Planetarion Forums

Snurx · 22 Mar 2004, 14:11

Or, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. He was the spiritual leader of Hamas, and was killed today in a airstrike done by the israellian army.

BBC CNN

Personally, I think this is one of the most stupid things Israel have done in years, or rather, if they were going to continue the peace process. But then again, I doubt that they want peace, at least as long as the madman Sharon is in charge.
But this will just incerease tensions even more, and result in the deaths of many more innocents on both sides. Go Sharon!

Dante Hicks · 22 Mar 2004, 14:16

Sharon is not particularly unique in Israel's history.

This type of incident is fairly in-line with policy generally over Israel's history.

Ste · 22 Mar 2004, 14:21

I saw this on the news this morning.
He was released from an Israeli prison not long ago because he was extremely ill. He was wheelchair-bound.
They've now made him a martyr.

It's almost as if Israel want a massive uprising - every time there's a relative calm they do something like this.
Now to await the massive retaliations.

edit

Quote:

UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said the killing of an elderly man in a wheelchair was "unjustified" and "very unlikely to achieve its objective".

France also condemned the assassination, and European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana said it was "very, very bad news" for the Middle East peace process.

Thats interesting - western politicians actually condemning it.

ChubbyChecker · 22 Mar 2004, 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ste

He was released from an Israeli prison not long ago because he was extremely ill. He was wheelchair-bound.

I think you might have heard wrong, cos this surely can't be true!

Ste · 22 Mar 2004, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

I think you might have heard wrong, cos this surely can't be true!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1695470.stm

Quote:

In 1989, Sheikh Yassin was arrested by the Israelis and sentenced to life imprisonment for ordering the killing of Palestinians who had allegedly collaborated with the Israeli army.

He was eventually released in 1997, in a trade-off with Jordan for two Israeli agents involved in an assassination attempt on a Hamas leader in Jordan.

Hmm... BBC news this morning said it ws because of his health.

ChubbyChecker · 22 Mar 2004, 15:07

Okay, so he was released 7 years ago. From what you were saying it seemed like they'd released him last week

Ste · 22 Mar 2004, 15:13

well... 7 years isn't that long ago someone that old...
But I see what you mean.

Apothos · 22 Mar 2004, 15:51

He looks/looked like Saruman.

Lupin · 22 Mar 2004, 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Sharon is not particularly unique in Israel's history.

This type of incident is fairly in-line with policy generally over Israel's history.

i agree generally, but what was about Perez (if the name is correct) he was the biggest hope of the nearer east conflict till he got assasinated back in '95 iirc, although i dont know which side killed him.

Vermillion · 22 Mar 2004, 16:22

Ok, I think it would be helpful to know a little bit about Hamas, and why this is such a big deal. To the rest of the world, hamas is a semi-political terrorist organisation, bent on the elimination of the state of Israel, and sponsor (directly or indirectly) of probably 2/3 of the suicide bombs and attacks against Israel. It has a 'political wing' (much like the IRA had Sinn Fein) but that has lost all credibility in the last 5-8 years.

That is the world view. To the people of Palestine this is an organisation which has fed, clothed, educated and sheltered them. In the 1960s and 1970s, the cornerstone of the Islamic movement's success was an impressive social, religious, educational and cultural infrastructure, called Da'wah, that worked to ease the hardship of large numbers of Palestinian refugees, confined to camps, and many who were living on the edge of poverty. Hamas grew directly from this movement, founded in 1987. Hamas was a direct evolution from the Muslim Brotherhood, which was founded in 1928. This is why they became popular, respected and even loved by the people.

Now in the last 10 years they have radicalised, the Hamas charter of 1998 reads like a war proclamation (and is pretty funny, singling out as enemies organisations like the Rotary club) but they still have the legacy of being the only organisation that really helped the palestinian refugees and people for decades. But the situation has also redicalised. In 1998, support for the organisations politics was at 14% in Palestine, in 2001 following the latest Intefada it was at 25%.

That is why Hamas is so dangerous, and why it will most certainly NOT collapse or fall apart because a leader, or a few leaders are killed. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin was the founder of Hamas, and as such a critical figurehead who spoke often about the organisation's more extreme policies (elimination of Israel, extermination of Zionism, etc).

