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Unread 22 Dec 2002, 23:25   #1
r72dk
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PA Team, REAL BETA TEST team and REAL community participation. Maybe its about time?

I guess its self explanatory.

For years, this game was run by PA team solo ideas, PA community having litlle voice or vote amongst the changes on the game itself. I know that there was a Beta Team before and prolyl still exists, but as well i know that, i know that their opinions are seldom heard and understood, thus reaching no safe port.

Maybe the best change in this last roudns was the introducing the new ship stats and races, and afaik was designed by players. PA team developed some preliminary stats for several races which i had access and tbh wouldnt have brought anythg new, much less given that there was no clear advantages between races. This is just a statement of the best evolution PA has had lately and of PA community value.

So i ask, and ask for PA team understandment and humility, to create a DECENT and REAL beta test team. And who´s better to hear than us the players who so much complain? There are those who complain without a reason, there are those that dont care but there are a LOT that even without playing for months still care, still thrive to look ways to help, still keep posting v good suggestions, reckon understandment for your position as businessmans, and why we do keep on i have no idea, maybe we just dont stand to see a game that IT HAS BEEN part of our life for so long, just go down due to stubborness of a few.

This is the same PA team that has been with us for so long, and cant say it aint an advantage for PA cause, at least we´re all familiar to each others. Now it just takes a bit of willingness to make things better, and as it was posted endless times before, there ARE ppl who are willing to do hard-work for free, all it takes its PA team reckoning on community abilities and suggestions.

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Unread 22 Dec 2002, 23:28   #2
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Nice post dude

( btw, hereby first to signup )
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Unread 22 Dec 2002, 23:28   #3
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Unread 22 Dec 2002, 23:36   #4
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Its also how much your friendly / suck up to pa crew or know hme in rl or something which affects if ur gonan be a tester (no i dont want to be one, and no im not bitter) im just an idle pa player who has never paid for a round himself
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Unread 22 Dec 2002, 23:48   #5
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It needs to be overhauled.

Petru needs to be the ONLY one to start with, and hand-pick himself a new Beta Crew.

After testing for awhile, open it up to a "mass beta" for all to try, and comment on, prior to starting the real game round.

PA Team members shouldn't have anything to do with it, aside from Petru (unless he picks a Team member for the Beta Crew, and that's his perogative).

I trust Petru's judgement.
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Unread 22 Dec 2002, 23:49   #6
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yes he did well in the past

if anyone can pick a decent team its him
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Unread 22 Dec 2002, 23:56   #7
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Petru's done good.

The creators overriding him on issues done bad
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 00:04   #8
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The players in the beta have always had their say and usually the players in beta know their stuff.

Problem was that usually the beta crew and the pa HQ had 'disagreements' about the game, and the HQ just pretty much did what they wanted. So what you see is that every round you have a few last minute changes implemented by the HQ that have a profound impact on the game.

However, I am quite sure that for R10 it will be different, and that is what we should be concentrating on imo.
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 00:37   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by ParraCida
The players in the beta have always had their say and usually the players in beta know their stuff.

Problem was that usually the beta crew and the pa HQ had 'disagreements' about the game, and the HQ just pretty much did what they wanted. So what you see is that every round you have a few last minute changes implemented by the HQ that have a profound impact on the game.

However, I am quite sure that for R10 it will be different, and that is what we should be concentrating on imo.
The betas in the past have been a complete waste of time, because the creators never listened or gave feedback on the ideas and suggestions we gave.

It was just a big power play waste of time :@~
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 00:41   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kileman

It was just a big power play waste of time :@~
I wouldnt say it was a complete waste, it allowed people like Killmark and some others to perfect thier Bot building skills.
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 00:53   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ulysses
I wouldnt say it was a complete waste, it allowed people like Killmark and some others to perfect thier Bot building skills.

Killmark wasn't in any recent beta I can recall, nor were there any bots.

Trust me. Everytime you attacked someone, they either pm'd you on irc or mailed to complain.
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 00:55   #12
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Petru has doen good indeed.

