Planetarion Forums

BesigedB · 20 Feb 2003, 08:49

Today I tried to logon to the stress test using lynx as it is the easiest thing to do at this time in the morning. You know what I encountered - the magical 'login question'. I would have seen this before had I played since round 4. Now seeing as spinner said there would be a text based menu in CH (or just about did) it would be nice if we could login to see it. [Bot Stopper] ain't particularly useful if you cannt display images.

Dont say don't use lynx.

- Andrew

MrL_JaKiri · 20 Feb 2003, 10:19

You expect Spinner to think of EVERYTHING*?

*anything

SYMM · 20 Feb 2003, 10:41

He was talking about r10 when he said that any "Fancy flash menu will have a text alternative" (paraphrasing, but its pretty close). Its not much of PA crew to expect people to use image-capable browsers, for the vast, vast majority of people it is what they'd use anyway, and I'm sure most of the rest (maybe this doesn't include you, I don't know) could use a "normal" browser if they wanted.
Sorry and all, but "Don't use Lynx"

Coffee · 20 Feb 2003, 11:27

Given the option of...

A: Stopping Large scale bot armies or
B: Letting 3 people use links

I choose A.

Quote:

Originally posted by BesigedB

Dont say don't use lynx.

- Andrew

RealJames · 20 Feb 2003, 11:28

If the questions were text, not graphics, then automated log-in of the Killmark genre becomes a lot easier.

'Don't use linux.'

hinch · 20 Feb 2003, 13:20

lynx reads the alt="" tag of an image just make thequestion the alt tag too

SYMM · 20 Feb 2003, 13:30

Wouldn't that be just as "bad" as using a text question?

hAl · 20 Feb 2003, 13:42

Quote:

Originally posted by hinch
lynx reads the alt="" tag of an image just make thequestion the alt tag too

What a strange suggestion. Why do you think they added the questions a images in the first place ?

hAl

kaos · 20 Feb 2003, 13:51

Whats the difference between using the image url as identifier for the images or using a string ? for a bot it doesn't matter, so i don't see a point not putting the text of the questions on the login screen as well

RealJames · 20 Feb 2003, 13:59

Quote:

Originally posted by kaos
Whats the difference between using the image url as identifier for the images or using a string ? for a bot it doesn't matter, so i don't see a point not putting the text of the questions on the login screen as well

If a bot is going to 'learn' all the answers it's not a big deal. However assuming it doesn't it could put the text through a search engine and try to pick a common word as an answer. (Just an idea.)

hinch · 20 Feb 2003, 15:14

Quote:

Originally posted by hAl
What a strange suggestion. Why do you think they added the questions a images in the first place ?

hAl

wasnt suggesting anything just stating thats how lynx works

SYMM · 20 Feb 2003, 15:39

Quote:

just make thequestion the alt tag too

looks very much like a suggestion to me, but whatever

Dave · 20 Feb 2003, 15:42

Quote:

Originally posted by kaos
Whats the difference between using the image url as identifier for the images or using a string ? for a bot it doesn't matter, so i don't see a point not putting the text of the questions on the login screen as well

Because the image itself cannot be read by the bot without some heavy duty coding etc, while a simple text string can be read, and as such the corresponding answer can be found in a database etc.

hinch · 20 Feb 2003, 16:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Because the image itself cannot be read by the bot without some heavy duty coding etc, while a simple text string can be read, and as such the corresponding answer can be found in a database etc.

because the text is white on black on the image its quite easy to read it

hAl · 20 Feb 2003, 16:46

Quote:

Originally posted by hinch
because the text is white on black on the image its quite easy to read it

Still way more difficult than putting text in the page. Even I could program something to read plain text.

hAl

Supernova9 · 20 Feb 2003, 17:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Because the image itself cannot be read by the bot without some heavy duty coding etc, while a simple text string can be read, and as such the corresponding answer can be found in a database etc.

I think what he means is using the actual filename of the picture file which gives the question to build up a database of questions and answers.

Telest · 20 Feb 2003, 18:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Supernova9
I think what he means is using the actual filename of the picture file which gives the question to build up a database of questions and answers.

