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Unread 24 Jan 2003, 23:13   #1
Flik
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Need Help On...

I need help on coding, you know the stuff so you can make programs, i baught a 100$ book but it just was to old, so anbody know a good webby i could learn how to code my own programs????
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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 00:36   #2
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If you're asking that question, I think a better question would be to ask yourself if you should be trying to learn to code in the first place.
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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 01:14   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by SnAzBaZ
If you're asking that question, I think a better question would be to ask yourself if you should be trying to learn to code in the first place.
What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Flik, try playing around with Visual Basic, or search the Internet a bit.
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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 01:41   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
Flik, try playing around with Visual Basic
Ditto

It's a good language to start learning because you can get visible results fairly quickly. Once you grasp the concepts several things happen...

1. You realise how big and complicated the world of programming actually is.

2. You realise there are lots of tools out there to make it easier

The problem is until you're at the point where you can manage to make use of 2 without help you're really still working on 1.

It's a great thing to be able to do though and this is (despite your first reply) a really good place to ask questions
Oh, and Visual Basic for Dummies is a good place to start and won't set you back 100$. Everyone starts at the beginning in this game, it's then up to you how fast you develop your skills.
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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 01:48   #5
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BASIC is indeed a good place to start.
I've never used VB having never done any visual programming at all, but I first learnt to program ages ago on an old Amstrad CPC 464 which used BASIC. It's useful because it makes linguistic sense for the most part, and doesn't require you to learn complex syntax. More advanced languages such as C make more logical sense, but you can forget them making linquistic sense to any real degree and there is some very funny syntax out there.
If I'd been shown any C code when I was using that Amstrad I would probably have packed it all in and gone back to playing Anarchy.

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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 02:49   #6
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Learning to make programs and code things is somthing ive alwas wanted as a hobby, i know its hard and long but im willing like most people to learn, so i thank the nice people for there advice, ill defenitly read the dummy book, and what is this supposed to mean:


Quote:
Originally posted by SnAzBaZ
If you're asking that question, I think a better question would be to ask yourself if you should be trying to learn to code in the first place.

If this was an insult, lame and if it was advice also lame, sorry to be rude infront of these pleasent people but
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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 15:01   #7
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Actually, picking up the subject of old books from your first post...

A lot of things haven't changed since the beginning of computing. The Daddy (Donald Knuth) wrote a series of books many years ago (as someone pointed out to me a few months ago is still writing them) and they're as essential now as they were then. The Art of Computer Programming while not exactly easy to read is a fabulous introduction to concepts liked linked lists and binary trees. They won't have any relevance for a while (till you've picked up the basic concepts) but they pretty much belong on any programmers bookshelf .

Expanding the issue slightly here into a question for the more experienced peeps, what do you think of PHP as an introduction to programming? I was thinking about this last night and while it doesn't have the world's most obvious syntax (i.e. it's C ) it does allow probably the most visible results in the shortest time and still won't cost you anything interms of financial outlay. I know there are those that say PHP isn't suited for anything more complex than a webby with a few piccies but Yahoo disagree. They're recoding the entire site into PHP citing ease of development as the prime motivation. Once someone has learnt PHP properly (i.e. more than MySQL and the echo statement) wouldn't that make languages with similar syntax (C & perl to name but 2) easier to get to grips with?

Opinions gratefully received
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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 15:28   #8
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I'm not sure.

The immediate disadvantage I can see here is the need for webspace with PHP/SQL/databasing support. I'm assuming he's using a windows system here so it's not like he can set it all up locally (unless Apache has a PHP module available under windows? Dunno, never looked). If he's as inexperienced with the technicalities of webservers as he is with programming this is going to be a lot of hassle.

The other disadvantage may be down to my own personal preference. I always like to have something tangeable as a result of my dabbling in programming - something compiled that I can shove on a disk or CD and say "look, I made this". While of course you could hand out the URL for your PHP work (if you opted for remote hosting) it's somehow not the same.

One final thing is that PHP (or any web scripting tool) restricts what you can do with it. One of the things I was interested in when I first got hold of C++ was low-level disk access and what I could do with it - something PHP (for obvious reasons) can never allow you to do. Also, one of the things just about every novice programmer wants to do is make a game, even just a simple one.
Once I'd got the hang of my copy of Borland C++ (it's a DOS only one, not visual) and stolen a 256 Colour BGI driver from Borland's Turbo Pascal, I made the inevitable scolling space-invaders type game. While it was terribly coded, doing it taught me a lot and if I hadn't lost the source code in a harddrive crash I would have improved it at a later date.
While a text based game is possible with PHP, anything graphical such as that isn't.