I trust him as beta leader and beta-team-picker.
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 01:15   #13
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seems you many ppl fancy petru a lot

but somethg that shuold be considered, if petru comes to pick a team, and IF it keeps for long unchanged, wont it happen to create the same situations as earlier on. Im not taking credit frmo whom deserves most, but i guess its natural that when ppl maintain positions for long, some innevitable things start happening, mainly using their situation for their profit, in this case, using beta for game advantage only, which was a critic ive read abuot some ppl in BETas Teams.

Another topic, should Petru select a team, how contact with PA community would be dealt, not to mass PA community but to a few that can present real problems of everyone, in order to develop trust and more efficiency. Moreover, how to avoid again the last thoughts of the early paragraph.

A channel, a forum, a "senate" (guess it was done before for no good), a static or dynamic team? How much influence shuold Beta Team have with PA crew, how tolerant were they? Those are a few question that come to my mind as i type.

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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 02:35   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kileman
The betas in the past have been a complete waste of time, because the creators never listened or gave feedback on the ideas and suggestions we gave.

It was just a big power play waste of time :@~
That's nonsense, the betas served their purpose allright. A lot of big game changes came from them that were suggested by the players (OB attack/def for instance).

And yeah I know, they don't listen enough, but everyone has their own ideas about this game but in the end its THEM who have the authority. Don't get me wrong, they should listen more to the players during beta
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 05:00   #15
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Can't say they didn't listen or always listen

Spinner did listen to betatesters:
The changes to zikonian stealer classes (targetting)

Spinner didn't listen to betatesters:
Most people in the beta disagreed with the steep exile costs

It differs from case to case.
If they'd listened to me though the sentinel wouldn't be as good as it was :P
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 07:42   #16
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as a past beta crew member i can attest to most of these things, some of the ideas that came out of it were sheer brilliance and others were crap

its the fact that so many of the brilliant ideas were overlooked. that put a damper on things, i think possibly the old crew with a few additions, the fact that there are multiple coders now, and a new company whos actually willing to help make these changes happen would lead to a vast improvement of this game.
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 09:56   #17
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Heres something new for you... I've heard your suggestions and critisisms, and I will take them to meetings.

The Beta testing will be fair, and all suggestions will be listened to and throught through. As its been brought up in many other threads, everyone on the team is on high spirits, we're all ready to do everything right and make the right decisions. Before hand, the old creators weren't getting paid for a number of months, they didnt have the money, the time or the motivation.

As I said, I will bring the whole problem of decent beta testing up with the other creators. Round 10 is going to rock, it goes without saying that the beta testing for it must also be bloody excellent.

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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 10:00   #18
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I'm going to step out on a limb and put some faith in you m8.
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 10:17   #19
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Thanks, I did set my forum title for a reason

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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 10:19   #20
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You can probably guess the reaction if you don't live up to it then, eh
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 11:09   #21
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so...

I am sure Petru can put together a ok betateam, but he alone .... i dno.

He has somewhat put together the last ones aswell, and mebbe there could b room to some new blood within betatesting.

He will prolly choose all those 'leet' gimps he know who ahs bettested for rnds and rnds already.

There is a fairly good possibility that there are people capable of doing a job atleast as good as those betatesters we have seen the alst rnds out there.
Just a thought nehow.
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 11:39   #22
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Re: PA Team, REAL BETA TEST team and REAL community participation. Maybe its about time?

Quote:
Originally posted by r72dk
I guess its self explanatory.

For years, this game was run by PA team solo ideas, PA community having litlle voice or vote amongst the changes on the game itself. I know that there was a Beta Team before and prolyl still exists, but as well i know that, i know that their opinions are seldom heard and understood, thus reaching no safe port.

Maybe the best change in this last roudns was the introducing the new ship stats and races, and afaik was designed by players. PA team developed some preliminary stats for several races which i had access and tbh wouldnt have brought anythg new, much less given that there was no clear advantages between races. This is just a statement of the best evolution PA has had lately and of PA community value.

