Mines

I know mines have suggested many times before but i think the idea still has legs.

-A mine would cost say 750 eonium, 200 metal and 200 crystal and have the lifespan of say 7 days after which time it would need to be reactivated with some eonium.

-Mines can't move and are placed in orbit around the planet.

-Mines lock on to any enemy ships entering the area regardless of class and use small thrusters to manuvre within a few hundred feet of them before self destructing and destroying the ship. Due to them been a new technology they sometimes destroy defending ships by accident, the chances of them destroying an enemy ship are 5 times that of destroying a defending ship.

-Only about 15% of the attacking fleet can be destroyed each tick by mines.

[Dizzyness]

i think we have pds already

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Dizzyness
i think we have pds already

so when PDS hits a ship it destroys itself?

Big difference, mines sound like a good idea but much much much tweakage needed.

[Jonas]

not the selfdestruct part...tho temporary mines wouldnt be to bad

[MrBrick]

/me fills a cargo ship with C4.

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Jonas
not the selfdestruct part...tho temporary mines wouldnt be to bad

Mines by definition are self-destructive, anything else becomes PDS.

[Cochese]

I would love to see mines, always wanted 'em in.

Much tweakage needed indeed, but feasable.

[Bunga]

If a mine is five times as likely to kill an attacking ship than a defending ship, they are less than worthless.

No one would be stupid enough to use mines if each had a 16% chance to destroy your own or allied ship(s). Set that to 0.5%, or use a sliding scale to decide the chance (% chance for each mine to kill a defender goes up as the number of mines increase... call it difficulties in maintaining or whatnot)

[Jonas]

i even misread ;D

thought he was talking about mines, as in getting resources out from somwhere...pld me, im tired

not that bad an idea then ^^

[Colt]

Originally posted by Jonas
i even misread ;D

thought he was talking about mines, as in getting resources out from somwhere...pld me, im tired

not that bad an idea then ^^

Silly thing

/me gives Jonas some sleeping tablets

[Tactitus]

The problem with mines (or any self-destructing weapon), is making them pay for themselves. In PA, any ship can be reused indefinitely--as long as it survives. So, if you're careful about when/where you use it, you can make any ship pay for itself eventually (the whole problem with PDS is that you have so little control over when/where it's used).

Mines would presumably be like PDS in that they can't run away; which means your enemy gets to decide when/where/how to engage them (and naturally, he's going to pick the situation that leads to the least amount of damage to him--and the most to you).

As long as PA operates in the "perfect information universe" that scans provide, then mines (and PDS) will never be very effective (except by making them so powerful that everyone can just turtle-up).

[Coffee]

Cost effectiveness is key.

Priced at about 1,250 m, 1,250 c and 500 e (roughly) and the ability to kill any random ship in the enemy attack fleet (irrespective of armour) they would add an interesting strategy - anyone can just throw fighters at them to clear them cheaply, but an unplanned attack by someone not paying attention could be defeated cost-effectivley.

They'd require initiative 0 of course, and make sure that they can be tweaked to be cost effective and not mass buyable to gurantee a degree of balance. It would be nice to have a few ticks line of defense against general podding raids.

A build time of about 5 would also help defend against the flatten->pod technique.

Overall not a bad idea. Definatley needs tested first though!

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by Coffee
Cost effectiveness is key.

Priced at about 1,250 m, 1,250 c and 500 e (roughly) and the ability to kill any random ship in the enemy attack fleet (irrespective of armour) they would add an interesting strategy - anyone can just throw fighters at them to clear them cheaply, but an unplanned attack by someone not paying attention could be defeated cost-effectivley.

Counting on people not paying attention hasn't been terribly profitable since about R4. At best, it would simply warrant a two-line entry in the Standard Book of Tactics:

if (target[mine_count] >> 0)
  attack(target, fleet[FI, target[mine_count]);

All an existing mine field would do is to ensure that a mass of fighters arrived a tick ahead of the main fleet; and since fighters already have a lower ETA anyway, the mines wouldn't even buy you any extra warning.

They'd require initiative 0 of course, and make sure that they can be tweaked to be cost effective and not mass buyable to gurantee a degree of balance. It would be nice to have a few ticks line of defense against general podding raids.