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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 15:31   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by meglamaniac
<snip>
All good points

And FYI PHP/APache/MySQL are definitely all available for windows.
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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 15:38   #10
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Ta - consider me corrected.

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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 19:20   #11
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PHP-GTK can do graphics!
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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 19:30   #12
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C# is a far far far far far better language to begin learning with than Visual Basic, assuming you can get hold of VS.NET. VB6 has nothing whatsoever going for it, other than compatability with machines running obsolete operating systems that dont come with a .NET runtime installed (in other words, a lot of people wont be able to run your c# apps without downloading a 20meg runtime, but that doesnt really matter while youre learning).

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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 20:46   #13
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I'd have to agree with Gayle that PHP is the best place to get started with programming. Immediate results (unlike C) and get's you relatively disciplined unlike BASIC.

I found moving from BASIC to C to be horrendous since Basic is so forgiving. PHP=>C would be infinitely easier, although you've got to accept it get's a bit harder.

And PHP is relatively fashionable, with plenty of support forums/channels dotted around the place.
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Unread 25 Jan 2003, 22:14   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
C# is a far far far far far better language to begin learning with than Visual Basic, assuming you can get hold of VS.NET. VB6 has nothing whatsoever going for it, other than compatability with machines running obsolete operating systems that dont come with a .NET runtime installed (in other words, a lot of people wont be able to run your c# apps without downloading a 20meg runtime, but that doesnt really matter while youre learning).
also c# can very easily be used for web programming, should anyone need to at a later date, with asp.net.

i write a great deal of php, i don't actually know c or any other language, but when i have to write something in vb i find the syntax horrendous, as there is simply no way i can logically follow it though, i avoid it at all costs :|
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Unread 26 Jan 2003, 02:29   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by meglamaniac
(unless Apache has a PHP module available under windows? Dunno, never looked). If he's as inexperienced with the technicalities of webservers as he is with programming this is going to be a lot of hassle.
It runs fine on 98/nt with the win builds of mysql + apache.

basic probably is a better starting point - you dont have ;, {} and a (although limited) slightly more intuitive array system.

You wont be short of help if you pick php though.

The nice thing about PHP too is you dont need to warez 400mb of crufty MS product to get started.
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Unread 26 Jan 2003, 02:52   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Coffee
It runs fine on 98/nt with the win builds of mysql + apache.

basic probably is a better starting point - you dont have ;, {} and a (although limited) slightly more intuitive array system.
Why is it better because it doesnt use things that almost every other mainstream language uses, surely that would make it harder to move onto another language once hes finished learning?
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Unread 26 Jan 2003, 04:06   #17
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It's better for this reasion (well when I was starting out, that's what I found): Pretty much the entire language is "english".
The language is constructed in such a way that someone who has never seen code before could make a reasonable guess at what was going on.

Imagine asking a complete novice to guess what this does:
Code:
float a=2.5;
while (; a<=99.5;a++) {
   cout << a << "\r\n";
}
Somewhat simpler when done using BASIC statements? er, yes.
It's a good midpoint between linguistic sense and logical sense, in that most of the time you can type what you mean. Once you've got the hang of the various structures and routines of programming, then you can move on to C/C++, abandon any linguistic sense, and start converting what you know to more complex (but more powerful) syntax.

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Unread 26 Jan 2003, 06:06   #18
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I'd recommend Python. Its powerful, can be used for programming cgi webpages and can be used for a lot of neat stuff (that may sound vague, but it's areas of application are quite broad). It is also very simple. Their webpage also has links some nice faqs and howtos.

I would definitely recommend getting books, I always find myself more comfortable with text references than having to look stuff up on the internet. Books have editors and are reviewed, while it's often hard to gauge the standard of websites.

Python is a good learning language simply for its simplicity. You can do a lot in a few lines, in a very intuitive fashion. Activepython also lets you run it on windows machines

And for those of you complain about lack of {}; and so on in starting languages, lets face it, programming has about as much to do with them as speaking has to do with .!? and so on. It's just a syntactic tool, the semantics are what's important.

Jester

PS. Snazbaz is full of ****
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