Start r10 beta now!

[Chax]

For r10 to be a success we need to get the beta started asap. In previous betas there was never enough time. To get over this problem betas should start way before the previous round ends.

With the announced little changes for r9 the r10 beta should be able to start right now. And when I say start I don't mean a running game. There is no need for a server to host the beta game yet, all that's needed are the following:

1. A beta team
2. Some beta testers
3. Beta forums open and read.
4. Beta channel staffed and running.
5. Objectives
6. Rules.

To begin with there could be but one objective, sprouting ideas and discussing those ideas. With lots of time the sky is the limit.
Later on the creators having thought things through can submit their ideas for discussion and picking apart. Finally when all has been gone over and over things can be coded and then the beta game can be set up.

Once the beta game is running there has to be a point to it other than a free speedgame, that's not why beta is there. The testers need objectives, points to test, missions to accomplish and then discuss. Once the testing of the current objective is done an announcement of that should be made and then maybe speedgaming allowed merely to keep the testers awake until a new objective is set. Hopefully this shouldn't take very long so that productive testing can commence again within hours, not days.

A list of things to test can be maintained and items ticked off as the testing progresses. This would facilitate the picking of objectives for each testing round. Hopefully this would lead to everything being thouroughly tested and in order for round 10.

I hope I will be allowed to help make r10 as good as possible so that we can not only keep this excellent game alive, but also see it thrive with an expanding community.

[-QS-]

Give em some time to think about details and put those ideas into a beta dude...

[Smugs]

They have to do this thing called Codeing the game due to the fact they are restrting from scratch, so that means they will need a while to....

Think of Ideas
Pick the Ideas
Code it
Check and recode if needed
Then Produce the Beta

So you are looking at while for R10

[Chax]

You two are kicking in open doors here with me. A conspiracy theorist would think that you were in kahoots with me because you're saying things I have already included in my first post yet pretending to disagree.

[Gayle29uk]

I think you'll find they're saying that there IS no R10 code yet, you can't run a beta on non-existant code . It's a complete rewrite remember?

[Chax]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
I think you'll find they're saying that there IS no R10 code yet, you can't run a beta on non-existant code . It's a complete rewrite remember?

I think you too failed to read my post. Coding comes rather late in the procedure I outlined above.

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Chax
I think you too failed to read my post. Coding comes rather late in the procedure I outlined above.

I just reread it and you totally misunderstand the point of beta testing. What you're talkign about is the design phase and it has nothing to do with the players. Then you code, alpha test, then allow people in on the beta

As has been pointed out before, under no circumstances whatsoever do you allow players of any game to be part of the design team. Ideas are always welcome but only informally What you suggest can all be done by people posting on PD.

[mbushell]

I think you've indeed misunderstood what a beta test actually is Chax - Although, not certain, I’m fairly confident that PA know how to develop a winning game, they have done it once already. It's good to suggest improvements but think them through first.

[Coffee]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
As has been pointed out before, under no circumstances whatsoever do you allow players of any game to be part of the design team. Ideas are always welcome but only informally What you suggest can all be done by people posting on PD.

Its been pointed out before? Possibly by you - and that doesnt make it true. Your effectivley saying I should have no say in the design of round 10?

Are you mad?

Spinner + co have proved repeatedly they cant make a decent game, and if they are not going to use people who know the game backwards to bounce ideas off of then who are they going to use? counter-strike players?!?

People posting on PD is useless. As proved in the other thread by someone saying (contrary to my opinion) that free accounts should not get news + mill scans, and if only 10% (best estimate) are capable of thinking ideas through properly they will just get drowned out by the other 90% who cant see the full picture.

Good players can look at most changes without having to see the game (let alone any code that has been written) and immediatley tell all the possible abuses + problems associated with it. Actually running a 'beta' isnt that necessary.

What do you suggest they do for rd 10?

[Coffee]

And in pa 'beta' has always referred to every aspect of a the creation of a new round, the terminology may be wrong but thats just the way it is.

[wakey]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
I just reread it and you totally misunderstand the point of beta testing. What you're talkign about is the design phase and it has nothing to do with the players. Then you code, alpha test, then allow people in on the beta

As has been pointed out before, under no circumstances whatsoever do you allow players of any game to be part of the design team. Ideas are always welcome but only informally What you suggest can all be done by people posting on PD.

Not to mention its still too early for any real thought to be put into r10. They need to get the basic structure in place for r9 before the real thoughts for r10. They are still debating if to stick to a full p2p model or have some form of free accounts (although I very much doubt you'll get the completly free round that you lot are after), what incentives can be offered to get you to p2p, the cost of playing, if the universe will be private, random or a mix and other such aspects that need decided before anything else can be worked on.

