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Unread 1 Mar 2007, 21:44   #1
demonicus
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Maybe the roids shouldn't be "teleported" to your planet like it's done now, but instead, you could start mining the roids you captured AFTER your attack fleet gets back home. And also AFTER your attack fleet is back home with the new shiny roids, THEN they could be stolen again.
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Unread 1 Mar 2007, 22:09   #2
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

there cannot be any fair system without a secondary tick for roid movements.
ie all planets have their combats calculated and worked out what roids they get during the first tick, then all the appropriate movements are done in the second tick

It'll increase the tick time (obviously) but its not something that can be easily done during the existing cycle
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Unread 1 Mar 2007, 22:32   #3
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonicus
Maybe the roids shouldn't be "teleported" to your planet like it's done now, but instead, you could start mining the roids you captured AFTER your attack fleet gets back home. And also AFTER your attack fleet is back home with the new shiny roids, THEN they could be stolen again.
like in r3?
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Unread 2 Mar 2007, 00:04   #4
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Personally i don't like this idea that the roids get teleported back to home base.

If "they" figured out to do that, they should be able to do the same with their ships. So either give us a "mother ship" that can teleport our fleets home, or make roids travel back to the planet with the pods.
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Unread 2 Mar 2007, 09:32   #5
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
there cannot be any fair system without a secondary tick for roid movements.
ie all planets have their combats calculated and worked out what roids they get during the first tick, then all the appropriate movements are done in the second tick

It'll increase the tick time (obviously) but its not something that can be easily done during the existing cycle
I have a reasonably fair system, without a second tick. My idea was to go thru the planet by score ascending. This was small planets lose first, THEN capture, and large planets first capture, then lose.

Effectively, small planets get the advantage, until they start to rise in rank. The higher they go, the less advantage.
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Unread 2 Mar 2007, 11:06   #6
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Planet A is 1 score above planet B. Planet A lands, gains 2 score. Planet B is skipped and Planet A is ticked twice?

I'm not sure how to put it into words but I don't think it would work.
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Unread 2 Mar 2007, 11:41   #7
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

If there is a system which prioritises any planet over any other for whatever reason, then it is not 'fair' by any stretch of the imagination.
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Unread 2 Mar 2007, 12:16   #8
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
Planet A is 1 score above planet B. Planet A lands, gains 2 score. Planet B is skipped and Planet A is ticked twice?

I'm not sure how to put it into words but I don't think it would work.

new score is set after all combat...
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Unread 2 Mar 2007, 13:28   #9
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
I have a reasonably fair system, without a second tick. My idea was to go thru the planet by score ascending. This was small planets lose first, THEN capture, and large planets first capture, then lose.

Effectively, small planets get the advantage, until they start to rise in rank. The higher they go, the less advantage.
Any system with a unfair benefit based on how shitty or good your planet may be is flawed. Do ppl need to be punished for doing well? I do not think so (hell i'm being punished enough by all those XP whores attacking me with the value i have). The only fair way to do it is as Phil put it, by not distributing roids to new owners untill after all battles have been fougt.
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Unread 2 Mar 2007, 13:43   #10
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
new score is set after all combat...
Surely that counts as a second tick?
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Unread 2 Mar 2007, 18:07   #11
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Why not simply distribute roids AFTER all combat has taken place.
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Unread 2 Mar 2007, 18:55   #12
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

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Originally Posted by Cochese
Why not simply distribute roids AFTER all combat has taken place.
Still doesn't solve the problem.
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Unread 2 Mar 2007, 21:25   #13
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

there is no fair system... someone has to get the "shaft" so to speak somewhere, while you may make a case against the larger planets or the planets that do well to get the shaft, its the most fair way to do it, besides in the end we all want a better game with better targets and more ships to steal or kill (sorry cath freezing scares no one) then let the smaller planets get advantage so they grow into nice targets for you.

Current system is fine, run simulations of it in every hypothetical situation you can think of and examine the code and remove bugs, or do a priority system based on a factor that gives the little guys a chance
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Unread 2 Mar 2007, 21:40   #14
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonicus
Still doesn't solve the problem.

I don't see how it doesn't solve the problem...

If the tick happens regardless of user ID, both planets should be "ticked" simultaneously, and roidlosses should be calculated from existing roidcount--not roidcount "after" combat occurs for one planet or the other.
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Unread 2 Mar 2007, 23:43   #15
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
Surely that counts as a second tick?
Post-tick Processing is a better way to say it, a second tick suggests... well... a tick

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazypyro
there is no fair system...
Post-tick distribution of roids is the fairest in that sense that no-one will get a benefit because of the state or technical details of their planet. But my solution will slightly improve small planets' chances to grow a bit, thus making the score gap just that tiny bit less huge. And its MUCH simpler to code anyway.