So i ask, and ask for PA team understandment and humility, to create a DECENT and REAL beta test team. And who´s better to hear than us the players who so much complain? There are those who complain without a reason, there are those that dont care but there are a LOT that even without playing for months still care, still thrive to look ways to help, still keep posting v good suggestions, reckon understandment for your position as businessmans, and why we do keep on i have no idea, maybe we just dont stand to see a game that IT HAS BEEN part of our life for so long, just go down due to stubborness of a few.

This is the same PA team that has been with us for so long, and cant say it aint an advantage for PA cause, at least we´re all familiar to each others. Now it just takes a bit of willingness to make things better, and as it was posted endless times before, there ARE ppl who are willing to do hard-work for free, all it takes its PA team reckoning on community abilities and suggestions.

r72dk
I actually have a major problem with the whole "vote amongst the changes on the game itself". Giving people a chance to view their suggestions ect is fine and can help bring new features which aid the game but theres major problems with implementing ideas just because its popular amongst the Community or Beta Testers. Why do you say this I hear you ask well
1) People by nature are biased. No matter HOW fair you try and be your in game ties are going to effect your views slightly so you could have a group of testers or posters on the forums who love a certain idea BUT this small sample doesnt give the correct representation
2)Beta Tests are also not a fair representation due to them being speed games. Obviously you cant run them in normal time as you wouldnt get enough testing done the more you speed things up the harder it becomes to judge certain aspects. This is ok for tests like ships stats but some other areas are hard
3)No matter who you pick there will be someone who will just be tehre to win. I remember early betas used to run on the basis of working in small groups to test certain aspects of attacking ect but a few people went out to abuse the fast ticks so they could win. They would just go around destroying everyones ships so those trying to run the specified tests couldnt. Wasnt such a problem later on when the whole idea was changed to trying to win but imho testing like this isnt as good in certain areas
4)We the players dont have the same understanding of the game as those behind it. Only those behind the game have the real understanding of the game, we the players only know how to play it.

Basically it all comes down to the 1st rule of games design "Make a game you like and others will like it, try and please your customers and your please no-one and have a game no-one likes".

YES we should post suggestions
AND YES suggestions should be read
AND YES we need Betas
AND YES betas can highlight problems
AND YES we should give feedback in betas
AND YES Feedback should be listend to
BUT NO features/changes ect shouldnt be added/made just because they are popular.Being popular doesnt mean its good for the game on the whole
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 12:37   #23
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Re: so...

Quote:
Originally posted by das_experiment
I am sure Petru can put together a ok betateam, but he alone .... i dno.

He has somewhat put together the last ones aswell, and mebbe there could b room to some new blood within betatesting.

He will prolly choose all those 'leet' gimps he know who ahs bettested for rnds and rnds already.

There is a fairly good possibility that there are people capable of doing a job atleast as good as those betatesters we have seen the alst rnds out there.
Just a thought nehow.
Beta testing is aquite intensive job. It takes lotsa hours a day, for a few weeks long. So it's logical people are picked who are known for their activity. And ofc those people are wellknown in the gaming community. You call them 'leet', but it's not about that, it's about the activity.

There are lots of good and (ofc) also bad ideas born in the betatest team. The lack of changes cant be blamed on the team's inspiration. Last round the main problem was for example the lack of time one of the reasons some changes could not be executed. Another one the difficulty to code them. And ofc there are still the Creators, with their own opinion...

And there ARE most likely more people who could bring new ideas and betatest, but do you REALLY think they will have more influence on the creators then the present team?

EDIT: the ones powerplaying should be banned ofc
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 12:42   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kileman
The betas in the past have been a complete waste of time, because the creators never listened or gave feedback on the ideas and suggestions we gave.

It was just a big power play waste of time :@~
So true.

