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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 17:16   #1
Ärketrollmannen
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Odd moms

I was reading the paper an hour ago and came upon this Strange

My question is really, can this be defended in any way? Are the dangers of junkfood doubted in the UK? Can a parent who loves their child really do this with a clear conscience?

Maybe I am brainwashed by the Swedish press but to me this seems to be bordering child abuse.
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 17:28   #2
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
I was reading the paper an hour ago and came upon this Strange

My question is really, can this be defended in any way? Are the dangers of junkfood doubted in the UK? Can a parent who loves their child really do this with a clear conscience?

Maybe I am brainwashed by the Swedish press but to me this seems to be bordering child abuse.

god im becoming nodrog by the day but shitty statist conformism whereby parents are ridiculed if not prosecuted ('its bordering child abuse') for what they feed their ****ing children may be acceptable in sweden but ill be damned if ill play along in this country. Infact the patronising way you're seemingly given approval for eating properly makes me want to eat a bigmac just to **** jamie oliver off.
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 17:32   #3
Ärketrollmannen
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Re: Odd moms

But parents DO have a responsibility to protect and guide their children don't they?
The kids are minors, they are not expected to be able to take care of themselves, if their parents feed them crap wich gives them diabetes, bad knees etc it IS a problem.
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 17:47   #4
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
But parents DO have a responsibility to protect and guide their children don't they?
The kids are minors, they are not expected to be able to take care of themselves, if their parents feed them crap wich gives them diabetes, bad knees etc it IS a problem.

personally i believe that if you give an individual control of another human being they should be allowed to do whatever the **** they want with them, if it bothers you the kids are getting fat give the kids the ability to walk away and set up their own life
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 18:07   #5
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Re: Odd moms

I eat junkfood on a daily basis.. I'm not fat.. i'm not dieing.. What's the fkin problem

My breakfast consists of chocolate bars, seriously
you can eat them faster then sandwiches and they give quite a bit of energy
I eat burgers or 'kroketten' when I'm at central station after school
And I seem to manage just fine
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 18:26   #6
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Re: Odd moms

it's the sun.
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 18:29   #7
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Re: Odd moms

I think it's more wrong to deny kids one of the main pleasures in life








*I'm still talking about junkfood
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 18:54   #8
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Re: Odd moms

Schemie is a schemie, junk food is junk.
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 19:12   #9
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
But parents DO have a responsibility to protect and guide their children don't they?
You have a point, but you're on dangerous territory here.

What is it you would suggest next? Prison for parents who 'abuse' their children by smoking? It's damaging for the children aswell, or am I misinterpreting your line of reasoning here?
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 20:22   #10
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Re: Odd moms

The parents doing this are complete idiots - I've heard them talking on the radio:
"i don't care that my kids get fat, so long as they are eating what they want"

Those type of parents are the reason we have a growing crime rate amongst teenagers, growing teenage pregnancies, growing teenage obesity and growing problems in school.
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 21:01   #11
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Re: Odd moms

yeah i hear bigmacs are about as morish as heroin and make you randier than viagra, once they start they can't get enough and nothing stands in the way of the next hit.
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 21:25   #12
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Re: Odd moms

There's no real need to equate things to child abuse in order to say they're a bit shit. Obviously there's a balance here and it's only going to be a staggeringly small minority which constitute anything even approaching abuse.

As always, rather than condeming the moral failings of our fellow citizens we might want to look at why these (perhaps worrying) trends exist. We can shrug out shoulders and say it's individual choice but that's not going to cure the horrible tide of fatties (or the accompany public health fascism) now is it?

(Having said all that, I eat junkfood every day and I'm not particularly fat although apparently London has the lowest levels of obesity in UK so maybe it's the pollution.)
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 21:43   #13
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
In a one-off programme, Return to Jamie's School Dinners, to be screened on Channel Four tomorrow night, Oliver rants about how parents are "arseholes" and "tossers" for giving their children fizzy drinks and crisps. His fury was prompted by an off-screen exchange with a mother he met during filming who was giving her one-year-old child Coca-Cola and said she would not make shepherd's pie because it was "too posh".

Reading this was the moment that I was certain that Jamie Oliver was right.
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 23:26   #14
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Re: Odd moms

freedom means the freedom to make the wrong choices.
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Unread 17 Sep 2006, 23:29   #15
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Reading this was the moment that I was certain that Jamie Oliver was right.

my child turns 1 year old this week, he has yet to have a single THING in his entire diet that isnt entirely natural, someone giving a 1 year old coke should be ****ing shot imo


and those parents should be forced to take a long hard look at what they are doing to their children.

