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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 15:17   #51
milo
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Re: the Union Forever?

Gordon Brown has actually been a pretty good CoE, i expect to get neg-repped for that but you know its true.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 15:17   #52
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Re: the Union Forever?

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Originally Posted by milo
the rest of the people of britain don't want the war in iraq and don't particularly like tony blair.
This is true but there are degrees of dislike. I think it's fair to say if a much larger proportion of Britain opposed the war, or opposed the war much more vehemently then it wouldn't have occurred (or at least, we wouldn't have been involved).
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 15:22   #53
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Re: the Union Forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
This is true but there are degrees of dislike. I think it's fair to say if a much larger proportion of Britain opposed the war, or opposed the war much more vehemently then it wouldn't have occurred (or at least, we wouldn't have been involved).

Well im pretty sure if everyone rioted in the street and 10% of all teenage girls cut up not across AND the labour party took notice and ousted TB we wouldn' have gone to war, but i doubt - revolution aside - any amount of peaceful protest would have affected the outcome. People protested in their millions.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 15:28   #54
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Re: the Union Forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm not sure how bigger governments are weaker though, or how the citizens of a (theoretically) more representative state are less likely to rebel/oppose government tyranny. Unless you mean a more diverse state is more likely to avoid despotic governments in the first place (which could be true).
In general all governments are weak, in terms of ease of manipulation so the government ends up oppressing its citizens. If anything I imagine "free" citizens of an unrepresentative government are more likely to rebel. The question then is what are they rebelling against, representation, for me, serves as a means to achieve and guarantee freedom. In the long run I don't think it's a sustainable approach though. It's very haphazard.

Quote:
Self-determination can't necessarily be elevated to the position of general rule, but it does serve well as a guiding principle. The issue with Scotland (and Northern Ireland, to an extent) is that the population does not seem to actually want to be independent. With Northern Ireland there's obviously issues around the gerrymandering of the borders, but then it's not clear if the south wants unification either for reasons Achilles mentioned.
It only serves well as a guiding principle pragmatically, people want x trivial thing so we might as well give it to them to keep them happy. Largely we just end up missing the point about governments in the first place.

Quote:
OK, Libertarianism 101 : Power is located wherever possible at the individual. Where there are some sort of shared interest which is managed collectively then surely we would want to organise this collective management in a manner which most people can agree with. If East Springfield feel they can organise rubbish collection better then the Springfield Municipality, why would we oppose that? Sure, there are interests where a privileged minority might want to leave a wider state to escape the burden of it's poorer neighbours, but that's more of an issue of solidarity, and right-libertarians don't care about that sort of thing anyway (presumably).
I don't hold with geographic ways of thinking in that area. It's much more if 16,725 people feel they can all do y they get to do it (presuming normal libertarian constraints in this area so I don't get a mindless "but what if they want to kill people lol" response*). Not if a majority of people in area z want y everyone has to do it.



*not that I think you'd make that point dear, I just worry about the internet at times.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 15:30   #55
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Re: the Union Forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
This is true but there are degrees of dislike. I think it's fair to say if a much larger proportion of Britain opposed the war, or opposed the war much more vehemently then it wouldn't have occurred (or at least, we wouldn't have been involved).
The important thing here concerned who opposed it though. If certain groups, potentially far smaller than the number who were against it, opposed the war on Iraq it probably wouldn't have gone ahead. Politics 101: everyone's equal until we start making money.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 15:45   #56
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Re: the Union Forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
but i doubt - revolution aside - any amount of peaceful protest would have affected the outcome. People protested in their millions.
Obviously there's no easy way of proving this, but I imagine that politicians take some account of how popular an action is before they engage. If they look at the polls and see that opinion is fairly mixed (the UK had one of the highest levels of support for intervention in Europe - even if it was in the minority) they might think it's worth a gamble. Indeed, after the invasion support for the war reached as high as 60% or 70% according to some polls. I remember on this forum for the first few months after the invasion various pro-war posters being smug about the great reception British troops had received in Basra.

Tony Blair is not totally insane, he just presumed that good results in the war would turn an already mixed British opinion in his favour. If the opposition for the war had been a lot stronger then I'm pretty sure things would have gone differently.