[Coffee]

Originally posted by wakey
Not to mention its still too early for any real thought to be put into r10. They need to get the basic structure in place for r9 before the real thoughts for r10. They are still debating if to stick to a full p2p model or have some form of free accounts (although I very much doubt you'll get the completly free round that you lot are after), what incentives can be offered to get you to p2p, the cost of playing, if the universe will be private, random or a mix and other such aspects that need decided before anything else can be worked on.

Pa needs redesigned from the ground up. round 9 is just going to be a lightly tweaked rd8 and what does it hurt to get some people together to start discussing what is actually going to work?

Unless rd10 will just be a tweaked rd9 in which case I might as well just leave now rather than waiting for the end.

[wakey]

Coffee it matters because without a R9 there cant be a R10

The baiscs need established so r9 can start and development of r10 can go into full swing

[K0loth]

A Round 10 board on this forum that is heavily moderated would allow ideas and discussions to take place imo. Perhaps a moderator could then sticky the most popular features.

[mbushell]

Perhaps a suggestions board would be useful if the popular ideas were actually considered. Doesn't spinner already have a vague idea of what he wants to do with PA now? I'm getting those 'i know what i'm doing already' vibes.

[Noctu]

Coffee, d'you actually read other people's posts, or just like to read your own text?

[Coffee]

Originally posted by Noctu
Coffee, d'you actually read other people's posts, or just like to read your own text?

I do admit to being a bit of an egomaniac sometimes

But, I am well aware about rd9. It will not save pa, rd10 will. Unless round 10 is everything people expect it to be then there is no future for pa - rd9 is irrelevant and I wont be playing it anyway.

Every single round so far has been rushed out well before beta'ing has finished to the detriment of the round in total. All Chax is really suggesting is a forum to discuss the basis of the game on. rd9 is not relevant as it will just be p2p lightly tweaked version of the current to pay salaries while rd10 gets worked on.

[Noctu]

Yeah. The term 'Beta Test' has been thrown around far too much in this thread. :/

A forum for suggestions as to what's going to be in round 10 -is- a good idea. Any one of the forums we've got here already will work for that, though, as our creators do read them.

-shrug-

[Radium-^]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
I think you'll find they're saying that there IS no R10 code yet, you can't run a beta on non-existant code . It's a complete rewrite remember?

I mother once told me i should think before i speak, i did't listen though, how about you ?

[Radium-^]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
I just reread it and you totally misunderstand the point of beta testing. What you're talkign about is the design phase and it has nothing to do with the players. Then you code, alpha test, then allow people in on the beta

As has been pointed out before, under no circumstances whatsoever do you allow players of any game to be part of the design team. Ideas are always welcome but only informally What you suggest can all be done by people posting on PD.

You still didn't understand his post, oh well, i tried.

[Petru]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
As has been pointed out before, under no circumstances whatsoever do you allow players of any game to be part of the design team.

It was a group of players (including Coffee) that designed the races that were played r6 to date, and likely onwards to r10 or beyond.

Research before speaking.

As it stands, I'm quite confident there will be no "ideas forum" as there has been to a degree in the past, one of the few snippets of information that HAS been released to the team is that Spinner & co will have exclusive design say for the forthcoming round 10. We all know how much Mr Lassem loves his ideas (no offence Chris, you're a marvelous bloke and someone I respect immensely given the crap this game has given you, but your ideas are extreme usually ) I don't think we'll be seeing the level of player input we have r6/7/8 on design.

It's probably likely a beta is being arranged behind closed doors for round 9, as I haven't been booted from Team and nothings been said there regarding a beta yet, but it's getting on a bit so I expect something is being done.

The plan, as ever, is indeed a long and progressive beta programme for r10. On what level this programme is operated remains to be seen, as indeed does the fact of it's existance or not yet. As with everything PA, it's a "wait and see" event, with some baited expectation of happenings going on out of public eye only to find later it hasn't started yet

The main thing people need to realise is round 9 will be nothing, nothing at all, I expect some stat tweaking on ships and maybe a couple of game issues sorted, but otherwise it will be thrown to the public with the minimum of effort (and rightly so) to allow immediate development and design of r10 to commence. So drop the idea that most of you seem to have that round 9 will be revolutionary, and start thinking long term for round 10 (hoping of course it won't just be a "Here, test this, we'll ignore feedback and change as we want" style of testing).