But he was also a 70 year old man who was a quadriplegic and incapable of functioning without constant care. He and apparently an assortment of bodyguards and caregivers were killed by rocket fire on the steps of a mosque after finishing their prayers.

Israel may feel better knowing that this man with the powerful history and influential voice is dead, and perhaps from a strategic point of view it makes sense to eliminate such people who are a focus of radicalism.

But to the Arab works, Israel fired an barrage of fragmentation rockets at a wheelchair bound elderly cripple on the steps of a mosque, a cripple who represented an organisation that fed, housed, educated and clothed countless refugees and hopeless people. To them, his radical political views probably seem justified by this attack.

There are no easy answers in the Middle East. Killing this man will cause a wave of attacks for a couple weeks, probably 5 or 6 explosions, killing 2 dozen people or so. Israel will then continue retaliating, bulldozing homes and building its wall, more Palestinians will be kicked out of their homes, or cut off from their work, and become refugees in desperation turn to Hamas or similar organisations, and become the agents of 'revenge' for the next attack. (refugee camps provide an estimated 70% of candidates for suicide bombings) This killing is just a slightly higher visibility step in a seemingly endless cycle.

1-X · 22 Mar 2004, 16:27

while I believe israel needs more international pressure to behave nicely, I remember saying to a friend a couple of weeks ago, something like

Quote:

you've got to hand it to those israelis though, they don't take no crap from nobody.

Ste · 22 Mar 2004, 16:28

Vermillion - I totally agree with you.

The only problem is - How do you break this cycle?

It would need complete withdrawal by the Israelis to the UN agreed boundaries and stopping building that bloody wall.
Even then - would that stop Hamas et al attempting revenge?

The US intevening? would that work? would they even do it?

Sharon getting overthrown by the Israeli public? Most see him as too lenient anyway.

It's such a tough situation but this mornings events go no way towards bringing peace to anyone in the region.

Ste · 22 Mar 2004, 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1-X

while I believe israel needs more international pressure to behave nicely, I remember saying to a friend a couple of weeks ago, something like
Quote:
you've got to hand it to those israelis though, they don't take no crap from nobody.

They've got the US to back them up on any issue they want.
Oh and nuclear weapons...

Radical Edward · 22 Mar 2004, 17:00

It was a pretty impressive shot I though, how come they nearly always seem to do so well at killing specific people?

Nodrog · 22 Mar 2004, 18:26

in before the gross oversimplifications.

Flayer · 22 Mar 2004, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodrog

in before the gross oversimplifications.

too late

Vermillion · 22 Mar 2004, 19:32

Having written a long post in this thread recently about the error of killing this man, I will now play the devil’s advocate, and point out the other side:

What the Hell is Israel supposed to do? They are between the proverbial rock and a hard place, dealing with an existence in a land that hates them, yet committed to the protection of the Jewish people and the Jewish state. Committed even more than other nations are committed to protecting their own, because of the origins of the state, a nation to protect its people when the rest of the world failed so miserably to protect them from 1935-45.

Israel has been involved in three wars, all of which either caused or provoked by its neighbours. It was attacked by Hussein in 1991 in a ploy to reactivate these old hatreds. National newspapers of internationally recognised states (such as Saudi Arabia) still spread the centuries old lie about Jewish boys grinding babies into their bread, or killing virgins in the dark for sacrifices. As someone who has been to Saudi, the borderline insane tall tales which make it to the front pages are so absurd as to be laughable, yet it is standard fare for Saudi, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Kuwait, Lebanon, even Egypt, though not as publicly.

These states either deny the holocaust ever happened, or praise it as being a step in the right direction. Unless you have been there, you cannot imagine the culture of hate and propaganda surrounding Israel, seriously worse than a black man at a KKK rally.

So what is Israel to do in the face of this? Arm, defend and protect. Hey make sure they cannot be pushed around or defeated by force of arms, and they take what steps they can to defend themselves. Now, the negotiations with Palestine have not ever gone well, both sides backed down from earlier positions, and Israel has been criticised (probably rightly so) for stepping back from earlier agreements and commitments, and for not offering enough at the bargaining table. But at LEAST Israel is prepared to negotiate at all.