(Obviously Jonny is right, it's not just about numbers, but in this case they act as a useful placeholder. If middle England had been a lot stronger in it's opposition then I think he would have acted differently, given an election was only 2 years away.)
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 15:50   #57
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Re: the Union Forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I don't hold with geographic ways of thinking in that area. It's much more if 16,725 people feel they can all do y they get to do it (presuming normal libertarian constraints in this area so I don't get a mindless "but what if they want to kill people lol" response*). Not if a majority of people in area z want y everyone has to do it.
Well, it depends on the issue, obviously. Uber-simplistic example : If there is a block of flats with four leaseholders, and three of the four wish to take on ownership of the free-owner then all four become owners. It does mean the fourth might be taking on duties he might not want, but that's life. Obviously that doesn't mean the three can vote the fourth leaves, or the fourth has to have the internals of his flat painted pink or whatever. It might mean the three can vote to paint the communal front door pink though.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 15:58   #58
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Re: the Union Forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well, it depends on the issue, obviously. Uber-simplistic example : If there is a block of flats with four leaseholders, and three of the four wish to take on ownership of the free-owner then all four become owners. It does mean the fourth might be taking on duties he might not want, but that's life. Obviously that doesn't mean the three can vote the fourth leaves, or the fourth has to have the internals of his flat painted pink or whatever. It might mean the three can vote to paint the communal front door pink though.
The key difference is that all the leaseholders will have voluntarily decided to accept this form of democratic agreement when they bought their flat, rather than having had subjugation to the whims of the majority forced on them by accident of birth.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 16:00   #59
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Re: the Union Forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The key difference is that all the leaseholders will have voluntarily decided to accept this form of democratic agreement when they bought their flat.
Yeah, true but what if they were born in the flat and then their mum died, you didn't think of that did you?!!

But yeah. I don't really see the alternative though, if we have "shared facilities" at all, as in my allegorical front door.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 16:38   #60
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Re: the Union Forever?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
The ideal solution would be for Edinburgh to join England (since they would end up financailly supporting the rest of Scotland if they were to be stuck with them), and for the rest of Scotland to go away and form a third-world country somewhere.
Well that's a bit rich coming from a country that is now overwhelmed in certain counties by 2nd and 3rd generation 3rd world immigrants who now dictate the local government policies and religious policies of these areas. It is almost like establishing an independant colony of their own within England. They have little or no regard for English culture, tradition, law, politics or the views of the indigionous populace of these areas.
I have left the shores of the not so Great Britain a long time since, due to the general escalation of apathy, social decay, drug culture, violence, social benifit scrounging, and all the tax increases that are introduced almost on a daily basis, to sustain the cost of this crumbling society.
i say give Scotland its independance, Scots are less tolerant of this type of intrusion. i would like to see them do as most other countries do with regard to non nationals, give them no rights no finacial support and no free accomodation. that would be a nice starting point.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 16:50   #61
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Re: the Union Forever?

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Originally Posted by nack21
Well that's a bit rich coming from a country that is now overwhelmed in certain counties by 2nd and 3rd generation 3rd world immigrants who now dictate the local government policies and religious policies of these areas. It is almost like establishing an independant colony of their own within England. They have little or no regard for English culture, tradition, law, politics or the views of the indigionous populace of these areas.
I have left the shores of the not so Great Britain a long time since, due to the general escalation of apathy, social decay, drug culture, violence, social benifit scrounging, and all the tax increases that are introduced almost on a daily basis, to sustain the cost of this crumbling society.
i say give Scotland its independance, Scots are less tolerant of this type of intrusion. i would like to see them do as most other countries do with regard to non nationals, give them no rights no finacial support and no free accomodation. that would be a nice starting point.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 16:50   #62
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Re: the Union Forever?

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I think this alone is more than enough to justify Scottish independence.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 16:55   #63
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Thumbs up Re: the Union Forever?

Thank you gentelmen
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 16:57   #64
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Re: the Union Forever?

Long live England.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 17:01   #65
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Re: the Union Forever?

chavs, neds and other retards should always stick together imo.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 18:34   #66
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Re: the Union Forever?

manned space flight is nothing but a narcissistic folly
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 18:58   #67
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Re: the Union Forever?

Somewhere out there there's an advanced civilisation that has rediscovered religion in the desperate hope that humanity will never make it to another planet.







Especially horn's genes.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 19:11   #68
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Re: the Union Forever?