[Chax]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
I just reread it and you totally misunderstand the point of beta testing. What you're talkign about is the design phase and it has nothing to do with the players. Then you code, alpha test, then allow people in on the beta

As has been pointed out before, under no circumstances whatsoever do you allow players of any game to be part of the design team. Ideas are always welcome but only informally What you suggest can all be done by people posting on PD.

Possibly my usage of the term beta isn't correct by your definition, however I'm discussing Planetarion specifically and thus using the term beta in this specific sense.

There are 2 things to test in PA.
1. That the stats and ideas work as intended
2. That the code works as intended

PA is a game of numbers. You don't need the code in place to test the stats and ideas. So first you can start the imortant part of the testing, the ideas and this can begin now. The actual coding can be done later and starting the ideas testing now would give ample time to the coders to get it right. After that the actual beta game can start running and a few bugs may or may not be found. I suppose this last part is what you would define as a beta.

[Steve_G]

you guys amuse me sometimes, people who have no idea wtf there talking about trying to make sense on this subject

a: gayle stop posting on beta threads until u get a clue
b: wakey why is r9 brought up so often as a new thing with you when its already been stated that its basically gonna be r8 all over again

[wakey]

I also find it amusing when people like you Steve_G arent able to engage their brains and think about things before posting.

No where in my post did I say that r9 was going to be a 'new thing' BUT NO matter how much you all claim r9 is totally UNIMPORTANT there are aspects of it that atm are more important than the r10 plans. Yes it bears little relivence to r10 of PA and yes the game will mostly just be a tweaked r8 but that doesnt mean they can just ignore it. They want those who play r9 to have fun and thus stick around for r10 so there are are the issues that I mentioned in my first post that they are really having to think about before deciding. R9 is also important for jolt because it will be their first round hosting and handling payments for PA and this is another area that has to be sorted before round 10 is even thought about.

The remaining r9 issues need sorted first!

[Petru]

Originally posted by wakey
They want those who play r9 to have fun and thus stick around for r10

The general consensus seems to differ somewhat, I'm a strong believer in the "purge" theory, that a dull and bad round with strict and nazi new boards is design to drive away the old core.

But that's just me

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Steve_G
a: gayle stop posting on beta threads until u get a clue

Stop assuming you know what you're talking about just because you're 'Steve_G, I used to be in beta crew you know. Did I mention that already?'. I've forgotten more about software design than you'll ever know so I shouldn't be too quick to venture opinions on the subject if I were you.

[xtrasyn]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Stop assuming you know what you're talking about just because you're 'Steve_G, I used to be in beta crew you know. Did I mention that already?'. I've forgotten more about software design than you'll ever know so I shouldn't be too quick to venture opinions on the subject if I were you.

Steve G is a wonderful person.

I know because I have been told so.

[Veil05]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Stop assuming you know what you're talking about just because you're 'Steve_G, I used to be in beta crew you know. Did I mention that already?'. I've forgotten more about software design than you'll ever know so I shouldn't be too quick to venture opinions on the subject if I were you.

Question: who are u?

i seen u pop up on forums 1 day with an ego to suite anakin/xd212's

most ppl have nfi who u are, care to give me a bit of background.

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Veil05
Question: who are u?

i seen u pop up on forums 1 day with an ego to suite anakin/xd212's

most ppl have nfi who u are, care to give me a bit of background.

I'm no-one important. The important thing is that unlike some people I realise this

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
I'm no-one important. The important thing is that unlike some people I realise this

FYI : The best way of justifying this oh-so modest viewpoint is probably not in "I've forgotten more than you'll ever know" type posts.

Ta,

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
FYI : The best way of justifying this oh-so modest viewpoint is probably not in "I've forgotten more than you'll ever know" type posts.

...know about software development. A pretty specific field that I happen to know about. Just because I choose to work in tech support doesn't mean I don't know one end of a compiler from the other.

There's also a great difference between being knowledgable and being important, I can easily be one without being the other

erhm...

chax, i believe what you're describing is generally known as an alpha test (kindof).

Involving the number of peopel you'd get in a beta stage at this stage would be insane - far too much stuff to go through, it'd add months to the process

[Tactitus]

On the beta forums, I always changed my title to "Alpha Tester," as I thought it was a more appropriate description of what we were doing.