Things have been improving since Petru started but the problem of people pulling rank and 'tweaking' is still as large as ever - and more work needs to be spent on getting suitable beta testers, not mention actually having a testing schedule. And I could rant on for hours about powerplayers but im not going to :)
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 13:21   #25
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i have always been against powerplaying beta rounds

there never should have been any to begin with

ill admit throwing on in every now and then to keep the testers happy (i mean they do alot of work already) should be permitted, but several in a row is pointless when everyone knows the ship combos used in beta powerplays nearly never have any actual effect onto the real time game

all any beta really needs is a strong team (willing to accept and try out/plan out different suggestions) and keep the testers in line (when needed, yes there are some very bad moments)

and of course the most important of all a good (select) group of testers, god forbid we even think about the time it was open to public alliances and stuff (pure waste of time)

ill be the 1st to admit while new blood in the testers part is a must, there should definatly be some standards set, like a questionairre and maybe a small essay (we did it b4 and got a few decent testers out of it)

those are just a few things floating around on my mind
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 13:32   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve_G
and of course the most important of all a good (select) group of testers, god forbid we even think about the time it was open to public alliances and stuff (pure waste of time)
Somehow I knew you'd say that Not being a bitch or anything but you WERE the one who just HAD to announce to the whole world that he was in the beta team by making it his planet name! You also got some grief in R7 for mentioning it in every single post you made on the forums, it's quite evident you considered yourself 'one of the elite' because you were in the beta. Newsflash time, almost every major game on the net has a public (limited, but public) beta before 'going gold'. Alpha testing and initial betas need to be closed, late betas need to be open to get the best results from them. It's simple, if people piss about you remove them, if they do their job as beta testers you let them stay. There are NO appeals, there is NO questioning, Petru (or whoever is running the beta) gets the first, last, and only word there. Being part of a beta test should not be an elitist thing but quite the opposite, you are merely part of an open process to test both the dynamics of the game and the server-side implementation.
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 13:41   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Somehow I knew you'd say that Not being a bitch or anything but you WERE the one who just HAD to announce to the whole world that he was in the beta team by making it his planet name! You also got some grief in R7 for mentioning it in every single post you made on the forums, it's quite evident you considered yourself 'one of the elite' because you were in the beta. Newsflash time, almost every major game on the net has a public (limited, but public) beta before 'going gold'. Alpha testing and initial betas need to be closed, late betas need to be open to get the best results from them. It's simple, if people piss about you remove them, if they do their job as beta testers you let them stay. There are NO appeals, there is NO questioning, Petru (or whoever is running the beta) gets the first, last, and only word there. Being part of a beta test should not be an elitist thing but quite the opposite, you are merely part of an open process to test both the dynamics of the game and the server-side implementation.

a: everyone already knew i was in beta crew when i changed my planet name to it, it was actually a joke between myself and many of the beta testers

b: it was in my sig as it was 80% of the other testers/crew another joke (so obviously it was mentioned in my posts)

c: you seem to have mixed up the Crew and Tester part, i was crew from r5-r8 not just someone who was playin around,

i always took beta tests seriously as they decided the fate of the next round, not a joking manner

and last of all d: you did come off as a bitch


oh and i was already known before i was in beta crew, i was know before i was in beta tests (otherwise i wouldnt have gotten in obviously)

as for elite, always have been always will be \o/
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 13:50   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve_G
oh and i was already known before i was in beta crew, i was know before i was in beta tests (otherwise i wouldnt have gotten in obviously)
Who are you? Seriously. I've never heard of you.
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 13:52   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Galaxian
Who are you? Seriously. I've never heard of you.
im glad for you

maybe i shoulda mentioned known to anyone whos worth being known too, that woulda made more sense

go home
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 13:58   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve_G
im glad for you

maybe i shoulda mentioned known to anyone whos worth being known too, that woulda made more sense

go home
Aaaawww, poor little stevie-weevie. Sorry I'm just one of the masses not fortunate enough or important enough or l33t enough to know such a huge celebrity as you.
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 14:07   #31
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Originally posted by Galaxian
Aaaawww, poor little stevie-weevie. Sorry I'm just one of the masses not fortunate enough or important enough or l33t enough to know such a huge celebrity as you.
you are forgiven, bow down and tremble in my presence
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 14:11   #32
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you are forgiven, bow down and tremble in my presence
/me does some serious trembling....
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 16:05   #33
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Last beta was ok, but it's such a shame all big changes happens so late.

Like almost every zik ship and quite a few xan ships where changed the day before gamestart or something. It was absolute chaos and we had no chance getting it tested properly.