(they again, i have always been of the opinion that obese children are being abused and should be taken into care unless the parents can be shown that a better way does exist)


and in what ****ing world in shepherds pie posh?
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 00:33   #16
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
and in what ****ing world in shepherds pie posh?
In a world where taking the time and effort to do someting rather then getting it ready made is scorned upon.
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 00:35   #17
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
freedom means the freedom to make the wrong choices.


not when those choices impinge on the "rights" of others though
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 01:57   #18
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Re: Odd moms

the other big issue with that particular school is that its in a poor area ant the cost of the posh nosh now being served is higher than for the food b4 they banned chips etc.
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 02:02   #19
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Re: Odd moms

All that these programmes by Jamie Oliver and Ian Wright achieve is proving beyond doubt that we have some ****ing idiots in this country who need a ****ing slap and I'm not talking about the presenters.

The fact we need TV shows to point out common sense to people FFS.
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 09:05   #20
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
the other big issue with that particular school is that its in a poor area ant the cost of the posh nosh now being served is higher than for the food b4 they banned chips etc.
If they can't afford to eat then they should get free school meals surely?

And my secondary school was in a poor area and I'm sure burger and chips used to cost over £1.
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 12:10   #21
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Re: Odd moms

@Milo: Should the right to "do whatever the **** they want with them" be extended into physical/mental abuse as well?

@Alessio: It is not only the extra fat that is dangerous. Too much sugar causes diseases such as Diabetes. It might not show now, but in the future. Obviously it should be a risk YOU can take, what I'm talking about is minors who aren't trusted with any other life threatening activity (driving cars, owning guns, drinking alcohol, joining the army or even working the same hours as adults)

@hook: Point taken. I am actually not suggesting anything, I am just trying to understand the british way of thinking here.

@Yahwe: That is obviously correct, but we DO draw the line when someone is a threat toward the health of other people. I'm really just trying to see WHERE the people of Britain want to draw that line.
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 13:17   #22
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
personally i believe that if you give an individual control of another human being they should be allowed to do whatever the **** they want with them, if it bothers you the kids are getting fat give the kids the ability to walk away and set up their own life

dear god i hope u dont have children
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 13:50   #23
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
personally i believe that if you give an individual control of another human being they should be allowed to do whatever the **** they want with them
This is utterly idiotic when you're talking about very young children.

But anyway, we don't "give" anything to anyone so this is misleading. Of course parents are the natural guardians of their offspring but this role can be usurped in certain circumstances (i.e. if they are abusive/severely negligent).
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 14:42   #24
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
IMaybe I am brainwashed by the Swedish press but to me this seems to be bordering child abuse.
Yeah my mum once gave me a bar of chocolate when I was a kid, if only I had thought to call the police

Also in a proper country a government school which forbade people from leaving the premises even with their parents permission would get torn apart in court. Lets not get distracted from what the real problem is here.
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 14:47   #25
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
@Alessio: It is not only the extra fat that is dangerous. Too much sugar causes diseases such as Diabetes. It might not show now, but in the future. Obviously it should be a risk YOU can take, what I'm talking about is minors who aren't trusted with any other life threatening activity (driving cars, owning guns, drinking alcohol, joining the army or even working the same hours as adults)
There's a fairly big difference between (eg) joining the army and eating a hamburger. The others that you listed are fairly dubious though; there isnt really any problem with children owning guns as long as they have been responsibly trained although I can understand the justification against not letting them carry it in public, anyone who can pass a driving test should be able to drive a car regardless of age, there's no obvious problem with 12 year olds drinking alcohol and most people get drunk underage anyway without incurring any "life-threatening" injuries, and when I was 15-18 me and my friends used to get extremely pissed off at pointless laws which stopped us getting decent part time/summer job and earning spending money.

WIth the exception of maybe hard drugs like heroin, sex with adults, and child labour, I dont think there are many things which justify government legislation to prevent kids under the age of 15 doing with parental permission (and obviously anyone older than that should be able to do whatever they like). In extreme cases where abuse is demonstrable authorities should step in, but letting your 12 year old smoke weed with his friends or allowing a 10 year old to eat a few hamburgers or have a can of beer is not 'abuse' by any rational standard.

Last edited by Nodrog; 18 Sep 2006 at 14:59.
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 15:51   #26
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
This is utterly idiotic when you're talking about very young children.

But anyway, we don't "give" anything to anyone so this is misleading. Of course parents are the natural guardians of their offspring but this role can be usurped in certain circumstances (i.e. if they are abusive/severely negligent).

'very young' doesn't mean anything to me though, when an individual reaches the point where they have the ability to rationalise decisions for themselves they should be allowed to start leading independant lives, i couldn't really care less if that was at 8 or 18. You may ask for an 'objective test'* to be taken to determine whether that point has been reached but anyone should be allowed to take it regardless of how young they are.






*both written and perhaps an interview with a councilor.



edit im suggesting something similar to the gillick/fraser competence in medical treatment.
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Unread 18 Sep 2006, 16:17   #27
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
'very young' doesn't mean anything to me though
OK, well someone on this thread mentioned a child of one year old. I'm counting that as very young. And we're not talking about people making decisions for themselves (at least, not entirely) we're talking about adults making decisions on their behalf. You already said that people who "control" other people should be able to do what they want. Taken to it's logical conclusion someone should be able to murder their children by feeding them a poisonous amount of salt (as has been claimed in cases in the past).