And lets face it, Wandows, in reral life this also happens: rich ppl get robbed more then poor ppl. Rich ppl think the theft of $ 100 to be a nuisance, while the piss-poor thief will live a month on it.....
Maybe it isnt FAIR< but it sure is REALISTIC
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 00:13   #16
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

How on earth can you call a space game realistic. You can't compare this with real life, this is a fake/simulated world with fixed borders and boundries. You can't honestly believe it is in the best interest of the game to have a fixed and known flaw like this implemented. Small planets already have a bonus off getting more XP, why increase their possible roid gains?

Not to mention, since you brought up the term realistic, it is a space game. Clusters and different planets should be wide apart and in this game ALL battles happen at the same time after which roids should be transported to the planet (check the eta indicator if you wish, according to that feature we all arrive at the exact same time).

There is absolutely no reason what so ever to deliberatly code in unfair features. I know this is only a minor thing, so in a way i don't really care about it either way, but on the grand scale, if you think it is fair to benefit smaller players here, where does it end? Why bother actually trying to do well if it only means you get more attention from the smaller planets because they would benefit more from hitting you. Flaws shouldn't be knowingly implemented.
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Unread 6 Mar 2007, 04:07   #17
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra
Example Of Stupid Combat Engine Behaviour Since R12
Quote:
If this is true, there is a bug. Please supply actual battle reports where this happens.
It's actually pretty shocking that you are only becoming aware of this issue now given the "bug" has been in the combat engine since I returned to PA 9 rounds ago.

Seriously.

edit p.s. I really like how "the final word" in roiding has been written by someone who obviously only has a theoretical half-notion of how the combat engine should work as opposed to by someone with a functional knowledge of how it actually works. Genius.

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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 06:56   #18
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

From my point of view, as a beginner, this forum is good and served its purpose. And compared from other rounds, as i've read, every round should be a bit different from the other one. Change of strategies, and battle calculations.

I think that it's what makes the game interesting, challenging and not one mastered by those who've played the game a lot of rounds.

--------------------------------------

R20 Beginner

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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 11:48   #19
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Maybe your planets shouldnt get the roids until the fleet has returned?
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 15:27   #20
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
Maybe your planets shouldnt get the roids until the fleet has returned?
Thats the way it used to be from r1-11 (or thereabouts). Made it more fair imo.
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Unread 12 Mar 2007, 22:59   #21
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RexDrax

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
Originally Posted by Veil05
Maybe your planets shouldnt get the roids until the fleet has returned?
Thats the way it used to be from r1-11 (or thereabouts). Made it more fair imo.
Are you sure? I seem to remember otherwise for r3 - r11 :P
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Unread 12 Mar 2007, 23:04   #22
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
How on earth can you call a space game realistic. You can't compare this with real life, this is a fake/simulated world with fixed borders and boundries. You can't honestly believe it is in the best interest of the game to have a fixed and known flaw like this implemented. Small planets already have a bonus off getting more XP, why increase their possible roid gains?

Not to mention, since you brought up the term realistic, it is a space game. Clusters and different planets should be wide apart and in this game ALL battles happen at the same time after which roids should be transported to the planet (check the eta indicator if you wish, according to that feature we all arrive at the exact same time).

There is absolutely no reason what so ever to deliberatly code in unfair features. I know this is only a minor thing, so in a way i don't really care about it either way, but on the grand scale, if you think it is fair to benefit smaller players here, where does it end? Why bother actually trying to do well if it only means you get more attention from the smaller planets because they would benefit more from hitting you. Flaws shouldn't be knowingly implemented.
Next time, use 1/10th of the words, i knew what you meant after the first sentence

Let me rephrase it: if recoding it toally to distribute stolen roids after all battles is too hard or makes the tick too long, or whatever, then the fairest would be a score or value based thing, NOT something based on when you had the time to signup, or that you KNEW the system worked like this. In that sense, using a value/score based system (or any other number thats not dependant on none game related order) is better.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 13:59   #23
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowmando
Yes this happens, it works around if you have enough pods in the fleet to cap your share. So long as between the attackers there are enough pods firing to max cap, the roids get shared out as Remy said, even if only one of the attackers pods actually fired.
this is the stupidest way of coding combat I have ever seen. Do you realize how bad this fks someone over? Say I send BS and I have 4 fi piggy fleets landing same tick. The target planet gets defense against the fi fleets and freezes/kills all of the fi. My BS ships are unaffected. Yet I will still have to split all my roids capped by MY pods with the killed attacks? wtf? How could anyone think this is a good idea?
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 01:02   #24
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Apologies for bump, but I think I have a relevant suggestion. Why not include, as part of the tick, a random number generator that issues each planet (or user-id - however it's coded) with a tick priority number for that tick only? Then tick them in that order.