A build time of about 5 would also help defend against the flatten->pod technique.

I think cheap and quickly-built mines would be really bad news for DE and CR roiding fleets (since they're both slower and much more expensive); they'd have much less impact on CO roiding fleets (which are both faster and relatively cheap).

[MelAn]

Originally posted by IXI-alliance
I know mines have suggested many times before but i think the idea still has legs.

-A mine would cost say 750 eonium, 200 metal and 200 crystal and have the lifespan of say 7 days after which time it would need to be reactivated with some eonium.

-Mines can't move and are placed in orbit around the planet.

-Mines lock on to any enemy ships entering the area regardless of class and use small thrusters to manuvre within a few hundred feet of them before self destructing and destroying the ship. Due to them been a new technology they sometimes destroy defending ships by accident, the chances of them destroying an enemy ship are 5 times that of destroying a defending ship.

-Only about 15% of the attacking fleet can be destroyed each tick by mines.

...who cares about mines or pds...just defense s*** & waste of resources =8-]

Originally posted by MelAn
...who cares about mines or pds...just defense s*** & waste of resources =8-]

At this point in time, defenses are wastes of resources indeed. That doesn't mean they should always be waste of resources. I hope Round 10 will offer ways of efficient defense. Personally, I've always liked the idea of PDS.

[Hardin]

If mines could be built cheaply and quickly then they could act as a deterrent to attacking - so this would need be be balanced somehow...

What about a minesweeper class?

I have got to agree I have always wanted to see mines and they should not show as PDS but as other on a mill scan.

If mines did not Kill ships outright but damaged them you would still have to have ships or pds to kill off attckers but they would have a huge bonus.

Further to that you can have ships that are more anti mines like EMP and even have a mine harvestor that collects them and gives you RU's back s you can steal mines when attacking!!!

lots to think about though I doubt I will every see anything happen

[-=Zyth=-]

I suggested this way back in r1, it was never taken up. Would love to see them make an appearance. Viva la mines.

[Cochese]

What about using the mine idea as "astropod countermeasures"?

You would have to have a certain amount of mines per roid (which would increase with your roid count, making it unrealistic for biggies) for them to be effective, otherwise, the % of a mine stopping a pod would drop.

Probably a crap idea, but it's early in the morning

what about making mines cheap but them only lasting x days before coming unstable and self destructing. Make them so they have a build time of say 14hours meaning you cant just bulk buy them when you have incoming. It would add a new feature to the game but they could only be used in occasinal circumstances (eg when you know your gonna be attacked over the next few days) so it wouldnt change the whole nature of the game.

If in round 10 or 11 a trade elemement is intruduced mines could have the dis-advantage of lowing down or stopping trade alltogether. i think features like this need to be added to breathe fresh live into PA.

On a completely differant note why is Planetarion often refered to as PA, logically it should be PL?

dont like the thought of them "disapearing" sounds a waste of RU's - but if they were tied in with your roid count that would be very good as then small neebie planets would benifit more and BIG planets would not be able to make effective use of them!!

[The_Fish]

assuming mines hit the attackers fleets as they come to your planet, being in random places, why wouldnt they hit your attacking fleets?

[Scouse]

Originally posted by The_Fish
assuming mines hit the attackers fleets as they come to your planet, being in random places, why wouldnt they hit your attacking fleets?

Perhaps this idea might work if mines only hit attacking pod-type ships. Since they are the ships that have to collect the asteroids. They would then be a very good defensive tool to have.

They would have to be limited somehow though, so big players couldn't just build lots of them and make it ever harder to roid them.

Maybe make the price proportional to the amount of roids you've got.