What is the position of Hamas, and in particular, Sheik Ahmed Yassin? Do they want right of return, or an end to the creation of settlements?

No, Hamas is committed to the complete annihilation of the Israeli state. They claim ALL of Israel as their land, and Yassin has been quoted as saying things such as that he would agree to the creation of a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank, but only as a temporary base from which to launch attacks against Israel.

Yassin is not someone you can negotiate with. At least the IRA, the ETA and the Chechnians have pseudo-reasonable political goals. Even Al Quaida said it wants US troops out of the Middle East, which while not very realistic, is at least possible. The political goal of Hamas is to drive the Israeli people into the sea, how does one ‘compromise’ with that? Let me be clear: If every single one of the Oslo accords were actually met and agreed to by Israel, Hamas would not stop bombing.

Killing these people is not a great solution, but what other solution presents itself? By taking such a strong stand, even against an old man, Israel is stating that it refuses to be intimidated, and that it is here to stay. Hamas might do well to pay attention.

Vaio · 22 Mar 2004, 19:40

One less potential asylum seeker in the UK. Damn good shooting

Vaio

evil one · 22 Mar 2004, 20:17

Suicide bomber kills Israelis

Israel retaliates by killing some palestines and destroying some homes.

Suicide bomber kills Israelis

Israel retaliates by killing some palestines and destroying some homes.

Suicide bomber kills Israelis

Israel retaliates by killing some palestines and destroying some homes.

Suicide bomber kills Israelis

Israel retaliates by killing some palestines and destroying some homes.

It's getting boring. Can we change the channel somehow?

LHC · 22 Mar 2004, 20:31

Where is Zar

Scorpio · 22 Mar 2004, 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lupin

i agree generally, but what was about Perez (if the name is correct) he was the biggest hope of the nearer east conflict till he got assasinated back in '95 iirc, although i dont know which side killed him.

If im not mistake he was killed by a jewish extremist.
Gosh, actually makes you think they don't even want peace

Zar · 22 Mar 2004, 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHC

Where is Zar

i'm here

As for the killing, i can only say like ive always said - this is exactly why i don't like Israel and its policies.

The government is full of war hungry, blood thirsty, right wing, conservative, fundamentalist, nutcase, Zionists.

Put those all together and you have a government that could put certain past "regimes" to shame.

Pretty much the same reason i hate the American government

KoeN · 22 Mar 2004, 23:11

victor charly charly!
target rolling to his house, where are the apaches , over?

alpha foxtrot
shalom victor, here is everything ok. ready for action, over.

victor charly alpha zebra
understood. now fire at will! go apaches go! bombs away!

you can't hit the nerd with the glasses but it's ok to nuke disabled 65+ people?

cool

Marilyn Manson · 23 Mar 2004, 00:26

Shimon Perez is still alive, you goits. It was Yitzhak Rabin who was assinated in '95 by a Jewish extremist whilst he was PM. (I presume this is who you are refering to.)

Sandsnake · 23 Mar 2004, 00:29

Vermillion summed it up best....as usual.

CrashTester · 23 Mar 2004, 00:39

ding dong the wicked Sheikh is dead.

Intrepid00 · 23 Mar 2004, 00:57

I'm I the only one that thinks a lot of the problems in palensite would go away if they had some decent aid at first and ulitimaly overall jobs.

CrashTester · 23 Mar 2004, 01:04

what like blow them all up so they can have some first said and jobs clearing away the bodies? good idea

JonnyBGood · 23 Mar 2004, 01:45

One less sand ****** am i rite?

JonnyBGood · 23 Mar 2004, 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

I'm I the only one that thinks a lot of the problems in palensite would go away if they had some decent aid at first and ulitimaly overall jobs.

Probably. You know anyone with fifty billion dollars and a really, really big heart?

Qdeathstar · 23 Mar 2004, 02:22

Im just going to say that i agree that it was the dumbest think... b/s wasnt Hamas (when it was founded) just a political organization, then it turned violent.. how is killing one of the founders going help????

Im dissapointed that the US didnt outright condemn the assassination.

Radical Edward · 23 Mar 2004, 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qdeathstar

Im dissapointed that the US didnt outright condemn the assassination.

Israel owns the US.

