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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 16:44   #1
meglamaniac
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A physics question for you to grapple with

Ok.
So there's the whole "no object may travel faster than light as then mass is the square root of a negative number" business, according to Einstein.
Now imagine this situation:
There is a giant "clock hand" positioned somewhere, somehow. Seeing as this is all theoretical anyway I can't be bothered to try and invent details. Now say this hand is so long that while it turns at just a few revolutions per hour, the rotational velocity of the outer tip reaches light speed (or even goes beyond it?).

What happens now?
Does the tip cease to exist somehow?
Is there a blinding flash of light and things blowing up?
Is there some sort of catastrophic collapse of the laws of physics, thus bringing about armageddon?

I'm just interested if anyone has any theories.

CAVEATS (from below)
Assume perfect engineering.
And that it's done in space (zero drag).
And that it's accelerated REALLY SLOWLY.
You ****s.
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Last edited by meglamaniac; 18 Sep 2005 at 16:56.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 16:49   #2
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

What?
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 16:50   #3
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

I was bored.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 16:50   #4
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Do more drugs.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 16:51   #5
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

do less drugs.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 16:53   #6
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Stress snaps it in half.

Physics wins again.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 16:54   #7
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Ok.
So there's the whole "no object may travel faster than light as then mass is the square root of a negative number" business, according to Einstein.
Now imagine this situation:
There is a giant "clock hand" positioned somewhere, somehow. Seeing as this is all theoretical anyway I can't be bothered to try and invent details. Now say this hand is so long that while it turns at just a few revolutions per hour, the rotational velocity of the outer tip reaches light speed (or even goes beyond it?).

What happens now?
Does the tip cease to exist somehow?
Is there a blinding flash of light and things blowing up?
Is there some sort of catastrophic collapse of the laws of physics, thus bringing about armageddon?

I'm just interested if anyone has any theories.
Thats a very good point actually. But do you realise how long that clock hand has to be first? maybe that is the impossible bit?
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 16:54   #8
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Assume perfect engineering.
And that it's done in space (zero drag).
And that it's accelerated REALLY SLOWLY.
You ****s.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 17:01   #9
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Yeh but look how heavy that hand has gotta be.... is it even possible to accelerate such an object.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 17:02   #10
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

It doesn't have to be a giant clock hand.
It could be a really little one that you rotate really really fast.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 17:02   #11
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
Yeh but look how heavy that hand has gotta be.... is it even possible to accelerate such an object.
it's in space.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 17:03   #12
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Exclamation Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

In space, no one can hear you scream.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 17:06   #13
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
it's in space.
So?

Ok, no air resistance, but F still equals MA
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 17:08   #14
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
It doesn't have to be a giant clock hand.
It could be a really little one that you rotate really really fast.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 17:11   #15
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Can it be as small as 1 atom of hydrogen? Thus reducing the problem to:

"Is it possible for an object to travel faster than the speed of light"





















Cos the answer is no.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 17:11   #16
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

As you try to accelerate something towards the speed of light you require more and more energy to accelerate it any further so that you actually need infinite energy to accelerate anything with any mass to the speed of light. I'd appreciate a pedantic point from MrL right now.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 17:52   #17
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

If I recall correctly, what happens when you reach the speed of light is that you don't cease to exist, but that your mass becomes equal to that of the universe. I know shit about physics, but I remember this somewhat part from Astronomy.

Quote:
One of the reasons that prevent any object with a mass going at or faster than the speed of light is that the mass is not constant - it increases with velocity and it goes to infinity at the speed of light. So that eventually you need infinite amounts of energy to accelerate infinite mass past the speed of light mark! (and as far as I know we have yet to find an infinite source of energy :-)
Quote:
In fact Einstein's relationship tells us more, it says Energy and mass are interchangeable. Or, better said, rest mass is just one form of energy. For a compound object, the mass of the composite is not just the sum of the masses of the constituents but the sum of their energies, including kinetic, potential, and mass energy. The equation E=mc2 shows how to convert between energy units and mass units. Even a small mass corresponds to a significant amount of energy.
The mass that makes up your clockhand would increase, mass and energy is interchaneable or mass is a form of energy, so as you put infinite amounts of energy, the mass would grow to an inifinte size.

I think I slaughtered that, but probably got somewhere it in the ballpark of correctness.