[tyriel]

shouldnt it be a case of mining a galaxy rather than your planet ?

something that the MoD could actually do. <gasp>

if there were mines and minesweepers i'd kinda like to see them operate independently of attacking planets.. something along the lines of you attack a galaxy to disrupt its lines of supply and communication laying a seige.

from a "semi realism" perspective consider battleships attacking planets along with fighters... after all can 250k of fighters actual maneovre near a planet ? does the mass of a battleship prohibit it entering the strong gravitional effect of a planet ?

so fighters and corvettes attack planets or battleships(which are huge). frigates support the fighters against other ships
capital ships engage in a war for the galaxy. and target "fighters" as a massed sprawl.

star wars springs to mind with the concept of interdictors as well. (thats the ships that stop others going into hyperspace [retreat])

[edit: also the concept of "range". does a fighter contain enough fuel / engine capacity to travel across the universe without carrier / support.]

</2p>

that would be a super idea to have mines shared accross the whole galaxy - then attacking fleets would take damage as soon as they enter the galaxy regardless of what planet they are - and yhey could be waited so that the bigger ships attract the mines more than smaller, or even have it so that mines are put onto roids - hence they would only effect pods!!!

But if you did mines as a galaxy based idea then you could have it so only the MOD can purchase them .

And on the same planning you could have two levels of mine destroyer on ethat anyone can buy and use - the othet that only the MOW can buy and use for the good of the galaxy ??

[Domin]

For thoose who still didn't get it he didn't mean mines as in roids...

Anyway i don't like this. More good reasons for stay home at your planet idling?

Why make it harder to get roids when it already is priv gals?

why not only give it to randoms?

Seriouse i don't see the point of mines by working that way.

Imagine how fun ziko players will have using corsairs. while terran players cursing over buying harpies. Not atleast all the beetles and spiders.

Killing 15% of enemies fleets overall (equal res from each class) would be a draw back to cause u would have to expect to lose 15% of your ships everytime.

Even worse for 3 ticks! that's almost half the fleet in something you can't kill or counter. I never admired the defensive players of this game. sure they can bring alliance/friends vital defence in the start but they kinda fall of towards the end. Aswell it's alot more fun having everyone attacking rather than defending.

btw i can't spell

I disagree, the majority of players are small and cant handle big attacks eg. attack outweighs defence. Mines would make it more even, there are so many possibilities with the mines perhaps they could be more efficent for a small planet but become inefficent or expensive for big planets. Or mines being supper effective if the attacker(s) is much bigger than the defender but pretty lame if its an even fight. Another idea could be prolongers, huge space stations that can be activated at anytime (eg through a button) to stop ships retreating. So if you have incoming and cover it very well you can activate the station so they cant retreat till the three ticks are up. PA needs new ideas- its getting boring and repetitive, by adding features like mines and prologers the games not just about being big and powerfull its about being about using your resources to the best advantage. You can be a tiny player with huge incomings, mil scan them realise they have a flaw in there fleet lay down a few thousand mines and run. then stop them retreating with a prolonger. I know im babbling and most of this wont make sence but what about being able to capture roids back later in the battle. ATM when a pod captures a roid it automatically goes back to the planet but PA could be modified so that a roid captured in tick 1 could be recaputured in tick 2 or 3 by destroying the pod that captured it and is now idling waiting for the rest of the fleet to finish up before returning to base

[Cochese]

Make their effectiveness based on roidcount...the more roids you have, the more mines it takes to defend them (making them expensive without increasing their price).

There could (or should) be a ratio on one of your screens (either PDS or Resources) that shows current mine-to-roid ratio, and the effectiveness of your mines overall, just for simplicity.

The stats of of each mine would be determined by roidcount, and would change based on your roid-to-mine percentage.

Would this make them efficient and effective for small roidcount planets, while making them expensive and virtually useless to large ones?

Id like to see ideas like mines in future rounds

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by Cochese
Would this make them efficient and effective for small roidcount planets, while making them expensive and virtually useless to large ones?

Yes it would--depending on the specific details; but why would that be a good idea?

Many people want to protect small planets, and I can understand that to a certain degree, but most of the roids in the universe start out at small planets. Protecting the bottom of the food chain could have a significant, and perhaps very bad impact on the rest of the food chain. Also, by hardening small targets you may end up making bashing more common--if the only way to crack these "nuts" is with overwhelming force.

On the plus side, it might make farming a lot harder (or at least a lot easier to spot: no mines = farm).