The picture doesn't have a "filename" though, so that's not really possible. The picture is always referred to with the same URL. The HTML page stays the exact same, the served image is different (although you could now checksum the image I suppose)

Pitchfork · 20 Feb 2003, 19:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Telest
(although you could now checksum the image I suppose)

yes, but you have to let your bot 'learn' the answer assigned to every checksum.

anyway, it's not that hard to write a program that actually 'reads' the question, some simple OCR software would be enough to do so, I suppose. So imho this bot-stopper thing is really useless, cause someone able to write a bot managing that much planets will be able to get around those login questions.

Tactitus · 20 Feb 2003, 21:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Pitchfork
anyway, it's not that hard to write a program that actually 'reads' the question, some simple OCR software would be enough to do so, I suppose. So imho this bot-stopper thing is really useless, cause someone able to write a bot managing that much planets will be able to get around those login questions.

So how many bot writers have gotten around the login questions?

hinch · 21 Feb 2003, 00:04

not tried it yet

could be a new test for some .net skillz

Ramihyn · 21 Feb 2003, 02:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Tactitus
So how many bot writers have gotten around the login questions?

I know of at least 2.

My first part is still on the net (from June 2002):
http://www.reconstructor.com/pabot/index.html

The second part wasnt made public - it described how you can avoid a database and how a bot can actually answer without a human teaching it. It wasnt made public because I couldnt find a way how to prove how it works without giving out the solution to botmakers.

the bot stopper doesnt really stop bots - it should be renamed to "wap stopper"

The Chip · 21 Feb 2003, 06:24

image questions don't work. OCR does. End of Story.

I would like to use Text browsers over SSH so i can properly access the game from my school.

+1 for Removal of the Image Login Question.

Scoot951 · 21 Feb 2003, 06:59

I've never even seen a text-only browser before. Do you people purposely go out and download the crappiest stuff you can get?

The Chip · 21 Feb 2003, 07:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Scoot951
I've never even seen a text-only browser before. Do you people purposely go out and download the crappiest stuff you can get?

maybe you should....

Am i really that old? People haven' use CLI?

RealJames · 21 Feb 2003, 09:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Scoot951
I've never even seen a text-only browser before. Do you people purposely go out and download the crappiest stuff you can get?

PA aside, is there much that's text-based that you look at on the net?

Woof · 21 Feb 2003, 09:34

Quote:

Originally posted by RealJames
PA aside, is there much that's text-based that you look at on the net?

And why would anyone choose to have text browser?
I can't grasp the concept of such crapness? Are you using AOL with a 14k modem, on a P75 and a 16 colour monitor?

RealJames · 21 Feb 2003, 09:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Woof
And why would anyone choose to have text browser?
I can't grasp the concept of such crapness? Are you using AOL with a 14k modem, on a P75 and a 16 colour monitor?

I think I could make my own web pages faster than that. That includes learning how to code.

As for AOL... *shudder*

Gayle29uk · 21 Feb 2003, 09:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Woof
And why would anyone choose to have text browser?

If you're blind and want the text and links read out to you by the computer perhaps? That's the main use for Lynx.

I can also see a use if you're busy coding something and aren't in X, a quick text browse to check your planet etc.

IE is not the be all and end all

The Chip · 21 Feb 2003, 09:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Woof
And why would anyone choose to have text browser?
I can't grasp the concept of such crapness? Are you using AOL with a 14k modem, on a P75 and a 16 colour monitor?

No. Linux, FreeBSD, and others on machines from a dualie 400 to an athlon xp 2200.

The second reason i use Lynx, Links or other text mode browsers is so I can use them inside a remote SSH sesion. I can use SSH to get to my home system from anywhere. i.ie when I am at school which has blocked planerarion .com, so my only viable way to login is to SSH out, and then use a text browser.

The issue is ease of use. The login images have been proven to be OCR`able.Therefore they offer little protection. They only make it harder on people that otherwise could use the game. (Including WAP support.... which is a whole other issue...)