It's not as good as only getting the roids when you get home but a lot easier to code. Most importantly it's fair.
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Unread 13 Apr 2007, 11:23   #25
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
edit p.s. I really like how "the final word" in roiding has been written by someone who obviously only has a theoretical half-notion of how the combat engine should work as opposed to by someone with a functional knowledge of how it actually works. Genius.
Actually, i have the code for the ticker on my PC and know how it works :-). Before you place a stupid comment, make sure you are right
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Unread 13 Apr 2007, 11:23   #26
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

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Originally Posted by Achilles
Apologies for bump, but I think I have a relevant suggestion. Why not include, as part of the tick, a random number generator that issues each planet (or user-id - however it's coded) with a tick priority number for that tick only? Then tick them in that order.

It's not as good as only getting the roids when you get home but a lot easier to code. Most importantly it's fair.
Its not fair, only post-tick processing/distribution is.
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Unread 13 Apr 2007, 14:59   #27
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Re: The final word on how roiding works (!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
Actually, i have the code for the ticker on my PC and know how it works :-). Before you place a stupid comment, make sure you are right
I stand by what I said. If you had any notion of how the ticker worked you would have fixed it for the round ahead. Instead it's just the reverse of previous rounds. Why would you even bother with such a trivial change if you had any notion how to fix the underlying problem?

Also, if you have such a great understanding of how "it" works perhaps you can explain to us how you didn't know about the bug posted by zebra which has been present since the start of new PA? And why haven't you fixed it?

Quote:
Its not fair, only post-tick processing/distribution is.
Two points. Firstly, could you explain why my suggestion wasn't fair? It meant that planets would tick at a random place and so no-one could gain an advantage based on signing up first/last/during a fullmoon.

Secondly, if what you suggest is the fairest way and best way to do thing why hasn't it been done? Because you haven't a clue what you're doing maybe?
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Unread 15 Apr 2007, 10:51   #28
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Reforming Roid Distributions

Presently, all combat in planetarion is based on the relative User-ID of the attacker and defenders, a result of which is unusual roid distributions.

This thread is designed to house and continue the debate that was held in Helpdesk - hopefully, it will attain the attention that it deserves here instead.

Thankyou.
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Unread 15 Apr 2007, 11:36   #29
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

I doubt post-tick processing of roid caps would have a huge impact on the ticker, and it's easily doable, too, imo. So what's a good reason to not do it that way?
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Unread 15 Apr 2007, 12:02   #30
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

I still think roids should just travel home with the ships. "Oh we can send asteroids through this wierd tunnel thing, but not ships".
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Unread 15 Apr 2007, 12:08   #31
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

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Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
I still think roids should just travel home with the ships. "Oh we can send asteroids through this wierd tunnel thing, but not ships".
In the past, it was explained away because you lost pods that capped roids.

However, roids that return with fleets would either miss out on x ticks of resources because they are away, or get a lump sum of the roids's resources from the journey when the fleet returns, or some other process. also, would mining bonuses apply to roids in transit? etc
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Unread 15 Apr 2007, 12:33   #32
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

I personally prefer the idea that you own roids as soon as you capture them. Screw the storyline.
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Unread 16 Apr 2007, 06:43   #33
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

I think that neither planet A or B should have the roids added to their count directly after combat.

What should happen is this:

Planet A attacks Planet B
Planet B has 1000 roids, Planet A caps his 25% meaning he caps 250 roids
Leaving Planet B with 750 roids, the 250 roids get deducted instantly as with the current system.
But Planet A doesnt get the 250 roids added to his roid count yet, The roids sort of sit in 'limbo'.
Then on the tick that Planet A's fleet returns home,the roids are then added to his count.

Really this is just a simple way of saying that the roids travel with the attack fleet, but it sounds to me like it works, i dont see how it wouldnt, buti dont know a heap about the game engine and its mechanics.

So what do you guys think of that? am i on the right line of thought at all?
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Unread 16 Apr 2007, 08:26   #34
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

Not in my eyes, Dorraj. I'd prefer to have instant-capture and simply set up a variable in the database holding the number of roids that a planet had at the end of a tick. Then run the combat ticker* and deduct roids from all of the planets roided. Then finally add the roids captured to the relevant planets.



Avoids all user id problems.



* I doubt I'm describing the actual process used nowadays right, but hopefully someone will catch my drift
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 02:40   #35
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Not in my eyes, Dorraj. I'd prefer to have instant-capture and simply set up a variable in the database holding the number of roids that a planet had at the end of a tick. Then run the combat ticker* and deduct roids from all of the planets roided. Then finally add the roids captured to the relevant planets.