(Of course you're right and the arguments in this thread aren't just about children - they could applied to severely mentall retarded people who aren't in a fit position to make decisions for themselves.)
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 11:04   #28
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
But parents DO have a responsibility to protect and guide their children don't they?
The kids are minors, they are not expected to be able to take care of themselves, if their parents feed them crap wich gives them diabetes, bad knees etc it IS a problem.
Oh dear, you've used the 'R' word. Responsibility is fast becoming a thing of the past as far as many 'parents' are concearned. It is certainly not taught in schools at any stage. The UK is fast becoming a society where a person knows their rights down to the letter but can choose to ignore any responsibility they have to others, or indeed themselves.

The parents who take orders for chips etc at the school fence are not acting in the childrens best interest. Full stop. The school has introduced the rule that no child should leave the premises at lunch. The school has also worked hard to change the menu for school dinners and implemented this in order to get the kids eating a healthier diet. So maybe some of the kids don't like veg, or maybe think they don't like it because IMHO many kids have never tried eating it. Tough. The parents know the rules laid down by the school and by sending their kids there have, in effect, accepted the school rules governing their children for the entire school day.

What kind of example are these parents setting to their offspring by choosing to ignore the rules the kids don't like? Sadly this example is becoming the norm. If you don't like the rules just ignore them or find a lawyer to sue under the 'uman rights' act and get them changed. How will these kids manage later in life when employers set the rules? Timekeeping? "Don't fancy that boss!" Dress code? "I'll wear what I want mate!"

Whether these parents like it or not they are responsible for their children and one of the greatest responsibilities for a parent is making sure the child understands that they have responsibilities to themselves and others around them.

Without that simple understanding a child will be ill prepared for adulthood.
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 17:45   #29
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Re: Odd moms

Our society is one in which a child's welfare is deemed, by most, to be best guarded by the parents of that child - I would disagree with this view but it's quite embedded within the country's history and indeed in every day life - the form family takes has changed significantly over time and this is the form that has, to a large extent, been in place for many centuries.

There is no question that, as a child is growing up, it is learning about how society functions, it is learning how to communicate with other members of that society, it is learning about humans: how they live, their position on the planet, what they need to survive, how different humans develop differently and how rules of conducting oneself can differ. In this learning process, making mistakes inevitably plays a large part and being taught by the older generation is essential in any well-developed society. If we accept that a child is learning all these things, then we must also accept that they begin with no real understanding of any of them. If we pay attention to scientific evidence, then we will agree that a child's brain and body will have completed most of the essential developments required to be a full citizen by the end of adolescence, which is roughly at ages 16-19. We will also agree that diet has a large part to play in how the brain and body develops - for example, if you put heroin in your 6 year old's soup, you can expect them to have physical and mental issues when they're older. If you deprive your child of vitamins for a long period of time, then they're very likely to look quite ill and be less able to concentrate.

Now, if we're going to say whether it's right or wrong for parents to be told what to feed their children we need to agree on common criteria for what would be a 'good' outcome and what would be a 'bad' outcome. People are disagreeing because whilst some are seeing it as a choice between a healthy nation and an unhealthy nation, others are seeing it as a choice between parents having control over children and other people being involved in their child's upbringing, both of which are central to this question.

I personally do not see the benefit of defending, despite any consequent setbacks, the parent's right to possess their child and do with them what they will, over the flexibility and security of allowing many different institutions and individuals to have influence over what is deemed to be best for any given child. In any case, I believe the supreme right of parents over their children has undergone significant erosion over the last 150 years, from the Education Act in 1870 to the development of compulsory education, from social services to a national curriculum to government ran 'parenting lessons'. Now we are faced with a decision. Do we continue this trend, in considering that many children, through no fault of their own, are born to people who have never learnt (often through no fault of their own) how best to bring a child up to be healthy and lead a happy, prosperous life? Or should we reject that all children deserve some standards in their upbringing and protect, with little or no rational argument, leaving it to the discretion of parents as to how well or badly they prepare their child for later life?