-chip

Woof · 21 Feb 2003, 09:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
If you're blind and want the text and links read out to you by the computer perhaps? That's the main use for Lynx.

If you're blind, how do you do the inputs to build ships and such

Gayle29uk · 21 Feb 2003, 10:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Woof
If you're blind, how do you do the inputs to build ships and such

Braille keyboard or voice interface are the two most common ways.

Envious · 21 Feb 2003, 10:13

Quote:

Originally posted by The Chip

The issue is ease of use. The login images have been proven to be OCR`able.Therefore they offer little protection. They only make it harder on people that otherwise could use the game. (Including WAP support.... which is a whole other issue...)

There's another way to see this: make login questions NOT OCR'able. It's possible of course. You just have to really want the protection and give away a little ease of use.

(°> · 21 Feb 2003, 10:29

it doesn't stop WAP btw
just makes it a bit harder

and bots could keeps planets logged in and switch between them

21 Feb 2003, 10:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramihyn
I know of at least 2.

My first part is still on the net (from June 2002):
http://www.reconstructor.com/pabot/index.html

The second part wasnt made public - it described how you can avoid a database and how a bot can actually answer without a human teaching it. It wasnt made public because I couldnt find a way how to prove how it works without giving out the solution to botmakers.

the bot stopper doesnt really stop bots - it should be renamed to "wap stopper"

That second part sounds a little far feched IMHO. havnt't encoutered any sort of program that can answer q's without having a database to refer to, or being 'taught' as you put it.

Care to shed some light on the matter?

The Chip · 21 Feb 2003, 11:32

Quote:

Originally posted by m0ns00n
That second part sounds a little far feched IMHO. havnt't encoutered any sort of program that can answer q's without having a database to refer to, or being 'taught' as you put it.

Care to shed some light on the matter?

google knows: http://directory.google.com/Top/Comp...ural_Language/

Woof · 21 Feb 2003, 11:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
Braille keyboard or voice interface are the two most common ways.

Sorry to seem daft but:
How do you know where the cursor is on screen, in relation to the input fields, so you build the right thing?

How would you know how many resources you have, when building ships?

How do you know you have incoming and such?

I can understand how things work with sites like bbc.co.uk, but how do blind people interact and play a game like PA?

Envious · 21 Feb 2003, 12:16

Quote:

Originally posted by The Chip
google knows: http://directory.google.com/Top/Comp...ural_Language/

at the moment there is no possibility for an automatic system that could parse and answer any written question from any domain or context (without a questions database). period.

btw ever heard of the Turing Test?

Mong · 21 Feb 2003, 12:19

Of course, the graphical question excludes people with visual impairments

Maybe ppl registered with problems can email Spinner et al to have their account excluded from bot stoppers?

M.

Gayle29uk · 21 Feb 2003, 12:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Envious
at the moment there is no possibility for an automatic system that could parse and answer any written question from any domain or context (without a questions database). period.

btw ever heard of the Turing Test?

Don't be silly, full lexical parsing may not be realistic but a basic version can not only be done but be done fairly trivially.

Gayle29uk · 21 Feb 2003, 12:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Woof
Sorry to seem daft but:
How do you know where the cursor is on screen, in relation to the input fields, so you build the right thing?

The same way you know where the cursor is on any other site, audible prompts from the browser.

Quote:

How would you know how many resources you have, when building ships?

See above. Blind people tend to have good memories as they rely on them so much.

Quote:

How do you know you have incoming and such?

Same way you do, overview has nasty fleets on it.

Not that I'm saying PA comes up to scratch under the W3Cs Web Accessibility Initiative (hint hint Spinner) but it would be possible to play (if somewhat difficult).

Quote:

I can understand how things work with sites like bbc.co.uk, but how do blind people interact and play a game like PA?

You'd be amazed, you really would. Take a trip to the Royal College for the Blind in Hereford and you'll learn NOTHING is impossible

Envious · 21 Feb 2003, 12:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
Don't be silly, full lexical parsing may not be realistic but a basic version can not only be done but be done fairly trivially.

huh? you are talking about a program that can understand and answer any question i might ask? i'd really like to see that...

