that, the US is a pretty good place to live, as Nod said. You have to make allowances for the locals, and remember that sarcasm isn't very well understood, but the standard of living is way higher than the UK, if you ignore the hurricanes...

I've lived/worked in about 6 different countries, my favourite was Canada, which was easy to get into ten years ago, apparently not so easy these days.

Australia and NZ both get very high ratings as far as standard of living goes and what you can do when you get there, but again, it's getting harder to get in. You really need to have a skill the country needs to make getting your visa possible.

Good luck.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 14:16   #16
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Do you have any idea of what you'd like to do once you're out there?

You could do an TEFL course (Teaching English as a Foreign Language). I think it takes 6 weeks or so (part time). Once you've got this, you're qualified to go to loads of different countries to teach English to kids there. People usually get contracts for 1 year or so, which allows them to live somewhere while earning a bit of money to fund the travel over there.

KaneED did it recently (or similar) so hopefully he can post something a bit more useful - but unless you're really adverse to the idea of teaching (TEFL generally isn't about setting homework etc, it's about getting them used to speaking the language - or so I've been led to believe) then it might be worth looking into...?
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 14:29   #17
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead_Meat
Once you get wherever you plan to go, the one thing that struck me is how hard it is not having any credit history.
You may need your company to vouch for you even to get into an apartment. Loan for a car? Forget it, unless you want to pay extornionate interest rates (we did, it set up our credit for the future, but cost us several thousand to do it).

A friend of mine, who happens to be CFO of the same company, just moved over. He makes $250k a year, but he has the same problem.
Hmm yeah I didn't really think about getting loans and stuff. As I said, it isn't a real thought through idea just something playing in my mind the last couple of weeks. May I ask what skill you have that makes you worth it for the US to sponsor you?
I don't really have any special skills, as far as I know, I'm quite average in everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Do you have any idea of what you'd like to do once you're out there?

You could do an TEFL course (Teaching English as a Foreign Language). I think it takes 6 weeks or so (part time). Once you've got this, you're qualified to go to loads of different countries to teach English to kids there. People usually get contracts for 1 year or so, which allows them to live somewhere while earning a bit of money to fund the travel over there.

KaneED did it recently (or similar) so hopefully he can post something a bit more useful - but unless you're really adverse to the idea of teaching (TEFL generally isn't about setting homework etc, it's about getting them used to speaking the language - or so I've been led to believe) then it might be worth looking into...?
If you're refering to mistwraith's idea, no I don't. I was kinda wondering what kind of stuff you could do for a year, for example that TEFL thing. I personally don't mind teaching, although I'm not sure if I'm very good at it. Can people who aren't english even do TEFL?
Either way I doubt people in australia/new zealand would need a belgian to teach them their own language though. I suppose Japan always struck me as interesting aswell, but that's totally "Lost in Translation" though.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 14:37   #18
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Why dont go to Canada instead? They seem to be quite less retarded than the americas, plus its a safe and peace loving country too!

Or you could go to scandinavia, where we have lovely woman.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 14:40   #19
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Re: Working/moving abroad

With a decent degree and a year or two of work experience immigration to Canada/Australia is pretty simple [I only know about Canada but it takes some time to get your application approved and such.]

I think there are a couple of issues you should consider here though:

1] Why the fixation on an English-speaking society? Consider working for a multinational where all your work is done in English but in a non-English-speaking country [China/East Asia, Europe, South America] You're 23 so you don't exactly have to pick a city to settle in and never leave, and traveling around soaking up different cultures can be very rewarding at this age. There are also a number of multinationals that would rotate you to a different country every year or so, but I'm not sure about IT roles doing that.

2] If what's limiting you from getting your East Coast Dreamlocation/job is the fact that you're "the most average ITer" out there, then simply broaden your horizons by ditching that label. Think long term: if switching jobs to something more specialized where you are now means you can apply to specialized positions in the states in a year or so, then it is probably worth it.

3] The Green Card Lottery is exactly that, a lottery - don't hang your hopes on winning it. Unfortunately the situation in the US isn't much better when it comes to company-sponsored IT work visas [H1B visas]. They're extremely limited in number, and tend to get snatched up on the very first day by large outsourcing companies. You would need to apply well in advance [they're given out in May i believe so applying by March at the absolute latest is recommended], through a company that can put your application through, and then cross your fingers.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 14:46   #20
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Hmm yeah I didn't really think about getting loans and stuff. As I said, it isn't a real thought through idea just something playing in my mind the last couple of weeks. May I ask what skill you have that makes you worth it for the US to sponsor you?
I don't really have any special skills, as far as I know, I'm quite average in everything.
I've worked with the same wireless telecoms company for ten years, so it wasn't a big problem to convince the US Embassy that they needed someone (me) in the US that knew all our products, can train people on them, give support, yadda yadda yadda,