Can no one else see hypocrisy in the fact that the people who are arguing that 'parents should have a right to teach their children what they like' are the same people who complain that 'most people in society are stupid'?
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 18:48   #30
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Re: Odd moms

I must say Nadval,
Your promise of creating a race of Übermenschen makes it very tempting to vote for food Fascism



On a sidenote, i heard gen-therapy can even keep your kids from turning gay!
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 19:19   #31
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
I must say Nadval,
Your promise of creating a race of Übermenschen makes it very tempting to vote for food Fascism



On a sidenote, i heard gen-therapy can even keep your kids from turning gay!
Because organising society to the indiscriminate benefit of its future generation somehow translates to 'food Fascism'? I don't quite get it, I'm not saying kill the people with poor diets - I'm saying help them get better diets. If you, as an adult, live on rubbish and are happy with it then I doubt there's much we can do to educate you, so you can sustain your endeavour for bad health. But we should be able to prevent you from inflicting your children with the same vices - try thinking of it in terms of drug addiction, on which the law takes a much harsher attitude than I would suggest is reasonable, yet people still find it easier to sympathise with the government's position.
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 19:40   #32
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadval
Because organising society to the indiscriminate benefit of its future generation somehow translates to 'food Fascism'? I don't quite get it, I'm not saying kill the people with poor diets - I'm saying help them get better diets.
You want to keep them from living their lives as they see fit,
because you know better then them
You know how the future generation should be raised, the rest doesn't

And we don't want to have any fatties in the future, they are bad enough as it is
They will get health problems sooner or later anyway

People like you make fat people feel bad about themselfs

Quote:
If you, as an adult, live on rubbish and are happy with it then I doubt there's much we can do to educate you, so you can sustain your endeavour for bad health.
I don't live on rubbish, I eat what tastes good
It's not an endeavour for badhealth, Íts trying to live your life to its fullest

Quote:
But we should be able to prevent you from inflicting your children with the same vices - try thinking of it in terms of drug addiction, on which the law takes a much harsher attitude than I would suggest is reasonable, yet people still find it easier to sympathise with the government's position.
Harddrugs destroy you mentally and physicly very rapid
And can't be compared with food

I believe people should be able to try softdrugs tho, its their own responsibility
Give people some freedom,
they will realise soon enough how far they can go and that theirs no point in going too far
When I was on holiday in spain i saw all those young british kids drink like crazy, half vodka bottles
Why do you think they do that? Why do you think dutchies arn't stoned all day?

People arn't stupid, as long as they know what their dealing with they can make those choises for themselfs

You can better focus on getting kids to sport, instead of msning on their fat asses all day
Give them an extra option instead of taking one
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Last edited by Alessio; 19 Sep 2006 at 20:16.
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 19:57   #33
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Exclamation Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitc
The parents who take orders for chips etc at the school fence are not acting in the childrens best interest. Full stop.
As decided by whom?
Quote:
What kind of example are these parents setting to their offspring by choosing to ignore the rules the kids don't like?
Um, the example of not being a mindless drone who believes in following all the rules because the State knows best?

The most interesting line in the article was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sun
Even the teachers go down to the sandwich shop or take their own lunches but the kids haven’t that choice.
So what kind of example are the teachers setting?

Q: Why aren't the teachers (and administrators) being forced to eat these healthy meals along with their students?
A: Probably because they wouldn't put up with it. Just like some of the parents aren't putting up with it.


As a parent, I want my children to eat healthy meals--but I want them to learn how to do that and why it's important. Coercion doesn't strike me as a particularly good educational strategy in this case (especially for older children--teenagers) because food is ubiquitous. Eventually children do grow up and will have to make their own choices. Big Brother won't be picking out their meals for them when they're adults (hopefully ). I don't see how taking food choices away from students teaches them how to make good food choices.

I think schools should provide predominately healthy foods and encourage children to eat them. Not allowing the parents the option to send a lunch with their children seems very wrong to me (what if the parents want to provide a healthier lunch than what the school provides? Under a state-knows-best/one-size-fits-all philosophy they can't do that).

Secondly, I think you have to put school lunches into the context of everything the child eats. In the case of my own children, they eat only about 15% of all their meals at school over the course of a year (the rest of their meals--breakfasts, suppers, weekends, holidays, summer break, etc. are eaten at home or otherwise outside of school). If children are eating healthy meals outside of school, then even if they eat junk food at school how much harm is it really going to do? Conversely, if they're eating (predominantly) junk food outside of school then forcing them to eat healthy food at school isn't likely to 'save' them from a lifetime habit of poor eating.

There's a tendency to (ab)use the school system to try to solve all of society's problems, and I'm afraid this is just one more example of that. For better or worse, parents are the primary teachers of eating habits and if the parents screw that up then you're just going to have to accept it; or if you're not willing to accept it then you're going to have to address the problem in the home and not just in the school (good luck with that).


FWIW, the lunches served in local schools around here aren't all that good. They're probably nutritionally balanced, but--like all institutional food--they're just not very tasty. They typically have an entrée that's a bit heavy on the fat and/or salt, a salad or an overcooked vegetable, some processed fruit, a small dessert, and milk. I suspect most of the children will drink the milk, eat the dessert, pick at the entrée, and mostly ignore the fruit and vegetables (which is probably exactly what they do at home).