Anyway, the 'typical' PA beta test has gone something like this:

Creator: OK, we have 3 new features to test for next round. Feature 'A' is done; please try it and see how well it works. Feature 'B' is half implemented and we'd like some feedback before proceding. Feature 'C' should be done next week--more on that later.
Beta testers: Hm, 'A' looks really bad--it'll be horribly abused. 'B' looks kinda interesting, but there's not enough there to tell yet. How about doing features 'D', 'E', 'F' and 'G'?
Creator: No, 'A' is good. You're just not looking at it in the right way.
Beta testers: No it isn't.
Creator: Yes it is.
Beta testers: No it isn't.
(repeat for several days; finally a poll is taken and 90% of beta testers think 'A' is a really bad idea and at least needs a major overhaul. Creator retreats to his tent to sulk for a week or two (or maybe to code--nobody knows). With minimal direction, beta testers work on ship stats and argue about how 'A' could/should be fixed and why they like 'D', 'E', 'F' and 'G' and report miscellaneous bugs and of course, powerplay).
Creator: OK, we've dropped 'A'; 'B' is done--give it a try. I guess we won't get to 'C'. Beta ends tomorrow.
Beta testers: Say what?
(beta ends. Two new features--'X' and 'Y', which were never tested or even discussed during the beta--get added and turn out to be the most disliked features of the new round.)


I sure hope R10 beta will be different; but I'm not sure that would be the smart bet. :/

[Coffee]

Originally posted by Gayle28uk
There's also a great difference between being knowledgable and being important, I can easily be one without being the other

But your not important.

[aza1]

Leave Gayle alone people; she has as much right to post her opinion here as anyone else.

[Coffee]

Originally posted by aza1
Leave Gayle alone people; she has as much right to post her opinion here as anyone else.

Shush fanboy. And note the smiley.

[Hicks]

Originally posted by aza1
Leave Gayle alone people; she has as much right to post her opinion here as anyone else.

No she doesn't she's female.

HAHA PLD ME.

[Cochese]

Originally posted by Tactitus
On the beta forums, I always changed my title to "Alpha Tester," as I thought it was a more appropriate description of what we were doing.

Anyway, the 'typical' PA beta test has gone something like this:

Creator: OK, we have 3 new features to test for next round. Feature 'A' is done; please try it and see how well it works. Feature 'B' is half implemented and we'd like some feedback before proceding. Feature 'C' should be done next week--more on that later.
Beta testers: Hm, 'A' looks really bad--it'll be horribly abused. 'B' looks kinda interesting, but there's not enough there to tell yet. How about doing features 'D', 'E', 'F' and 'G'?
Creator: No, 'A' is good. You're just not looking at it in the right way.
Beta testers: No it isn't.
Creator: Yes it is.
Beta testers: No it isn't.
(repeat for several days; finally a poll is taken and 90% of beta testers think 'A' is a really bad idea and at least needs a major overhaul. Creator retreats to his tent to sulk for a week or two (or maybe to code--nobody knows). With minimal direction, beta testers work on ship stats and argue about how 'A' could/should be fixed and why they like 'D', 'E', 'F' and 'G' and report miscellaneous bugs and of course, powerplay).
Creator: OK, we've dropped 'A'; 'B' is done--give it a try. I guess we won't get to 'C'. Beta ends tomorrow.
Beta testers: Say what?
(beta ends. Two new features--'X' and 'Y', which were never tested or even discussed during the beta--get added and turn out to be the most disliked features of the new round.)


I sure hope R10 beta will be different; but I'm not sure that would be the smart bet. :/

Someone give that man a trophy!


That's the finest description of beta I've ever read. I am saving it on my computer for reference, and a emailing a copy to Spinner.

[Veil05]

Originally posted by aza1
Leave Gayle alone people; she has as much right to post her opinion here as anyone else.

even if she is wrong?

[Al_zz]

Originally posted by Chax

To begin with there could be but one objective, sprouting ideas and discussing those ideas. With lots of time the sky is the limit.
Later on the creators having thought things through can submit their ideas for discussion and picking apart.

What has this got to do with Betatestteam or any testteam for that matter. This is something for a games development team. You want to keep these guys coming up with the ideas far away from the actual testteam.

My boss would really have a good laugh if I suggested I'd test my own softwaredesigns.

hAl

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by Al_zz
What has this got to do with Betatestteam or any testteam for that matter.

And what does a beta test team--or any test team for that matter--have to do with PA?

This is something for a games development team.

Yeah; and who would that be?

You want to keep these guys coming up with the ideas far away from the actual testteam.

What PA calls beta testing is probably closer to alpha testing/design prototyping.

My boss would really have a good laugh if I suggested I'd test my own softwaredesigns.

I'd suggest not confusing the world of professional software development with PA--that just leads to disappointment, misery, and despair.

[Al_zz]

Originally posted by Tactitus
I'd suggest not confusing the world of professional software development with PA--that just leads to disappointment, misery, and despair.