MrL_JaKiri · 23 Mar 2004, 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qdeathstar

Im just going to say that i agree that it was the dumbest think... b/s wasnt Hamas (when it was founded) just a political organization, then it turned violent.. how is killing one of the founders going help????

Im dissapointed that the US didnt outright condemn the assassination.

Listen to Vermillion.

ChubbyChecker · 23 Mar 2004, 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

I'm I the only one that thinks a lot of the problems in palensite would go away if they had some decent aid at first and ulitimaly overall jobs.

The EU gives them decent aid. They (we

) build schools in Gaza, hospitals, etc... etc...
Then one day the Israelis decide they like the Palestinians even less today than they did yesterday and go in and blow everything up.

I'm not sure if this was a bad move by the Israelis. Sure, you're going to have some pissed off Palestinians for a while but once they've forgotten about it this guy will still be dead.
I guess it really depends on how much of an "inspiration" he was to would-be suicide bombers.

Radical Edward · 23 Mar 2004, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Listen to Vermillion.

no, vermillion is wrong.

Scorpio · 23 Mar 2004, 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

Shimon Perez is still alive, you goits. It was Yitzhak Rabin who was assinated in '95 by a Jewish extremist whilst he was PM. (I presume this is who you are refering to.)

Hehe, yes. Correct

MrL_JaKiri · 23 Mar 2004, 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Your bview of the wars is slightly one sided and simplified and you don't seem to account for Israeli participation in the suez crisis, or the invasion of lebanon, both of which severely destabilized the region. (STUFF)

Why not read his first line? It's not like that's the way he actually thinks.

Hicks · 23 Mar 2004, 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qdeathstar

Im dissapointed that the US didnt outright condemn the assassination.

When have they ever done something like this ?

I bet the Israeli bus companies won't be doing a brisk trade this week :/

MrL_JaKiri · 23 Mar 2004, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

He was taking a position I was merely tackling that position. Being Devil's Advocate and then talking shite is not particularly clever.

You can argue with the position all you like, but it's the statements that involve you talking about him and his views ('Your bview of the wars is slightly one sided') when they're quite clearly not his views.

MrL_JaKiri · 23 Mar 2004, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

You are abosultely right. It should have read: this view of the wars is slightly one sided.

Score one for me.

SWISH!

MrL_JaKiri · 23 Mar 2004, 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

I hope it feels so good to be right. there's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomigs of others, is there?

Nope.

Qdeathstar · 23 Mar 2004, 14:19

i think that once we get more stabil influence in the middle east (ie Iraq and Afganistan) we will become less depended on Isreal for support in the middle east.

MrL_JaKiri · 23 Mar 2004, 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qdeathstar

i think that once we get more stabil influence in the middle east (ie Iraq and Afganistan) we will become less depended on Isreal for support in the middle east.

I don't think that's why the US support Israel.

Radical Edward · 23 Mar 2004, 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Yes those two countries are very stable.

wen their stabil & r @ peas

Lupin · 23 Mar 2004, 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

Shimon Perez is still alive, you goits. It was Yitzhak Rabin who was assinated in '95 by a Jewish extremist whilst he was PM. (I presume this is who you are refering to.)

yes indeed. i saw yesterday a documentation from oliver stone about middles east and saw Peres speaking which kind of confused me.

Radical Edward · 23 Mar 2004, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Yes that seems more and more likely every day.

they are bound to run out of people eventually.

JonnyBGood · 23 Mar 2004, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radical Edward

they are bound to run out of people eventually.

Like the chinese people who keep on marching into the sea in a line but never die because there are too many of them and they reproduce faster than they drown am i rite?

JonnyBGood · 23 Mar 2004, 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Well there are 25 million in iraq now lets say for the ease fo calculation that 3.65 million are anti American occupation. So at 1 a day it would take 10,000 years. if we say 100 a day that's only 100 years. Good plan.

Newsflash: It appears people in Iraq have discovered the fountain of youth and can live for 10,000 years. Apparently it's the radiation given off by the depleted uranium shells.

JonnyBGood · 23 Mar 2004, 15:48

Extra bulletin: Children are their parents in miniature with the exact same beliefs.

JonnyBGood · 23 Mar 2004, 15:52

I've actually got no idea what this argument was about. Reading up I don't think he was serious.