I make lunches for my two children to take to school every school day. I know exactly what's in their lunch and what they will eat, but I'm under no illusions that I know exactly what they do eat. My daughter recently confessed that she often trades some of her fresh strawberries for a cookie. I wasn't overjoyed by this but I don't believe a cookie at lunch is going to destroy her health. My response has been to ask that she trade for only one cookie and to add a few more strawberries to her lunches (on the plus side, someone else's child is at least getting some fresh fruit :/).

Even if you control all the food that's allowed in the school, and even if you prohibit any sort of trading; you still can't force children to eat all or even any of the food. Ultimately the message is: 'eat healthy--or starve'.
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 20:24   #34
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
You want to keep them from living their lives as they see fit,
because you know better then them
You know how the future generation should be raised, the rest doesn't

And we don't want to have any fatties in the future, they are bad enough as it is
They will get health problems sooner or later anyway

People like you make fat people feel bad about themselfs
I didn't mention the word 'fat' once - I was talking about health and yes it seems that, unfortunately, I know more about what is healthy for children to eat than a lot of people. This isn't based on "I eat this and I'm doing great", but on practically unchallanged scientific evidence - If you hold information that suggests that a diet high in fat, sugar and salt is just as good as a balanced one with all the vitamins, minerals and nutrients one needs then please do so. Using your logic, one could say it's 'environmental fascism' for people to prescribe ways to tackle global warming, which would undoubtedly keep people from 'living their lives as they see fit'.
Quote:
I don't live on rubbish, I eat what tastes good
It's not an endeavour for badhealth, Íts trying to live your life to its fullest
It's a shame that 'what tastes good' isn't synonymous with what is healthy when consumed in excessive amounts. Drug addicts are just 'living their lives to the fullest', which I think is fine if that's what they want - as long as it doesn't harm others.
Quote:
Harddrugs destroy you mentally and physicly very rapid
And can't be compared with food
Some hard drugs destroy you mentally and physically very slowly, can these be compared with poor food?

poi‧son  /ˈpɔɪzən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[poi-zuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a substance with an inherent property that tends to destroy life or impair health.
2. something harmful or pernicious, as to happiness or well-being: the poison of slander.

drug (drg) Pronunciation Key
n.
1.A substance used in the diagnosis, treatment, or prevention of a disease or as a component of a medication.
Such a substance as recognized or defined by the U.S. Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.
2.A chemical substance, such as a narcotic or hallucinogen, that affects the central nervous system, causing changes in behavior and often addiction.

I'm not saying we should class excessive consumption of unhealthy food as drug-taking, but rather that the effects are not entirely different. The case of 'salt-poisoning' should be considered.

Quote:
If people want they can change their diet at anytime
The thing is, fat people eat more in general,
and you can't prevent that by keeping certain types of food away from them
That's why dieting often fails, and why certain diets allow people to eat junkfood

You can better focus on getting kids to sport, instead of msning on their fat asses all day
But wouldn't this be 'activity-fascism'? There are obviously a range of things that would make younger people more healthy, and all of them should be seriously considered in the education process. It has been highlighted by nutritionists and health experts that a lack of sports activities and excessively poor diets are perpetuating the trend of rising obesity, heart disease, and general poor health amongst young people - particularly in poorer areas. But doing anything to tackle this would make us fascists right?

Just to note on the 'fat' issue - I actually have a lot of sympathy for people who're deemed 'fat' and bullied for it. It isn't the health experts that are doing the bullying though, it is the fashion magazines, the TV adverts etc etc, which, it is worth noting, are also criticised for causing annorexia and other eating disorders. The two are seperate, but related, and it is a myth that fat == unhealthy. You're getting confused with obesity.
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 20:44   #35
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadval
But wouldn't this be 'activity-fascism'? There are obviously a range of things that would make younger people more healthy, and all of them should be seriously considered in the education process. It has been highlighted by nutritionists and health experts that a lack of sports activities and excessively poor diets are perpetuating the trend of rising obesity, heart disease, and general poor health amongst young people - particularly in poorer areas. But doing anything to tackle this would make us fascists right?
No, stimulating something isn't the same as forcing something, or even taking people's options
Sporting could be fun, or they can simply not sport
Getting denied junkfood isn't fun, and they cant do anything about it
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Last edited by Alessio; 19 Sep 2006 at 20:51.
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 20:48   #36
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Re: Odd moms

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Originally Posted by Tacitus
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I agree that it's no easy matter to get children to change their diets, but yours clearly are lucky enough to have parents who know what's good for them. Being honest, although my parents always advised my to eat well and ensured that I ate well at home, I still ate a whole lot of junk at school. Now, however, because of my upbringing I'm totally aware of why I won't be feeling great after a week of burgers and chips, and I'm equally aware of what I can eat to balance my diet out a bit. Just as importantly, I'm aware of what I should feed my children, in order to teach them the same vital lessons.