Ramihyn · 21 Feb 2003, 12:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Envious
at the moment there is no possibility for an automatic system that could parse and answer any written question from any domain or context (without a questions database). period.

btw ever heard of the Turing Test?

I fear Loebner wouldn't give me the 100.000 for "breaking" the PA bot stopper questions

Please dont compare this with a TT - it isnt.

Gayle29uk · 21 Feb 2003, 12:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Envious
huh? you are talking about a program that can understand and answer any question i might ask? i'd really like to see that...

Simple example:

Many of the questions last round were of the 'Enter the word in the box' variety. These are simple to pick out lexically and simply enter the OCRed word in the box.

Other types had at most 3 options, again picking out those options from the question itself is fairly trivial. Even a random choice of those words means on average you'd be right 33% of the time and with 10 attempts allowed before account locking you're statistically almost certain to get in.

As for anything more advanced, a google search on lexical parsing will give you more information than either of us could understand

Envious · 21 Feb 2003, 13:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
Simple example:

Many of the questions last round were of the 'Enter the word in the box' variety. These are simple to pick out lexically and simply enter the OCRed word in the box.

Other types had at most 3 options, again picking out those options from the question itself is fairly trivial. Even a random choice of those words means on average you'd be right 33% of the time and with 10 attempts allowed before account locking you're statistically almost certain to get in.

As for anything more advanced, a google search on lexical parsing will give you more information than either of us could understand

you are assuming special types of questions here and only a very stupid creator (i'm not telling names

) would choose such questions. show me any program that can answer "is the sky blue?", "do heaven and hell exist?" and the likes and i will call you genius

Envious · 21 Feb 2003, 13:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramihyn
I fear Loebner wouldn't give me the 100.000 for "breaking" the PA bot stopper questions

Please dont compare this with a TT - it isnt.

the aim of the bot stopper question is to discriminate if you have a human or an automatic system answering the question. that's not really far from a Turing Test.

i agree tho that there are significant differences in the version we see implemented, e.g. the decision must be made by a bot itself, what in turn restricts the possible questions and answers.

Gayle29uk · 21 Feb 2003, 13:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Envious
you are assuming special types of questions here and only a very stupid creator (i'm not telling names ) would choose such questions. show me any program that can answer "is the sky blue?", "do heaven and hell exist?" and the likes and i will call you genius

"Is $noun $adjective" always translates as a yes/no or true/false answer. You need to state which you are looking for so the humans can get it right meaning the bot can easily decide that true/false or yes/no are the options giving it a 50% chance of getting it right.

What you're missing here is that the bot doesn't NEED to understand the questions, it just needs to be able to pick out the possible answers and guess.

Gayle29uk · 21 Feb 2003, 13:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Envious
the aim of the bot stopper question is to discriminate if you have a human or an automatic system answering the question. that's not really far from a Turing Test.

It's a long long way from a Turing test. A LOOOOOOOOONG way.

Ramihyn · 21 Feb 2003, 13:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Envious
you are assuming special types of questions here and only a very stupid creator (i'm not telling names ) would choose such questions. show me any program that can answer "is the sky blue?", "do heaven and hell exist?" and the likes and i will call you genius

It's basically the same like with the rendering of text into a graphic. The idea was good - the implementation wasnt :/

Envious · 21 Feb 2003, 13:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
"Is $noun $adjective" always translates as a yes/no or true/false answer. You need to state which you are looking for so the humans can get it right meaning the bot can easily decide that true/false or yes/no are the options giving it a 50% chance of getting it right.

indeed you are right i made the same bad mistake by restricting myself to yes/no questions. how about "what instrument do angels play?", "which way does a stone fall?", "what's in the middle of your face?" (to be continued endlessly)

Gayle29uk · 21 Feb 2003, 14:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Envious
indeed you are right i made the same bad mistake by restricting myself to yes/no questions. how about "what instrument do angels play?", "which way does a stone fall?", "what's in the middle of your face?" (to be continued endlessly)

Now get a Latvian with poor english to answer them. He can't either? In that case PA loses a customer. That's why you can't have those sorts of questions.