Probably true

[Knight Theamion]

personally i would like to do this


1 ) get spinner and co to generate some ideas
2 ) hand them over to a commity commision (also known as TEH BETATESTERS) pref. with me having a large vote in it
3 ) hand and sell it back to spinner.

also


who would like to see me in a beta/design team again ?

[Andy_r]

I think the important point here (once you strip out all the bickering) is:

The PA community can provide a highly skilled team of strategic minds to advise Spinner on the implications of new features.

If Spinner wants to tap into this resource, it would obviously be best to do this before coding starts, to avoid going down any dead-ends.

[G.K Zhukov]

Tacticus post about pa beta and creators made me laugh. Tnx

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally posted by Andy_r
I think the important point here (once you strip out all the bickering) is:

The PA community can provide a highly skilled team of strategic minds to advise Spinner on the implications of new features.

If Spinner wants to tap into this resource, it would obviously be best to do this before coding starts, to avoid going down any dead-ends.

if Spinner wants.... right, I dont think we live long enough to see that.

[Petru]

Originally posted by Tactitus
On the beta forums, I always changed my title to "Alpha Tester," as I thought it was a more appropriate description of what we were doing.

Anyway, the 'typical' PA beta test has gone something like this:

Creator: OK, we have 3 new features to test for next round. Feature 'A' is done; please try it and see how well it works. Feature 'B' is half implemented and we'd like some feedback before proceding. Feature 'C' should be done next week--more on that later.
Beta testers: Hm, 'A' looks really bad--it'll be horribly abused. 'B' looks kinda interesting, but there's not enough there to tell yet. How about doing features 'D', 'E', 'F' and 'G'?
Creator: No, 'A' is good. You're just not looking at it in the right way.
Beta testers: No it isn't.
Creator: Yes it is.
Beta testers: No it isn't.
(repeat for several days; finally a poll is taken and 90% of beta testers think 'A' is a really bad idea and at least needs a major overhaul. Creator retreats to his tent to sulk for a week or two (or maybe to code--nobody knows). With minimal direction, beta testers work on ship stats and argue about how 'A' could/should be fixed and why they like 'D', 'E', 'F' and 'G' and report miscellaneous bugs and of course, powerplay).
Creator: OK, we've dropped 'A'; 'B' is done--give it a try. I guess we won't get to 'C'. Beta ends tomorrow.
Beta testers: Say what?
(beta ends. Two new features--'X' and 'Y', which were never tested or even discussed during the beta--get added and turn out to be the most disliked features of the new round.)


I sure hope R10 beta will be different; but I'm not sure that would be the smart bet. :/

Tact wins by far, far far far far, very far.

Nothing else to be said.

[Miccksey]

tactical victory by tacticus

good ol times returning

[Devo]

Originally posted by Chax
For r10 to be a success we need to get the beta started asap. In previous betas there was never enough time. To get over this problem betas should start way before the previous round ends.

Of all the stupid ideas... what is the point in have a beta round if there is NOTHING TO TEST! They are re-coding the entire thing! You can't just re-code planetarion in a week and start beta testing. You have to give things time...

Like when the Dutch brew the... oh wait sorry, forgot this isn't an advert for whatever its called.

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by Tactitus
On the beta forums, I always changed my title to "Alpha Tester," as I thought it was a more appropriate description of what we were doing.

Anyway, the 'typical' PA beta test has gone something like this:

Creator: OK, we have 3 new features to test for next round. Feature 'A' is done; please try it and see how well it works. Feature 'B' is half implemented and we'd like some feedback before proceding. Feature 'C' should be done next week--more on that later.
Beta testers: Hm, 'A' looks really bad--it'll be horribly abused. 'B' looks kinda interesting, but there's not enough there to tell yet. How about doing features 'D', 'E', 'F' and 'G'?
Creator: No, 'A' is good. You're just not looking at it in the right way.
Beta testers: No it isn't.
Creator: Yes it is.
Beta testers: No it isn't.
(repeat for several days; finally a poll is taken and 90% of beta testers think 'A' is a really bad idea and at least needs a major overhaul. Creator retreats to his tent to sulk for a week or two (or maybe to code--nobody knows). With minimal direction, beta testers work on ship stats and argue about how 'A' could/should be fixed and why they like 'D', 'E', 'F' and 'G' and report miscellaneous bugs and of course, powerplay).
Creator: OK, we've dropped 'A'; 'B' is done--give it a try. I guess we won't get to 'C'. Beta ends tomorrow.
Beta testers: Say what?
(beta ends. Two new features--'X' and 'Y', which were never tested or even discussed during the beta--get added and turn out to be the most disliked features of the new round.)


I sure hope R10 beta will be different; but I'm not sure that would be the smart bet. :/

spot on