Still, the r8 stats wasn't all that bad. OB def and the exile cost was 2 things that I could have been without, and the xan stats ended up a bit too powerful.

Personally I think shipstats and such are overrated. They've been semi balanced since R5. It's the shrinking playerbase that's been the problem.
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 16:23   #34
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Personally I think shipstats and such are overrated.
You have a legitimate point with the shrinking playerbase but I can't agree with you on the stats. No-one who played R8 would dispute Sentinals need a SERIOUS nerfing...
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 16:25   #35
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Steve who ?

Wasn't he the guy who was in Phantom of the Opera in 1989 ?

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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 17:30   #36
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To note I have no idea how Petru feels about this, so don't take this post as his thoughts or feelings. Im merely showing a different viewpoint to this rather than jumping up and down with a 'hoorah'

Petru indeed did good, but the thing is. After all the slapdowns he has taken in regards to not being listened to, and frustration and such over the last few beta testings, what makes you think he will want to do it again?

For Petru to set up something professional in testing - it would take a considerable amount of his time (more than a normal tester would be required to do) plus he would have to be the main 'voice' of the testers community.

So firstly - the creators (I use that term loosely now there are 2 additional coders - no offense intended towards Spinner or Fudge) have to give a clear list of objectives, they have to work with a lead tester to give him (or her) what they need.

Can the creator's make assurances over this?

And while I mentioned this would take considerable amount of time for whoever is the lead tester - is payment an option?

If not, then what are the perks? Surely not being listened to and having things suddenly implemented without your consultation is not one of the perks.

If I was Petru, I wouldn't want to do this job without some assurances on my position and authority in the matter. And yeah..Ive just lost my track of thought...
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 18:18   #37
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And yeah..Ive just lost my track of thought...
I understood (even if you didn't ) and agree completely
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 21:26   #38
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Steve who ?

Wasn't he the guy who was in Phantom of the Opera in 1989 ?

:xmas:
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 23:11   #39
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About the last beta's (which i was part off):

Creators were mostly busy with other stuff and some suggestions / changes couldnt be done due to lack of time, but now that Jolt is taking care of servers and all that stuff, Spinner and Crew can almost completely participate in the beta's, like direct coding which leads to more efficient testing of new features and stats etc. And for the part they werent listening to us (beta players) wont happen this time if u ask me since they will have more time for beta's

Powerplay is never encouraged in beta's, if done ur planet would get closed..but did they? Yes a few times but not everyone who did, also to the fact due to lack of time, they cant be taking care of closing beta planets beside their other stuff. And again now that they have more time also this can be done with more succes.

About Petru, he did great job so far and would be nice to see him taking the lead again but this time with backup from creators
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Unread 23 Dec 2002, 23:36   #40
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seems that the real part, and whats been missing perhaps, is lack of communication and interaction between PA crew and Beta crew.

From what i get, its always been like this. PA crew send a list of what they need or think and Beta sorts it, and then PA crew has final opinion.

However i guess im not alone when i say that this cooperation would be in-fact a cooperation. A dinamic exchange of ideas and views, of gaming development and most essencially, a two-ways relationship. Not ones doing wat the others need.

PA crew needs the pa community input to deliver better features on the game, and that might be faulting.

If petru or someone else was up to, even though i alone cant do much, id like to know and help however i can, as much as others would...

r72dk
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Unread 24 Dec 2002, 00:16   #41
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There has never been a problem with lack of suggestions and ideas in the bestas I have been in.

The problem has been more a lack of a clear timetable, organization and development reports.

There was some logging, but not nearly enuff. And I cant remember us having many scheduled meetings where we discussed the issues. It was all on-the-fly type with the ppl active at any given moment.
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Unread 24 Dec 2002, 02:47   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by r72dk
even though i alone cant do much, id like to know and help however i can, as much as others would...

r72dk
Invite this guy to be a tester, people that can post and make their views clear are important.
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Unread 24 Dec 2002, 03:03   #43
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Originally posted by Chax
Invite this guy to be a tester, people that can post and make their views clear are important.

ive already had a long discussion with him earlier today heh

he seems to be tester material for sure
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Unread 24 Dec 2002, 03:59   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zh|l
To note I have no idea how Petru feels about this, so don't take this post as his thoughts or feelings. Im merely showing a different viewpoint to this rather than jumping up and down with a 'hoorah'

Petru indeed did good, but the thing is. After all the slapdowns he has taken in regards to not being listened to, and frustration and such over the last few beta testings, what makes you think he will want to do it again?