As far as the US is concerned, as long as there isn't a suitable person in the US who could do the job, then it makes it a lot easier.
It's kind of annoying that we had to go through five months of visa checks, employment, medical, etc. to get a permit to work, when I've got the experience I have, when they let any Mexican into the country who's willing to mow lawns, clean houses and do every other shit job that everyone else in the US thinks is 'above' them.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 14:47   #21
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by viC
You would need to apply well in advance [they're given out in May i believe so applying by March at the absolute latest is recommended], through a company that can put your application through, and then cross your fingers.
Try workpermit.com, hope you got :tenbux:
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 14:49   #22
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Can people who aren't english even do TEFL?
Sure. As long as you understand the language well enough to teach it. You take a training course with them which lasts a couple of months I believe, if you've done reasonably well you sign a contract with them and start teaching. It is Teaching English as a Foreign Language so you'd have to deal with people from different backgrounds in a slightly Mind Your Language-ish situation.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 15:20   #23
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Re: Working/moving abroad

I'm gonna quit quoting several posts to write answers as I usually hate it myself if other people do it cause it makes it so hard to read, in my opinion.

Zhukov:
Canada and scandinavia are a bit too cold for me, I got an oppertunity to go work for a multinational that does alot of work in finland (i think it was finland, could be wrong) but I didn't because I already think it's too cold here in Belgium.

viC:
1: I realise for work that the language of the country isn't so important, but I think socially living in a country where you don't understand anything they say can be quite depressive. Even asking directions to somewhere can be quite frustrating I think. Traveling around and soaking up culture sounds great, but I'm afraid we live in a society where it would be punished more than rewarded. Let's say I'd travel around for a while picking up random jobs in random countries. At a certain point I'd like to settle down, but when I do I'll have troubles getting a steady job that pays enough to feed a family etc I think.

2: The thing is I don't mind being an average ITer, it doesn't bring stress with it and it pays enough to live outside my work. If I were to specialise into something I'd get more money and less time to spend it. I'm just not that kind of person.


Thanks again for all the replies, you're a helpful bunch <3
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 15:36   #24
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
'Employees rights' hardly matter at real jobs; I suppose its an issue if youre planning on working in wal-mart or something.
Not really - there's an expectations issue. According to Google's website their US employees start at 15 days annual leave - I get 32 and started on 25 (and it was a theoretical maximum of 43 but our contract changed recently) and the UK statutory minimum is 20. (Unless Google is some sort of Walmart type job, which I presume it's not).

In America there is a stronger expectation (from what I've read) that you'll work longer hours, take less holidays, etc. In the UK the legal rights which exist for workers act as a balance against that I'd say.

edit : As for more money I suspect it depends heavily. Even if I could get more money in the US the tendency towards compulsory drug testing doesn't thrill me.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 16:07   #25
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Moving to the US might be easiest by enrolling to a university or so. I don't think you need a green card for that, just a student visum, and you can then build up a network of well positioned people over there to sponsor you for your green card. But universities in the US cost lost of money.
What I just wrote might all not be true, but it's a different route of getting into the US surely.

Personally I'm currently figuring things out how to enroll for a Japanese university for my masters. I'm about your age, 24, and also in IT. There are tonnes of cool educations in Japan in that area and also very good universities for which tuition only costs 3000-4000 euros a year. Much more affordable than the US.
Big drawback of entering Japan though is that you have to do the Japanese language education in Japan and pass an exam before you can even enroll for a university. So you have to be able to bridge the time you take the education, which is six months I believe, without expecting too much income.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 16:34   #26
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Apparently Vancouver is the best place to live in the world right now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4306936.stm

I know someone on IRC who moved to Canada from the UK and he absolutely loves it in BC, although he moved out to Victoria for some reason (although he does have a family).
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 16:56   #27
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Canada and scandinavia are a bit too cold for me, I got an oppertunity to go work for a multinational that does alot of work in finland (i think it was finland, could be wrong) but I didn't because I already think it's too cold here in Belgium.
I got problems sleeping now, couse its to hot.

Maybe you should stay in belgium and let global warming raise the temprature?
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 17:12   #28
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
More money, cheaper living, better weather; sounds terrible.
The £4000 odd difference in ppp/capita isn't nearly enough to intice me, and i'd go to ireland if that kind of thing interested me. Unless its for a medical condition 'better weather' is about the least sensible decision to move anywhere in the world ever. Besides i happen to like 4 mild yet distinctive seasons. Id probably move if i wanted a completely different job that wasn't available here, like being a cowboy or something (i think they still exist).