It is all very well saying 'eventually children will have to grow up and make their own choices', when 60% of children aren't being taught, at home or at school, the information they need to make a choice that will benefit them. I agree with you that it seems a little extreme to lock children in school, ban packed lunches and tell them to eat healthily or starve. However, at such an important institution as a school I think it is necessary for them to promote certain types of diet and teach children what the setbacks are to having a poor diet. People are getting concerned that poor health is rising, so clearly something needs to change if we're going to reverse the trend and, looking at what is commonly served in school canteens and the lack of effective teaching on nutrition it is unsurprising that research is showing such results.

It might be worth considering that it is only in the last 6 years that schools have been able to have vending machines - why? Because the companies that run school catering complained about low profits. Now that Jamie Oliver's highlighted these issues (however much I hate him, he's fighting a worthy cause) and the government are banning vending machines in schools, the companies want compensation for the loss in profits.

In fact, it might be worth considering why McDonalds/Coke/Nestle etc put so many unhealthy things in their drinks/food - which is for the very reason that it has become a problem - it's addictive. Companies are bound to put anything in their products which will make them sell more and for which they cannot be sued. The onus is thus on parents, government and schools to ensure that children's access to dangerously addictive and unhealthy food is limited, whilst they're taught the reasons why.
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Unread 19 Sep 2006, 20:58   #37
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadval
one could say it's 'environmental fascism' for people to prescribe ways to tackle global warming, which would undoubtedly keep people from 'living their lives as they see fit'.
I do believe that actually, most of the global warming is caused by nature itself, and only marginally by us
And as long as China and co keep polluting like they do it's impossible to tackle the problem

Just like with changing food in schools, you don't tackle the problem with it
You won't stop people from getting fat,
not as long as kids have parents that feed them to much

It is a way to make sure they get in atleast some proper food in yeah
But you could also have a little faith in their parents
their plenty more other meals during the day that could give them the nutrition they need
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Last edited by Alessio; 19 Sep 2006 at 21:12.
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 03:19   #38
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Re: Odd moms

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Lets not get distracted from what the real problem is here.
That a lot of modern countries seem to be evolving into societies where convenience is becoming the dominant factor in a myriad of choices, and as a result, responsibility is regarded as something to be best held by others?
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 03:55   #39
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
That a lot of modern countries seem to be evolving into societies where convenience is becoming the dominant factor in a myriad of choices, and as a result, responsibility is regarded as something to be best held by others?
It strikes me as being a lot more convenient to stay at home and let your kid eat horrible meals than it is to drive over to school every lunchtime and run a pirate food enterprise, but hey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadval

It is all very well saying 'eventually children will have to grow up and make their own choices', when 60% of children aren't being taught, at home or at school, the information they need to make a choice that will benefit them.
What information do you think theyre lacking? That brussel sprouts are better for you than hamburgers? That eating too many Mars Bars makes you a fatty? Pretty much everyone over the age of 8 knows that; they just dont care, and I dont really understand why you care that they dont care. Some people value physical health more than others, and fat people are generally fat out of choice, not because there's some crucial item of knowledge that they're lacking (other than how to best lose weight).

I would agree that most people are misinformed about what a healthy diet looks like, but repeating the same old wives tales about "eat 3 healthy meals a day"/"one item from each food group per meal"/"dont eat too much meat"/etc isnt going to change this. Neither is forcing people to eat food that they dont want to eat, or to care more about health than they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadval
In fact, it might be worth considering why McDonalds/Coke/Nestle etc put so many unhealthy things in their drinks/food - which is for the very reason that it has become a problem - it's addictive. Companies are bound to put anything in their products which will make them sell more and for which they cannot be sued. The onus is thus on parents, government and schools to ensure that children's access to dangerously addictive and unhealthy food is limited, whilst they're taught the reasons why.
Unless the chocolate is being secretely laced with morphine, I think its more than slightly dishonest to describe sweets and crisps as being 'addictive', let alone dangerously so.

edit:

Quote:
In any case, I believe the supreme right of parents over their children has undergone significant erosion over the last 150 years, from the Education Act in 1870 to the development of compulsory education, from social services to a national curriculum to government ran 'parenting lessons'. Now we are faced with a decision. Do we continue this trend, in considering that many children, through no fault of their own, are born to people who have never learnt (often through no fault of their own) how best to bring a child up to be healthy and lead a happy, prosperous life? Or should we reject that all children deserve some standards in their upbringing and protect, with little or no rational argument, leaving it to the discretion of parents as to how well or badly they prepare their child for later life?
Since you apparently beleive that these previous government initiatives have failed to produce a nation of people capable of making basic choices such as what to feed their children, I'm curious as to why you think that 'more government' is going help matters.

Quote:

Can no one else see hypocrisy in the fact that the people who are arguing that 'parents should have a right to teach their children what they like' are the same people who complain that 'most people in society are stupid'?
No, since I would cite things like the development of state education and the national curriculum as being significant causes in most people's stupidty.