[LORD-NIKO]

very interesting...

btw: with roids... what bout they could be empty after awile..
heh

and true they cant move but if they stay they ruin the game..
its about them

If mines were a technology very small planets wouldnt have developed them and what if your mine:roid ratio was too high, they sarted damaging your own ships and mines. heh the creators could even be creative with messages coming up saying "you have lost 30 interceptors after they strayed too close to a mine on a training exersise, you are advised to initiate more roids or de-activate some of your mines"

[Zeus]

great to see a good thread with people bounching ideas off others, I too think it could be built on so .... Keep it comming please

[Zeus]

Originally posted by james121
If mines were a technology very small planets wouldnt have developed them and what if your mine:roid ratio was too high, they sarted damaging your own ships and mines. heh the creators could even be creative with messages coming up saying "you have lost 30 interceptors after they strayed too close to a mine on a training exersise, you are advised to initiate more roids or de-activate some of your mines"

situations such as this not until round 10, ties in with a maintence costs, news reports & research.

[Cochese]

Originally posted by Tactitus
Yes it would--depending on the specific details; but why would that be a good idea?

Many people want to protect small planets, and I can understand that to a certain degree, but most of the roids in the universe start out at small planets. Protecting the bottom of the food chain could have a significant, and perhaps very bad impact on the rest of the food chain. Also, by hardening small targets you may end up making bashing more common--if the only way to crack these "nuts" is with overwhelming force.

On the plus side, it might make farming a lot harder (or at least a lot easier to spot: no mines = farm).

What if the mines were un-targettable by conventional ships, in the "astropod countermeasure" sense? They only target the various roid-grabbing ships + normal astropods, and the conventional ships couldn't target them.

i.e., the only way to "kill" them would be to pod flood your target, so your pods collide with mines and destroy them to "clear" the minefield...or perhaps go with the common suggestion of a "mine sweeper" class ship, that would have to accompany ("firing" on a lower initiative than any of the pod-type ships it would escort, as to clear mines before they attempted at capping roids/hitting mines) your pods, or be sent ahead of them.

[Fungi]

As for mines vs minesweeper, who would 'fire' first? Would minesweepers sweep for mines before firing or would the mines actually blow up the minesweepers as they were doing their job...

[Cochese]

Originally posted by Fungi
As for mines vs minesweeper, who would 'fire' first? Would minesweepers sweep for mines before firing or would the mines actually blow up the minesweepers as they were doing their job...

If the mines just blew up the minesweeper, you'd be better off just sending more pods (if they mines were used as anti-pod weapons) or some other 'flak' ship (like fighters) to soak up mine "fire".

Ideally, the minesweepers could have, say, a 5:1 ratio against mines (they would explode 5 mines before dying themselves) or something to make them slightly 'efficient'.

Of course it depends on the cost...if they are cheap, non-reusable, they would explode by hitting a mine. If expensive and non-reusable, they wouldn't be built (ppl would use fighters or somesuch as mine flak). If expensive and reusable (they "scan" for mines and detonate them remotely) they could be more effective.

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by Cochese
What if the mines were un-targettable by conventional ships, in the "astropod countermeasure" sense? They only target the various roid-grabbing ships + normal astropods, and the conventional ships couldn't target them.

If mines couldn't be targeted, then they'd just have to be "endured." Attackers would just send more pods and the cost of roids would go up. Attackers would either switch to targets without mines (if there were any), initiate their own roids instead (boring!), or just eat the extra cost and attack anyway.

Originally posted by Fungi
As for mines vs minesweeper, who would 'fire' first? Would minesweepers sweep for mines before firing or would the mines actually blow up the minesweepers as they were doing their job...

This is a problem with the PA combat engine.

If minesweepers fired before mines then that would open the door to bashing--bazillions of minesweepers clearing out vast minefields with little or no losses and departing a tick before the podding fleets arrive. You could finesse it a bit by making minesweepers target only mines, and giving them weak armor and agility--then they'd be easy fodder for PDS and ships. But this would just require minesweepers to be escorted by kill fleets.

If minesweepers fired after mines then it just becomes a mathematics problem: is it cheaper to send minesweepers or flak or what? See my above comments about the cost of roids.