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae283.cfm
http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/vvc/th...elativity.html

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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 18:12   #18
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Biggest damn ball-park I ever did see.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 18:24   #19
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

People have already given essentially correct answers. The mass of the material at the end of the hand would increase in your reference frame, such that you would not be able to supply a large enough force to cause the hand to rotate. And yes, if you continued to increase the force, it is likely that the hand would snap.

Also, on a slightly less fundamental note: What do you intend to use as a pivot? You going to wedge it against a very massive planet? Or do you intend to strap two rockets in opposing directions on it separated by a small distance?
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 18:27   #20
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
People have already given essentially correct answers. The mass of the material at the end of the hand would increase in your reference frame, such that you would not be able to supply a large enough force to cause the hand to rotate. And yes, if you continued to increase the force, it is likely that the hand would snap.

Also, on a slightly less fundamental note: What do you intend to use as a pivot? You going to wedge it against a very massive planet? Or do you intend to strap two rockets in opposing directions on it separated by a small distance?
The size of the clockhand is really irrelevant. It just needs the right dimensions, so that if you move it slightly at the center, the outer tip approaches the speed of light (an impossiblity). But it could be a tiny clock hand.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 18:50   #21
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
The size of the clockhand is really irrelevant. It just needs the right dimensions, so that if you move it slightly at the center, the outer tip approaches the speed of light (an impossiblity). But it could be a tiny clock hand.
This doesn't really make sense. You can't apply enough force to make the outer tip reach the speed of light (you said it's impossible for it to approach the speed of light which is actually wrong, you just can't reach it, small particles have been accelerated to like 99.99999% of the speed of light). The more force you would apply the greater the stress on the hand, as the outer portions would move out of synchronisation. Eventually it'd just snap.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 18:54   #22
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
People have already given essentially correct answers. The mass of the material at the end of the hand would increase in your reference frame, such that you would not be able to supply a large enough force to cause the hand to rotate. And yes, if you continued to increase the force, it is likely that the hand would snap.

Also, on a slightly less fundamental note: What do you intend to use as a pivot? You going to wedge it against a very massive planet? Or do you intend to strap two rockets in opposing directions on it separated by a small distance?
hey jennifer did you end up at Ox? QC or not QC (that is the question)?

[edit]if you use a single electron as your clock, you can claim the hand is moving faster than the speed of light, assuming you insist on sucking at physics.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 18:59   #23
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This doesn't really make sense. You can't apply enough force to make the outer tip reach the speed of light (you said it's impossible for it to approach the speed of light which is actually wrong, you just can't reach it, small particles have been accelerated to like 99.99999% of the speed of light). The more force you would apply the greater the stress on the hand, as the outer portions would move out of synchronisation. Eventually it'd just snap.
I really don't know anything about physics, and I admit I'm only speaking rubbish.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 19:11   #24
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Tachyon's theorhetically go the speed of light.

Also, all the science behind the speed of light is theorehtical so saying "no we can't go the speed of light" is wrong.

Last edited by KaneED; 29 Aug 2006 at 21:41.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 19:20   #25
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Tachyon's theorhetically go the speed of light.

Also, all the science behind the speed of light is theorehtical so saying "no we can't go the speed of light" is gay and wrong.
Of course it's a theory. That's why they're called einstein's special and general theories of relativity. However they're rather good theories. Also to criticise the "science behind the speed of light" right after you mention tachyons, a hypothetical particle, is so inane it's laughable.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 19:20   #26
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Also, all the science behind the speed of light is theorehtical
in before aggreived physicists
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 19:21   #27
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Tachyon's theorhetically go the speed of light.

Also, all the science behind the speed of light is theoretical so saying "no we can't go the speed of light" is gay and wrong.
You sound more ignorant than I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by idiots
It's not a fact, it's a theory, so it's really meaningless!
This is an incredibly ignorant point of view, held by people who don't understand science. Like creation science and intelligent design nincompoops.

Once something becomes a theory it's withstood rigorous challenges and is not 'just' a theory. This 'just' minimization is often applied to even the best explanation we have for phenomenon because people don't like the explanation. Many times it's ignorant religious fanatics who use this tactic, this time it's a science fiction fan who's seen one too many episodes of Star Trek and has accepted the story as an inevitable future.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 19:53   #28
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

You mean we wont have holodecks? There goes my fantasy of living in a porno.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 20:17   #29
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Of course it's a theory. That's why they're called einstein's special and general theories of relativity. However they're rather good theories. Also to criticise the "science behind the speed of light" right after you mention tachyons, a hypothetical particle, is so inane it's laughable.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 20:21   #30
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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Originally Posted by Arachnidman
You mean we wont have holodecks? There goes my fantasy of living in a porno.
if you can show me how any post in this thread shows there won't be holodecks, i'll posrep this:/
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 20:24   #31
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
guys, read this.