For Petru to set up something professional in testing - it would take a considerable amount of his time (more than a normal tester would be required to do) plus he would have to be the main 'voice' of the testers community.

So firstly - the creators (I use that term loosely now there are 2 additional coders - no offense intended towards Spinner or Fudge) have to give a clear list of objectives, they have to work with a lead tester to give him (or her) what they need.

Can the creator's make assurances over this?

And while I mentioned this would take considerable amount of time for whoever is the lead tester - is payment an option?

If not, then what are the perks? Surely not being listened to and having things suddenly implemented without your consultation is not one of the perks.

If I was Petru, I wouldn't want to do this job without some assurances on my position and authority in the matter. And yeah..Ive just lost my track of thought...
For a 2nd time in 24 hours Zhil and I are in complete agreement - this is getting fairly surreal quickly. I only participated in the round 5 beta, which obviously is a while ago. Though from what I hear I guess one of the main problems have always been for features and tweaks being implemented *after* the beta. I do believe that is a slightly odd thing to do. Surely you would want to start with a 'rough' stat set / feature set, and then work your way through smaller and smaller tweaks towards a 'final' version, and then stick to it. It would be beneficial (I think) if the creators would give the beta test team assurances that what comes out of the beta test actually stays.
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Unread 24 Dec 2002, 09:43   #45
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soz

i was a tester in r7, last rnd i was utterly forgotten.

sincerely hope i can bb 4 next betas :/

cuz i got wievs on things too.. :P
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Unread 24 Dec 2002, 11:25   #46
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It gives me a fuzzy warm feeling to see that people think I did something decent Seriously though, thanks, good to know I wasn't screwing up all along.

Beta being the topic, the first thing on my mind is I'm not expecting to be re-offered/retain the position. As a person not afraid to say what's on my mind I think the general consensus is that the Team would rather have shot of me as a boat-rocker, but - time will prevail.

As to the past betas, those I had say over. I'm sure Steve/Cochese etc can agree with me when I say beta's are always a fine balancing act. Balancing what you can do with a decent idea with what you can't do due to it requiring coding, balancing what decisions you can make with whether a creator will agree with it or whether anyone will be able to implement it in the next 5 days and so on, you get the idea.

Round 8 beta wasn't the best in history, and I am actually as much to blame for it as anyone else. Not being around for key meetings (ie the last minute Zikonian changes) and not speaking up clearly enough on other things (ie Exile costs).

If after all my rocking of the boat I was to be asked to run the beta again it would indeed, as Zhil said be on the guarantee of solid changes and on a set of solid terms. During round 6, with the initial race designs (involving Coffee, Rha, Jester, Theamion, a bumpy but great team) once we handed over the initial sets, Spinner and myself spent often more than 24 hours at a time working to get everything finished and in place. Including me having to write things like in-game (Production screen) texts, tech tree information and so on.

This was a very difficult time, a time I think my girlfriend would rather have we spent together rather than me devoting 24/7 to a game from which I would earn nothing tangible (ie, a wage), but I was willing to do it. I did actually receive a hand delivered thank you gift from our Norwegian friends, and the thought behind that was immense, but that was a long time ago, and especially now when I'm needing to work more and more to generate income (bills to pay etc), that would be an impossible amount of time to give without some form of compensation.

Going on to round 7 and later round 8, our same Development Team (now including Cochese if my memory isn't falling apart) were pondering all kinds of ideas and pressing for them to go in, we really wanted to revitalise PA and were willing to put the time in. But by then, poor Fifth Season were about as demoralised as men could be, and by the time the news of Round 8 being the last was delivered, even our own enthusiasm was gone.

So, now here we are with new owners, owners with money and the old "Fifth Season" team free of all the tosh that is management, finances and so on. A beta or more is more than likely, a brief one for round 9 and a long ongoing beta for round 10.