Quote:
'Employees rights' hardly matter at real jobs; I suppose its an issue if youre planning on working in wal-mart or something.
The prospect of working for bastard corporation incorporated doesn't turn me on
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 17:12   #29
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I know someone on IRC who moved to Canada from the UK and he absolutely loves it in BC, although he moved out to Victoria for some reason (although he does have a family).
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 17:24   #30
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
I just really hate the weather and dislike the general attitude of the people here in Belgium, ofcourse I don't know if the people in the US are any better. But I don't think I'd be able to move to a country with the same type of weather or colder and like it there :/
Am I being silly to base such a decision on the type of weather my destination should have like I'm planning a holiday? :P
You need an answer? Go to greece, they all speak english. I assume you can speak french, aren't places like french guyana actually part of the republic and EU?
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 17:31   #31
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Personally the only country (accept Turkey) I would ever consider to abandon the worlds biggest shite country (Norway) for is Canada.

Been there for a visit, and its superb country, nice people and ace health care.
Oh, and hunting the moose = :wub:

Heat is overrated
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 18:46   #32
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Re: Working/moving abroad

I wouldnt exactly go to Canada from Norway to hunt moose or to get good health care, as we have both at home.

But then again, Im not Allfather
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 20:15   #33
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Zhukov: Canada and scandinavia are a bit too cold for me,

The likes of Toronto during the summer are actually rather hot (fair play it's probably cold during the winter but meh).
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 20:17   #34
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
I wouldnt exactly go to Canada from Norway to hunt moose or to get good health care, as we have both at home.

But then again, Im not Allfather :)

Allfather seems pretty retarded.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 20:45   #35
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Re: Working/moving abroad

I'd vote for Canada. Doing a TEFL course and checking out a particular country sounds a good idea too. My friend did a eight hundred euro course and got a job pretty much straight away in Poland teaching English. You can go to just about any country though.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 22:56   #36
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
'Employees rights' hardly matter at real jobs; I suppose its an issue if youre planning on working in wal-mart or something.
Yep

While it is sweet to see you posting this (it's nice to see you post at all. Although by 'post' of course I assume that you simply mash the keyboard with your forehead and dyed black hair) I do have to point out that actually 'employee rights' matter more the more you are paid and the more senior you are.

In the grand scale of mattering paying off a "wal-mart" employee for breaching those rights is not particularly important to a company. Whereas paying off a CEO, MD or other senior figure is far more so.

The same applies at an individual level.

You demonstrate the marked ignorance of one who has not thought reality through.

(yet again)
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 23:03   #37
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Re: Working/moving abroad

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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 00:16   #38
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Is it possible to get a permanent visa for these countries?
I heard they have pretty strict immigrant laws aswell, originally New Zealand has always been my dream country, but since I heard about very strict immigrant laws and such I kinda got discouraged. Seems like US has very strict immigrant laws aswell though. People want to keep me from living in countries with good weather
As for the euro not being worth much overthere, does it differ alot? Like how far would i come with say 1500 euros. Less than a month?
You could get a permanent Visa I suppose. If you have some IT skills then the country could probably use you for some purpose, but I'd suggest just worrying about getting a work visa for now.

1500 EU is about $2700 NZD. You could live quite comfortably off that for a couple of months here. Three at a stretch. Ballpark $250-$300 NZD a week for a reasonable rent + expenses which is about 130-160 EU. If that sounds cheap, keep in mind the fact that your earning power will be proportionately less as well.

As an aside, If you think the country is filled with Lord of the Rings scenery, then you will be sorely disappointed. You'll probably end up in a city wherever you go, and one city is much the same as another in my book.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 01:29   #39
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Re: Working/moving abroad

1) We got elk, not moose.
2) Our health care might be "free", but its utter crap when it comes to actual healthcare, both on quality of treatment and the quality of the medicine men who perform it.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 03:58   #40
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Exclamation Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
It doesn't mention anything about sponsorship before participation of the lottery though.
It does seem kinda like a "flawed" system to base any plans on.
The key to working in the US is not to start with a work permit or a green card--start with getting a job. If you can get a company to hire you then the paperwork essentially becomes their problem. The companies I've worked for have hired dozens of foreign workers and they almost seem to enjoy pushing the mountains of paperwork around to make it happen (probably because it's always hard to find good IT people; especially now with unemployment so low).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Even if I could get more money in the US the tendency towards compulsory drug testing doesn't thrill me.
Because you'd fail?