It's about how a portuguese scientist is defying einstein by claiming that speed of light is not that much of a constant, and that it has been much faster before.

UFOEVIDENCE.ORG?


I've actually read some of maguejio's book and a lot of is just ranting to be honest. What his theory is supposed to explain can be explained in other ways without the need for a change in c.





PS Holodecks are
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 20:31   #32
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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Originally Posted by acropolis
if you can show me how any post in this thread shows there won't be holodecks, i'll posrep this:/
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
seen one too many episodes of Star Trek and has accepted the story as an inevitable future.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 20:34   #33
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

That states something, it doesn't show it. There's a rather important difference.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 20:58   #34
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Tachyon's theorhetically go the speed of light.
No, Tachyon's go faster than the speed of light. However, as they can't go slower than the speed of light they've got the same problem from the other direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Also, all the science behind the speed of light is theorehtical so saying "no we can't go the speed of light" is gay and wrong.
Those damn scientists with their "evidence" and their "empiricism".
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 20:59   #35
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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I WATCH STAR TREK I KNOW WHATS WHAT
You don't know what "theory" means, for a start.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 21:47   #36
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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Originally Posted by Arachnidman
You mean we wont have holodecks? There goes my fantasy of living in a porno.
We effectivly have a holodeck at my Uni. We call it the HIVE. Granted you can't actually physically interect with anything yet (and it's not 360 degress) but we're close!


PS someone hurry up and invent transporters, i'm getting tired of having to walk everywhere
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 21:53   #37
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
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We effectivly have a holodeck at my Uni. We call it the HIVE. Granted you can't actually physically interect with anything yet (and it's not 360 degress) but we're close!


PS someone hurry up and invent transporters, i'm getting tired of having to walk everywhere
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 22:35   #38
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
click on original source
I know flav, it's a theory slightly beyond ufoevidence.org. I was just poking fun.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 22:53   #39
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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Originally Posted by horn
what problem ?
That they can't travel at the speed of light, or reach speeds which transcend it.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 23:00   #40
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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Originally Posted by s|k
You have an MSN webspace.
I do? :eek:
Jesus how'd that happen? :eek: :eek: :eek:
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 23:06   #41
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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Originally Posted by Demon Dave
I do? :eek:
Jesus how'd that happen? :eek: :eek: :eek:
You have an MSN webspace.
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 23:20   #42
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
You have an MSN webspace.
you have no point
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 23:25   #43
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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you have no point
I spammed it. :0
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 23:32   #44
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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Originally Posted by s|k
I spammed it. :0
:eek:
it was about as literate as most of those other comments (and their webspaces)
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Unread 18 Sep 2005, 23:41   #45
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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Originally Posted by Demon Dave
:eek:
it was about as literate as most of those other comments (and their webspaces)
I tried.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 12:25   #46
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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Originally Posted by Jennifer
Also, on a slightly less fundamental note: What do you intend to use as a pivot? You going to wedge it against a very massive planet? Or do you intend to strap two rockets in opposing directions on it separated by a small distance?
that's another interesting point. basically rather than a pivot - since there is no such thing as a stationary point, what you could try doing is spinning the rod around it's centre of mass, so you could have a small weight in the centre spinning around, imparting it's angular momentum to the hand. bets are on that you would require infinite angular momentum to get the hand to turn at c.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 12:28   #47
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

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Originally Posted by KaneED
Tachyon's theorhetically go the speed of light.
no, photons go at the speed of light. Tachyons are hypothetical particles that go faster than the speed of light.
Quote:
Also, all the science behind the speed of light is theorehtical so saying "no we can't go the speed of light" is gay and wrong.
the constant velovity of light speed in a vacuum is based on the permittivity and permeability of free space, which are invariant quantities under velocity and acceleration transforms. Maxwell was probably on the verge of realising this decades before Einstein, but then he died.
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Unread 20 Sep 2005, 20:10   #48
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Re: A physics question for you to grapple with

Thanks for clearing up the tachyon thing for me MrL, Radical Ed et al, saves me having to shout. I don't want to get all stressed out with the idiots tonight, I'm really not in the mood.
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