Now that Spinner is free of daily management trawls, he is free to do what he loves most, game design, development, testing and so on. Half of the "feature" of my beta team was creative input and actual game design, thinking up lots of features that could be put into the game with no coding required. With Spinner and co now free for design, our usefulness (in my opinion) is less now. No beta information has yet been publically decided, but common sense dictates it would be silly to maintain a team of "player designers" when actual Creator designers are being paid for that job now, wouldn't it?

I've completely lost my train of thought for this post, my mind is hopping all over the place and trying to listen to a TV program at the same time.

Basically, the betas of the future I think are going to be very different from the ones I ran. Creators will be (hopefully to some extents) in control (and hopefully online more than 1 hour per day too), rules will be enforced (oh I do hope so) and as a professional firm there will be no more bollocks going on. Where does that leave room for a player run team? Not much I feel.

We just have to sit and wait and see what happens and where. Will I be offered an admin job for round 9? I don't expect so, but will the next betas be hugely different from the past ones? I do hope so.
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Unread 24 Dec 2002, 17:50   #47
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Thumbs up Re: PA Team, REAL BETA TEST team and REAL community participation. Maybe its about time?

Quote:
Originally posted by r72dk
I guess its self explanatory.

For years, this game was run by PA team solo ideas, PA community having litlle voice or vote amongst the changes on the game itself. I know that there was a Beta Team before and prolyl still exists, but as well i know that, i know that their opinions are seldom heard and understood, thus reaching no safe port.

Maybe the best change in this last roudns was the introducing the new ship stats and races, and afaik was designed by players. PA team developed some preliminary stats for several races which i had access and tbh wouldnt have brought anythg new, much less given that there was no clear advantages between races. This is just a statement of the best evolution PA has had lately and of PA community value.

So i ask, and ask for PA team understandment and humility, to create a DECENT and REAL beta test team. And who´s better to hear than us the players who so much complain? There are those who complain without a reason, there are those that dont care but there are a LOT that even without playing for months still care, still thrive to look ways to help, still keep posting v good suggestions, reckon understandment for your position as businessmans, and why we do keep on i have no idea, maybe we just dont stand to see a game that IT HAS BEEN part of our life for so long, just go down due to stubborness of a few.

This is the same PA team that has been with us for so long, and cant say it aint an advantage for PA cause, at least we´re all familiar to each others. Now it just takes a bit of willingness to make things better, and as it was posted endless times before, there ARE ppl who are willing to do hard-work for free, all it takes its PA team reckoning on community abilities and suggestions.

r72dk
The HC and of every 1st and 2nd tier alliance and representitives of the Core should've been invited to a council since the end of r2.

Sadly its who you know and not what you know that currently get you into this team!
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Unread 24 Dec 2002, 18:23   #48
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Re: Re: PA Team, REAL BETA TEST team and REAL community participation. Maybe its about time?

Quote:
Originally posted by -o|DarkJedi|o-
The HC and of every 1st and 2nd tier alliance and representitives of the Core should've been invited to a council since the end of r2.

Sadly its who you know and not what you know that currently get you into this team!
Maybe if you are willing to try somethg, its now a very good time to start it. I dont know anyone that could get me into Beta, never did and never bothered, however it doesnt move me aside from keep trying to have what i can possibly do to help.
If you feel the same and through some talks with the concerned ppl somethg could be arranged and done for PA good sake.
Im doing my share

r72dk
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Unread 24 Dec 2002, 20:09   #49
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if you're testing a game that's for all the players, you should have a sample of all the players. ask people to rate their skill, tell their playing style etc, and choose a stratified sample from that. that way, you get a truly representative sample, and therefore one with more credibility.
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Unread 24 Dec 2002, 20:50   #50
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"Are you:"
A. a **** player
B. a bad player
C. an average player
D. a good player
E. a ****ing excellent player

I wonder which ones people won't own up to...
Besides that, there is very little skill involved in playing PA, so its debatable if there can even exist any real bad players in the current playerbase, which comes back to the issue of making the game "noob"-friendly.
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