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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:26   #51
JonnyBGood
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
I don't think technology in and of itself would have any influence on social behaviour any more so than currently.
Technology has had an influence on social behaviour though. Perhaps could you state what you mean by "social behaviour"?
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:29   #52
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by Nantoz
Last time I checked there was still a difference between Normandy and Brittany, though....
Did I say Brittany? F...

Ignore that reply, it's bollocks!
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:32   #53
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
You don't necessarily have to be in a social grouping to be a category of individual.
I would put it to you that, without social groupings, arbitrary categories made by your qualities or preferences are empirically the same, from the point of view of anyone in the system, as having no categories at all.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:33   #54
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
I don't think technology in and of itself would have any influence on social behaviour any more so than currently.
People said that 20, 50, 100 years ago and they were very wrong.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:38   #55
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Technology has had an influence on social behaviour though. Perhaps could you state what you mean by "social behaviour"?
Good point. I meant that technology hasn't really affected normal social behaviour such as social norms or taboos. Societies have adapted to technology, and perhaps given people a chance to increase the amount of socializing they do, but technology does not define who they are, unless they're a "computer nerd/geek". Of course I will point out and save the trouble, it has led to many "online social groups", but that's what it is, a group, just like a football team is a group, and not considered a major society.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:38   #56
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I would put it to you that, without social groupings, arbitrary categories made by your qualities or preferences are empirically the same, from the point of view of anyone in the system, as having no categories at all.
I disagree. There can be different behaviour patterns (based on these categories) without different social groupings. Using my example above, people who are left handed might behave slightly differently to any right-handed person yet still statistically have the same proportion of right/left handed associates than any other person. Or perhaps more meaningfully women and men. Definitely different categories yet not necessarily (although obviously often) different social groups.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:44   #57
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Definitely different categories yet not necessarily (although obviously often) different social groups.
You're misunderstanding what I'm getting at.

If there was no interaction between any members of the human race, then these distinctions would, effectively, not exist.

They would obviously still exist in abstract, but with noone to observe them, why would it matter?
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:46   #58
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
I meant that technology hasn't really affected normal social behaviour such as social norms or taboos.
Social norms and taboos change over time anyway, and I would argue that the dropping of some social taboos, especially in england, came from observing other cultures on television, most notably the yanks.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:46   #59
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
You don't necessarily have to be in a social grouping to be a category of individual. 'Left handed people' are a category of people yet they obviously don't live in any sort of distinct social grouping. Perhaps slightly less extremely you have people who are classical music fans who don't want autonomy from rock fans (or whatever).
I love being left-handed, I'm always in my right mind.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:49   #60
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Social norms and taboos change over time anyway, and I would argue that the dropping of some social taboos, especially in england, came from observing other cultures on television, most notably the yanks.
Yet us Yanks are still overly represive of sexuality in general, sure we put out lots of adult films, but it's still considered a taboo to watch them.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:51   #61
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
Good point. I meant that technology hasn't really affected normal social behaviour such as social norms or taboos. Societies have adapted to technology, and perhaps given people a chance to increase the amount of socializing they do, but technology does not define who they are, unless they're a "computer nerd/geek". Of course I will point out and save the trouble, it has led to many "online social groups", but that's what it is, a group, just like a football team is a group, and not considered a major society.
What do you mean by major society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
Yet us Yanks are still overly represive of sexuality in general, sure we put out lots of adult films, but it's still considered a taboo to watch them.
This doesn't really counter what mark said.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:00   #62
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What do you mean by major society?
Well a generalization of major society would be a country, but it could also be an ethnic group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This doesn't really counter what mark said.
It wasn't meant to counter what he said.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:02   #63
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
Well a generalization of major society would be a country, but it could also be an ethnic group.
I think you're considering far, far too large groups here. Over the whole of the UK, for example, the majority of people don't go to football matches or watch it on television. Does this mean that the UK doesn't like football?
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:05   #64
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If there was no interaction between any members of the human race, then these distinctions would, effectively, not exist.
Ah, I see, my apologies.

I do not see how human beings could exist without interaction with other members of human race in some form. You mention technology but that is interaction with other human beings (albeit abstracted). Similarly, culture is interaction with other people, albeit often human beings who are dead.

Of course, if you were the last human being alive living on an alien world with no interaction with any facet of human existence (either past or present) then you would not be in a subcategory but I'm not sure that's a particularly meaningful example.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:09   #65
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I do not see how human beings could exist without interaction with other members of human race in some form.
It doesn't really matter if they don't; if they are, effectively, powerless to affect other members of the species they may as well not exist, so the only choices and characteristics that matter to you are your ones.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:10   #66
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I think you're considering far, far too large groups here. Over the whole of the UK, for example, the majority of people don't go to football matches or watch it on television. Does this mean that the UK doesn't like football?
It just means certain groups do, and certain don't.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:11   #67
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by jt25man
It just means certain groups do, and certain don't.
It was intended as a demonstration that your definitions of "major social groups" gives fairly meaningless results unless you assume the country is fairly uniform, which such things rarely are.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:14   #68
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by jt25man
Well a generalization of major society would be a country, but it could also be an ethnic group.
This doesn't really make sense. Your definitions would become broad to the point of meaninglessness or become definitions by exclusion (which are frequently misleading).