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more than a few people have said that i look like an alien
That isn't true, I saw pictures of you recently and you looked very normal. It's all in your head. Just take up meditation or something.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 19:27   #69
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Re: the Union Forever?

If anyone, and I'm including silversmoke in this, compares working out to meditation I'm going to hunt them down and rape them with a battleaxe.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 02:30   #70
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Re: the Union Forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
If anyone, and I'm including silversmoke in this, compares working out to meditation I'm going to hunt them down and rape them with a battleaxe.
The medical profession do. An hour of reasonable exercise three or more times a week causes a significant difference in brain chemistry, towards "happiness".

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Gordon Brown has actually been a pretty good CoE, i expect to get neg-repped for that but you know its true.
It's entirely possible that history will look upon this time as a disaster for the economy. The supposed national debt has been reduced, but only through cripplingly expensive PFI projects.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 06:16   #71
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Re: the Union Forever?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
The medical profession do. An hour of reasonable exercise three or more times a week causes a significant difference in brain chemistry, towards "happiness".
So does injecting yourself with endorphins but I still wouldn't compare that.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:23   #72
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Re: the Union Forever?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
So does injecting yourself with endorphins but I still wouldn't compare that.
I'm not sure if you're purposely pretending to be dense to make a funny :crymeariver:

Endorphins are a short-term effect.

Working out improves circulation, general fitness, and also doubles as time in which your brain isn't doing anything else except monitoring a repetitive action (like wankig lolo). So during this time your brain can slow down and allows you to collect your thoughts.

I used to walk a mile or two to and from school each day, when I was working. I did it partly for the fitness, but also because I enjoyed the time I had on my own, when I could just go through the events of the day and analyse things like how my lessons could have gone better, or how I should plan for the next day/week's lessons.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:43   #73
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Re: the Union Forever?

I didn't see it was a bad thing to work out or walk. I said anyone comparing it to meditation would receive a battleaxe in the bum and I stand by that.

Also your posts are getting increasingly spasticated tk.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 17:10   #74
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Re: the Union Forever?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I didn't see it was a bad thing to work out or walk. I said anyone comparing it to meditation would receive a battleaxe in the bum and I stand by that.
My posts have always been spasticated.

You haven't given your reasons for believing that working out and meditation have nothing in common (so therefore aren't deserving of comparison).
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 17:19   #75
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Re: the Union Forever?

I didn't see they weren't possible to compare. You can compare pretty much anything with pretty much anything else. I just said I'd hunt you down and rape you with a battleaxe if you did.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 17:44   #76
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Re: the Union Forever?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's entirely possible that history will look upon this time as a disaster for the economy. The supposed national debt has been reduced, but only through cripplingly expensive PFI projects.

They classify that as investment though, golden rule and all that. Their argument is they aren't just throwing the money at the civil service to increase wages etc, but rather 'investing' in infrastructure, science and the like. Theres some economic theory somewhere thats meant to say it pays itself off.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 18:09   #77
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Re: the Union Forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
They classify that as investment though, golden rule and all that. Their argument is they aren't just throwing the money at the civil service to increase wages etc, but rather 'investing' in infrastructure, science and the like. Theres some economic theory somewhere thats meant to say it pays itself off.
The counterargument is that they're paying a lot more money for less performance and less control. It's not a coincidence that a significant number of the civil servents who drew up the first PFI (and rail privatisation) guidelines and requirements have left to the private sector they were regulating.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 18:31   #78
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Re: the Union Forever?

Fair enough, though its worth pointing out PFI wasn't Gordon Browns 'idea' the first tranches were started by the tories.


edit in a vaguely parallel discussion regarding iraq, stiglitz pointed out a rather amusing situation thats developed between PMCs, the us military and the DOD. The DOD awards contracts to PMCs to do work in iraq because, amongst other things it relieves political pressure (less troops) the PMCs pay more than the us military, so it increases the incentment to leave the army. Basically the DoD has set up a market with their own 'national organs' the us army/marines etc in direct competition with private military contractors. Instead of competition decreasing the cost to the customer (the DoD) the 'mark-up' put on contracts by PMCs because of the danger means costs escalate. As with anything closed to the market and controlled by the government, the us army was able to artifically keep costs down, by introducing the market to this situation costs have risen to reflect the actual danger. GG etc.
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