Avoids all user id problems.



* I doubt I'm describing the actual process used nowadays right, but hopefully someone will catch my drift
i dont quite understand what you mean, if you could explain it a bit simpler would be good

yes i am a dumbass

lol
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 11:30   #36
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorraj
i dont quite understand what you mean, if you could explain it a bit simpler would be good

yes i am a dumbass

lol
As a step-by-step process for combat occurring on tick 1000:


1) End of tick 999.

2) DB logs size, score and value of all planets at end of the end of tick 999.

3) Combat occurs normally, but uses as values for size, score, value, etc, the logged ones as opposed to the 'current' ones as affected by the user id process.

4) Each planet is then assigned its new size, score and value according to the effect of combat happening on tick 1000. If they both attacked and were attacked, the roids they captured (variable A) were added to their tick 999 size, and the roids they lost (variable B) were deducted from their tick 999 size (variable C), to create a new size for the beginning of tick 1000 (variable D).


So you'd have a final size calculation of D = C + A - B
(New size = old size + roids captured - roids lost)




Does that make any sense?
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 11:33   #37
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

Plenty. I agree. Although if roids were to travel home with the fleet (and could not begin mining them until the fleet's return) that would be good as well.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 12:20   #38
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
Plenty. I agree. Although if roids were to travel home with the fleet (and could not begin mining them until the fleet's return) that would be good as well.
What benefit would that bring?
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 12:37   #39
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

Realism.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 13:07   #40
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
Realism.
On the other hand, you automatically give races that use low ETA roiding fleets an advantage, since they'll get their captured roids back to base quicker and get extra ticks mining from them.


Seriously, we've managed for more than twenty rounds with it like this. It's a better way of doing things from a gameplay point of view. I don't care about the storyline, not when there's a perfectly good reason for the roids returning home instantly - astropod technology that enables the roids to be sent straight to base via subspace or whatever. This uses improved technology so that pods don't die in the process anymore.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 03:06   #41
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
As a step-by-step process for combat occurring on tick 1000:


1) End of tick 999.

2) DB logs size, score and value of all planets at end of the end of tick 999.

3) Combat occurs normally, but uses as values for size, score, value, etc, the logged ones as opposed to the 'current' ones as affected by the user id process.

4) Each planet is then assigned its new size, score and value according to the effect of combat happening on tick 1000. If they both attacked and were attacked, the roids they captured (variable A) were added to their tick 999 size, and the roids they lost (variable B) were deducted from their tick 999 size (variable C), to create a new size for the beginning of tick 1000 (variable D).


So you'd have a final size calculation of D = C + A - B
(New size = old size + roids captured - roids lost)




Does that make any sense?

yup makes sense now

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
On the other hand, you automatically give races that use low ETA roiding fleets an advantage, since they'll get their captured roids back to base quicker and get extra ticks mining from them.
yeh thats right, stupid idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Seriously, we've managed for more than twenty rounds with it like this. It's a better way of doing things from a gameplay point of view. I don't care about the storyline, not when there's a perfectly good reason for the roids returning home instantly - astropod technology that enables the roids to be sent straight to base via subspace or whatever. This uses improved technology so that pods don't die in the process anymore.
Yeh storylines are gay, its worked like this since forever, why fix what isnt broken
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 03:19   #42
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

well, another factor with instant return of roids is that the tick after they become the base level, so if you are getting waved its not overly helpful.

ie, you're attacked and land in the same tick, eg 220. whatever mechanism you use to make that exchange "fair", with insta-retun roids, you now have the difference of your cap in tick 221. So if someone else lands on you in tick 221, you loose those roids as well.

If your roids return home with you, they wont be back for another 8 or whatever ticks, and thus un-roidable for that period. Also, with roids returning with fleet, you have the choiec of them 1) not producing any resources at all, and 2) producing resources and adding immediately to your stockpile at home ( instant return resources), or 3) the resources building up within the returning fleet, so you get a lump sum of cash when the fleet actually arrives.

I think the latter could be interesting.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 05:18   #43
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Re: Reforming Roid Distributions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
If your roids return home with you, they wont be back for another 8 or whatever ticks, and thus un-roidable for that period. Also, with roids returning with fleet, you have the choiec of them 1) not producing any resources at all, and 2) producing resources and adding immediately to your stockpile at home ( instant return resources), or 3) the resources building up within the returning fleet, so you get a lump sum of cash when the fleet actually arrives.

I think the latter could be interesting.
ilike teh idea of teh roids gaining resources within the fleet and getting a lump sum of cash

that would be pretty cool
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