Last edited by Nodrog; 20 Sep 2006 at 04:32.
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 09:43   #40
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Unless the chocolate is being secretely laced with morphine, I think its more than slightly dishonest to describe sweets and crisps as being 'addictive', let alone dangerously so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_addiction
http://www.medical-library.net/sites...addiction.html
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 09:51   #41
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
What information do you think theyre lacking? That brussel sprouts are better for you than hamburgers? That eating too many Mars Bars makes you a fatty? Pretty much everyone over the age of 8 knows that; they just dont care, and I dont really understand why you care that they dont care. Some people value physical health more than others, and fat people are generally fat out of choice, not because there's some crucial item of knowledge that they're lacking (other than how to best lose weight).

I would agree that most people are misinformed about what a healthy diet looks like, but repeating the same old wives tales about "eat 3 healthy meals a day"/"one item from each food group per meal"/"dont eat too much meat"/etc isnt going to change this. Neither is forcing people to eat food that they dont want to eat, or to care more about health than they do.
The problem here is that while they might not be lacking information they're lacking meaningful information. If every Mars bar came with a "this takes 2 weeks off your life" warning parents might actually grasp it better. Also they appear to be idiots "They’re not even allowed out at lunchtimes to buy something they can enjoy. Food is cheaper and better at the local takeaways.”
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 10:45   #42
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
It strikes me as being a lot more convenient to stay at home and let your kid eat horrible meals than it is to drive over to school every lunchtime and run a pirate food enterprise, but hey.
Unless they are worried that if the more healthy meals being served at school are a trend that is going to catch on, they will suddenly be required to actually start paying attention to what they eat and will be expected to start working on healthy meals themselves, instead of just sending their children off to the local fastfood department of choice.

If you can seriously state that a local McDonald's or Burger King serves better quality, more nutricious and healthy food as composed as to the meals Jamie Oliver has set up in accordance with the school, you're either incredibly stupid or trying to cover up your own unwillingness to put any effort into a proper meal.
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 11:17   #43
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Unless they are worried that if the more healthy meals being served at school are a trend that is going to catch on, they will suddenly be required to actually start paying attention to what they eat and will be expected to start working on healthy meals themselves, instead of just sending their children off to the local fastfood department of choice.
This is completely plausible, in fact, since starting school and having school dinners my son is now not only willing to try new fruits and vegetables he is proactive in deciding the household food shop. Believe me, it's far more satisfying to have a child ask for cauliflower rather than 'cheesestrings' or 'sunny-d'. Seeing his friends eating something he's unsure of give him the confidence to try it himself. Positive peer pressure in action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
If you can seriously state that a local McDonald's or Burger King serves better quality, more nutricious and healthy food as composed as to the meals Jamie Oliver has set up in accordance with the school, you're either incredibly stupid or trying to cover up your own unwillingness to put any effort into a proper meal.
Or you work for MCd's marketing dept.
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 11:54   #44
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Re: Odd moms

The wikipedia article says that there is no conclusive evidence that sugary foods are addictive in humans, and the second link is just a rant that belongs in the same category as the "gambling is addictive" nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
The problem here is that while they might not be lacking information they're lacking meaningful information. If every Mars bar came with a "this takes 2 weeks off your life" warning parents might actually grasp it better.
Well that would be an obvious lie, so I suppose it would fit in with the rest of the government drug policies. Maybe if you put on the front of them "dont eat 5 of these a day or youll get fat" then most people wouldnt eat 5 of them a day, but then they dont anyway. Stuff like mars bars already has the nutritional information on the side, and anyone who cares about health already knows that they should eat around 2500 calories a day if they want to maintain weight, not too much sugar or saturated fat etc etc.

Quote:
Also they appear to be idiots "They’re not even allowed out at lunchtimes to buy something they can enjoy. Food is cheaper and better at the local takeaways.”
This is probably true, since there's no natianwide discourse where 'good' in the context of food meant 'healthy'. A nice restaurant will have better food than Jamie Oliver's fish fingers, but this doesnt necessarily mean it'll be more nutritous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Unless they are worried that if the more healthy meals being served at school are a trend that is going to catch on, they will suddenly be required to actually start paying attention to what they eat and will be expected to start working on healthy meals themselves, instead of just sending their children off to the local fastfood department of choice.
Yeah that's definitely the motivation, nice work Sigmund.

Last edited by Nodrog; 20 Sep 2006 at 12:01.
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 12:07   #45
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Unless the chocolate is being secretely laced with morphine, I think its more than slightly dishonest to describe sweets and crisps as being 'addictive', let alone dangerously so.
Addictive is one of those words that's mis and over-use has rendered it pretty meaningless, but certain foods definitely seem to be incredibly hard to give up for certain people (in the same sense that something like gambling might be). Sweet and fatty foods certainly give people a certain type of mild euphoria (or comfort) in the same sense that certain drugs seem to give people. But then I'm not sure if "addiction" is a useful term to use in discussions like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Unless they are worried that if the more healthy meals being served at school are a trend that is going to catch on, they will suddenly be required to actually start paying attention to what they eat and will be expected to start working on healthy meals themselves, instead of just sending their children off to the local fastfood department of choice.
This could be the reasoning (of course, I don't know their motivation and any attempt to "guess" regarding people you've never met is usually ridiculous) but if we're being ridiculous then I think this is also about how people see themselves.