Quote:
It wasn't meant to counter what he said.
So you would agree that his point that technology altered a certain taboo is valid then?


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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:15   #69
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
It doesn't really matter if they don't; if they are, effectively, powerless to affect other members of the species
I don't think that will ever occur either unless we each get our own universe.
Quote:
they may as well not exist, so the only choices and characteristics that matter to you are your ones.
And one of those choices might be the subcategory you choose to place yourself in. The difference may only be of academic or intellectual interest but so?

Overall I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. My original point was probably badly phrased however, I just meant to say that I don't forsee us ever losing subcategories of human beings while any distinction between individuals exists or while we're not in some sort of Borg collective.

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 25 Jul 2006 at 12:30.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:19   #70
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I don't think that will ever occur either unless we each get our own universe.
That's also possible. To use the pop-culture example, what about everyone getting their own personal Matrix?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Overall I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. My original point was probably badly phrased however, I just meant to say that I don't forsee us ever losing subcategories of human beings while any distinction between individuals exists or while we're not in some sort of Borg collective.
I'm just arguing that it is theoretically possible, in even our limited understanding of what the future might bring, to conceive of a "society" where society doesn't exist whilst still maintaining intellectual capacity.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:21   #71
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
It was intended as a demonstration that your definitions of "major social groups" gives fairly meaningless results unless you assume the country is fairly uniform, which such things rarely are.
To assume that everyone in a society has the same values, opinions, likes and dislikes, etc., is somewhat ignorant, I agree.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:23   #72
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by jt25man
To assume that everyone in a society has the same values, opinions, likes and dislikes, etc., is somewhat ignorant, I agree.
So surely if we want to talk about social behaviour the "societies" we consider should be smaller and more uniform?
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:23   #73
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
So you would agree that his point that technology altered a certain taboo is valid then?
Technology didn't alter the taboo, the people using the technology did.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:28   #74
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by jt25man
Technology didn't alter the taboo, the people using the technology did.
Obviously. Taboos are human values so humans have to change them. However the point is that due to the existence of technology humans did change them.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:33   #75
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
So surely if we want to talk about social behaviour the "societies" we consider should be smaller and more uniform?
It depends on the society. If you're talking about the society of a rural village, or say a religion such as Catholocism.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:35   #76
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Obviously. Taboos are human values so humans have to change them. However the point is that due to the existence of technology humans did change them.
Yes, that's pretty much where my lame point was going. Technology in and of itself doesn't change society, it's the use of technology.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:44   #77
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by jt25man
It depends on the society. If you're talking about the society of a rural village, or say a religion such as Catholocism.
These two aren't mutually exclusive though?

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Yes, that's pretty much where my lame point was going. Technology in and of itself doesn't change society, it's the use of technology.
Ah. Rather tautological isn't it?
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:51   #78
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
These two aren't mutually exclusive though?
Just examples of two different societial sizes, rulal village bieng small in number say a few hundred, to Catholocism which is a few million. The same method of defining "social behaviour" may not necessarilly work.

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Ah. Rather tautological isn't it?
Sometimes subtle logic is fun to play with.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 12:57   #79
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by jt25man
Just examples of two different societial sizes, rulal village bieng small in number say a few hundred, to Catholocism which is a few million. The same method of defining "social behaviour" may not necessarilly work.
I think the main danger of defining certain people as behaving in a certain way because of their membership of a particular group is that your categorisation isn't open enough and doesn't leave enough room for individual variance. If you can keep an open mind on the issue, it generally doesn't matter that much.

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Sometimes subtle logic is fun to play with.
Tautologies are more brute force than subtle but yeah.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 18:24   #80
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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PS. The English are actually Danish.
Crumpets perhaps, but certainly not Danish.
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Unread 26 Jul 2006, 20:23   #81
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I think the main danger of defining certain people as behaving in a certain way because of their membership of a particular group is that your categorisation isn't open enough and doesn't leave enough room for individual variance. If you can keep an open mind on the issue, it generally doesn't matter that much.
there is nothing inherently wrong with categorisation provided that categories are not enforced.
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Unread 29 Jul 2006, 00:41   #82
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by Maladoni
As long as Norway and Japan keep bribing the likes of Essention Island and Lard is back on our shelves, I don't care if my lamb tastes of Brouwerij Breda.
I've been to Ascension Island. I did not know they were taking bribes from Japan and Norway though.

http://www.ascension-island.gov.ac/ascension.htm
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Unread 29 Jul 2006, 01:22   #83
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by Nantoz
AAAAH!
When did you return?
I've been here the whole time Mr. Rape, Pillage and Plunder.
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Unread 29 Jul 2006, 02:43   #84
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Wales has birthed some great poets doncha know: read both the Thomas's.

PS. Dear neg-repper,

I recommend 'The Airy Tomb' by R.S. and 'Over Sir John's Hill' by Dylan. Is that pretentious enough for you, you guff-merchant?
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