In any case, I don't think compulsory drug testing is very common in the IT industry. At least, I've never heard of/worked for any company that did it.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 07:55   #41
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Thanks for all the answers, again. I'm gonna put off the thinking of moving completely and start considering a short work stay of 1-2 years like suggested. Is that a possibility in the US aswell though? Or is it only possible in australia/nz?
Greece would be an option aswell as mentioned, french guinea not as much because I really hate the french language (eventhough I'm supposed to have french as my 2nd language).

My "only" worry for that, is if I decide to move back and I have a gap of 1-2 years in my work resume and I'm applying for an IT job, the company in question might see that as a downside since the jobs I'd be getting for 1-2 years in a foreign country will unlikely be anything IT related.
Or won't they care much aslong as I know the stuff I need to know?
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 08:25   #42
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Is it possible to get a permanent visa for these countries?
I heard they have pretty strict immigrant laws aswell, originally New Zealand has always been my dream country, but since I heard about very strict immigrant laws and such I kinda got discouraged. Seems like US has very strict immigrant laws aswell though. People want to keep me from living in countries with good weather
As for the euro not being worth much overthere, does it differ alot? Like how far would i come with say 1500 euros. Less than a month?
You're a bit unlucky insofar as the AUD (and the NZD i imagine) have been appreciating against the Euro for a while now. But nevertheless, everythings reletively alot cheaper here (in australia at least ). In effect, with the exchange rates how they are, you win on exchange coming into australia, work for reletively less pay but everything costs less, but loose on the exchange rate on the way out. This isnt necessarily a bad thing though; if you're starting with a small amount of money (like 1500 euro), then you want that amplified before you can get a job and start working (saving up more than 1500 euro, which shouldnt be too hard), and then if your intention is to return to europe then you'll loose on the outward exchange, but you'll still have more than you did previously due to accumulating wealth whilst working and not incurring much costs whilst living.

In Perth, where i live, the probability that you'll find a job is effectively 100%. We have unemployment around the 3% level (it could be less now), and every business is moaning about not being able to find any staff. That, combined with annualised growth rates like 14% or more, and Western Australia is getting a little pricey (rents) due to inflation and whatnot, but iirc wages are still growing faster so its all good (ie, a real wage increase). Besides, its really easy to find more work (atm, i have three jobs and still studying full time at uni) if that's what you're looking for.

Other states in Australia arent in boom times though; New South Wales and Victoria is a bit stagnant, South Australia isnt much better. Queensland is a bit like WA but not as good as they're a bit strange up there - do you like steak? - (plus its humid in Brisbane, in Perth its more of a dry heat), and the weather is great for a european in Perth; except for 15 minutes today, it hasnt rained in about two weeks, and we are in high winter :\.

Additionally, i dont believe that work permits slash permerant residency is all that hard to achive, provided you are trying to go through the correct channels. Asylum seekers who arrive here via unauthorised boat travel are dealt with quite harshly (and thus perhaps the repulation as being stingy), but proper applicants are treated fairly generously to the extent of my knowledge. Posessing degrees and/or qualifications in certain areas (like teaching, plumbing, hairdressing and a few really random things left over from the cold war) generally add bonus points and make things easier.

I dont know about teaching English (or English lit) here in the normal school system would be a good idea for you, however running the IT department and/or teaching Information Systems or somesuch at high schools could easily be a possible course of action. You might need a diploma of education (or its equilivent) before you can teach, but there are courses available for you to do that whilst you're working at TAFE colleges and whatnot. If that's what you want to do, then there should be no worries.

So, in effect; Australia (at least, dunno about NZ) should be 1) reasonably easy to get into - you speak English well (based on your typing), if you've got an IT degree, if you intend to go to WA or QLD in particular, the exchange rate works in your favour (though less so than it used to), and you're pretty much certain to get a job here. The weather's good too.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 08:30   #43
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
My "only" worry for that, is if I decide to move back and I have a gap of 1-2 years in my work resume and I'm applying for an IT job, the company in question might see that as a downside since the jobs I'd be getting for 1-2 years in a foreign country will unlikely be anything IT related.
Or won't they care much aslong as I know the stuff I need to know?

Oops, hadnt read that far. To answer you, many businesses are looking for international experience (though like you said, generally within their field), but not exclusively so - working in another culture can help you with your communications, teamwork, tolerance and other skills that might be desired by (particularly large) corporations. Particularly if you let them know that you have those broader skills.

The idea i had - you working in IT within a school - is then a mixture of the two; it stays in your IT field, its experience in a foreign country, and should contribute positively to your application process.