I mean, if there's a campaign against (say) drug use among kids which is something along the lines of "If you take drugs then you will mess up your life, die early, generally be a loser, and everyone will hate you!" then I (as a druggie parent) can take one of two approaches. Firstly I can say "Well, I don't want my kids to live the same life as I do, so it's important they stay clear of drugs..." or I can say "Well, I took/take drugs, and I'm OK, why shouldn't my kids be like me? Are you saying something is wrong with me?". The latter opinion I suspect might dominate among this sort of crowd.

A lot of these healthy eating (and environmental) campaigns is generally geared towards the notion of "You and your lifestyle is sick, selfish and wrong and you should be ashamed of yourself." While in some cases that might indeed be true, I'm not sure if it's going to win many people over.
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 12:19   #46
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Re: Odd moms

isn't tax the governments standard way of putting people off a product?

why isn't that done here?
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 12:23   #47
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Re: Odd moms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Addictive is one of those words that's mis and over-use has rendered it pretty meaningless, but certain foods definitely seem to be incredibly hard to give up for certain people (in the same sense that something like gambling might be). Sweet and fatty foods certainly give people a certain type of mild euphoria (or comfort) in the same sense that certain drugs seem to give people. But then I'm not sure if "addiction" is a useful term to use in discussions like this.
Well there's a certain trivial sense in which anything that people enjoy can be called 'addictive', in that they dont want to give it up. Most people are addicted to sex, Michael Jordan is addicted to basketball, and so on. But the only real reason to talk in this manner is if youre trying to score points in an "X is Bad"-style debate; there's a fairly obvious difference between physical addiction (in the sense of morphine/nicotine/etc), and psychological addiction, even though the the line can be blurred in some cases and psychological addiction is presumably mediated by physical symptoms.

Quote:
I mean, if there's a campaign against (say) drug use among kids which is something along the lines of "If you take drugs then you will mess up your life, die early, generally be a loser, and everyone will hate you!" then I (as a druggie parent) can take one of two approaches. Firstly I can say "Well, I don't want my kids to live the same life as I do, so it's important they stay clear of drugs..." or I can say "Well, I took/take drugs, and I'm OK, why shouldn't my kids be like me? Are you saying something is wrong with me?". The latter opinion I suspect might dominate among this sort of crowd.
And the balanced position would be to assess the claims the school is making, and act accordingly. Most drug 'information' provided in schools is just propaganda verging on outright lies, so the parents would be justified in questioning it, regardless of whether they were druggies. Similarly a parent is fairly justified in questioning whether being forced to eat boiled cabbage rather than a packed lunch is going to have a noticable positive effect on the kid in the long run (rather than, eg, turning them against the desire to be healthy by propagating the cultural myth that healthy food tastes bad). If the parents were objecting to the school telling students that being fat is bad for you in the long run and that some degree of nutritional eating aids health then that would be a different matter, since this is actually true.
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 13:09   #48
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Re: Odd moms

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Well there's a certain trivial sense in which anything that people enjoy can be called 'addictive', in that they dont want to give it up. Most people are addicted to sex, Michael Jordan is addicted to basketball, and so on. But the only real reason to talk in this manner is if youre trying to score points in an "X is Bad"-style debate;
I'd argue here the important issue is : how damaging the pursuit is in "normal" doses and how damaging the pursuit is if you do too much (and linked to this, how easy it is to do too much). Playing video games isn't at all damaging at moderate levels and for most people keeping it under control doesn't seem problematic. So even if it's addictive (which certain games seem to be, if we're using addiction in the habit forming sense) it doesn't really matter. But something like gambling even at moderate levels can be pretty damaging to the users life. Likewise something amphetamines seem OK at a low regular dose, but then it seems quite easy for people to accelerate their use.

Anyway the thing is that kids are pretty fascist and fatties are always going to be bullied which is much more of an incentive to lose weight than any shitty Jamie Oliver regime.
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 14:38   #49
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Re: Odd moms

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Anyway the thing is that kids are pretty fascist and fatties are always going to be bullied which is much more of an incentive to lose weight than any shitty Jamie Oliver regime.
Fact of life...i propose we script a TV program to raise awareness of what happens to fat kids at school. That'll show mummy.
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Unread 20 Sep 2006, 15:01   #50
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Re: Odd moms

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Originally Posted by Furious
Fact of life...i propose we script a TV program to raise awareness of what happens to fat kids at school. That'll show mummy.
Can we call it "the life of Idimmu" ?
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