Have a poke around: http://www.immi.gov.au/
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 10:43   #44
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Re: Working/moving abroad

You'd be better off immigrating to Australia than New Zealand. The wages are higher and its probably an easier country to get in to on the whole. In addition it might be easier to integrate into their culture, as there are large migrant populations (particularly in Sydney/Melbourne).

New Zealand is a pretty tolerant place, and we like people coming here to work. Our situation is pretty similar to Western Australia, in that we have low unemployment (3.6%) and high demand for skilled IT people. On average though, real wages in Australia are about a third higher, due (in part) to higher taxation and a smaller economy.

This does sound a little like a phase though. You might wake up in a week or a month's time and think 'gosh, what a silly idea'...
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 11:21   #45
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
This does sound a little like a phase though. You might wake up in a week or a month's time and think 'gosh, what a silly idea'...
Yeah it's very possible that it's a phase, that's why I said in my first post that it wasn't a real thought through idea. Even if it is gonna happen it will be for next year or even the year after (after my work here is "done") and will have to do alot more research and thinking. But you all have been very helpful so that if I do decide to do it I have some very good information to base my actions and decisions on.
Although I don't think I'll ever consider it to be a silly idea because it's been in the back of my mind for a while now, but I didn't think of actually realizing it until recently. The only reason why I haven't done it already is because of all the paperwork and problems it brings with it. We are made to believe that we live in a free world (free as in freedom, not as in no money), but the information in this thread for example prooves that because of bureaucracy and politics we are actually quite limited in our choices.

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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 12:04   #46
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Re: Working/moving abroad

tbh it sounds like you need an extended sabbatical. Go somewhere else for a year or two like you say, even if its as a student and not a proper job.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 12:32   #47
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Student applications could potentially be far more difficult to attain, plus far more temporary with other restrictions (adademic attendence, performance, less stuffing around, and they tend to get terminated at the immediate end of a semester)...

Work permits might be a better way to go - at least then you dont need to pay fees...
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Unread 14 Jun 2007, 01:02   #48
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Worked 7 months in Connecticut in U.S in 95. Worked without a greencard though. Don't recommend it (since it's against the law), but it were worth it. Had just quit my old job, and really didn't have much to loose on it.

Didn't have much money when i left, except for maybe 1000$, which i spent the week before i started working.

Since your from Belgium there should be many countries that you can work in , without needing something similar to the Green Card. Personally i have a dream about try working in Ireland, but never gotten that far yet.

Don't know how to say this on English, so plz forgive me for saying it on Norwegian, or pm me a translation if your able to:
Etter å ha sagt opp jobben min, kom eg til å gå glipp av arbeidsledighets trygd i 2 måneder, så eg tapte egentlig ikkje noe på å arbeide i USA.

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Unread 14 Jun 2007, 06:04   #49
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Re: Working/moving abroad

Waar kan ik heen, ik kan niet naar Duitsland
Kan niet naar Duitsland, daar zijn ze zo streng
Waar kan ik heen, ik kan niet naar Chili
Kan niet naar Chili, daar doen ze zo eng

'k Wil niet wonen in Koeweit
Want Koeweit dat is me te heet
En wat Amerika betreft
Dat land bestaat niet echt

Waar kan ik heen, 'k wil niet naar Noord-Ierland
Niet naar Noord-Ierland, daar gaat alles stuk
Waar kan ik heen, ik kan niet naar China
'k Wil niet naar China, dat is me te druk

'k Wil niet wonen in Schotland
Want Schotland dat is me te nat
En de USSSR
Dat gaat me net te ver

Refrein:
Is er leven op Pluto
Kun je dansen op de maan
Is er een plaats tussen de sterren
Waar ik heen kan gaan
Is er leven op Pluto
Kun je dansen op de maan
Is er een plaats tussen de sterren
Waar ik heen kan gaan

Waar kan ik heen, ik kan niet naar Cuba
'k Wil niet naar Cuba, dat is me te zoet
Waar kan ik heen, ik kan niet naar Polen
'k Wil niet naar Polen, daar gaat het te goed

'k Wil niet wonen in Lapland
Want Lapland dat is me te koud
En ik wil weg uit Nederland
Want hier krijg ik het benauwd

Refrein

'k Heb getwijfeld over België
Omdat iedereen daar lacht
'k Heb getwijfeld over België
Want dat taaltje is zo zacht

'k stond zelfs in dubio
Maar ik nam geen enkel risico
'k heb getwijfeld over België
'k stond zelfs in dubio
Maar ik nam geen enkel risico
'k heb getwijfeld over België

België
België
België
België



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Unread 14 Jun 2007, 06:17   #50
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Tietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better placeTietäjä single handedly makes these forums a better place
Re: Working/moving abroad

What the ****.
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