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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 16:02   #1
Kurashima
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Dutch Queen Mother Dead

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3552417.stm
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 16:03   #2
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

my condolences.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 16:11   #3
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin
my condolences.
But old - if you're gonna post news, make sure its breakin or somat
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 16:17   #4
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Leshy's dead?
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 16:19   #5
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Leshy's dead?
:giggle:
Nasty MrL
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 16:27   #6
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 16:28   #7
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Leshy's dead?
Hey. Best stop posting then!

At any rate, rest in piece Juliana. Although she was the Queen before I was born, she appeared to be well liked by the general population, and she reached a very respectable age, even if it's unlikely she knew that herself.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 16:29   #8
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

what's the governmental system in the netherlands? constitutional monarchy or whut?
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 16:39   #9
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Yup. Constitutional Monarchy.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 17:12   #10
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Exclamation Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
what's the governmental system in the netherlands? constitutional monarchy or whut?
Possibly the most uneccesary inquiry in the world, ever.

And will people stop using 'Constiutional Monarchy'. This term only has meaning within the context of the 19th century.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 17:13   #11
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Today, constitutional monarchy is almost always combined with representative democracy, and represents a compromise between theories of sovereignty which place sovereignty in the hands of the people, and those that see a role for tradition in the theory of government. Though the king or queen may be regarded as the government's symbolic head, it is the Prime Minister, whose power derives directly or indirectly from elections, who actually governs the country.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 17:31   #12
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Exclamation Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Constiutional Monarchy is totally meaningless on two levels, since essentially all it tells of us a political system is that said system has a monarch in it somewhere, and that monarch has some measure of limited power. This is true of pretty much all systems in the world today that have monarch in them them, including non-western ststates such as Bahrain. (The vast majority of Monarchies are Democracies anyway, and the vast majority of states as a whole aren't Monarchies.) Secondly, it tells us bugger-all with regards to the rest of the organisation of the system.

It's far more useful to talk about a Parliamentary/Presidential and Federal/Unitary system, as those four terms tell us about the key concepts on which a Democratic state is arranged pretty nicely. Nobody worth their salt gives a shit about whether a Parliamentary system has a Monarch or a President as HoS, since it is merely one part of the system, and a generally totally irrelevant one at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
and represents a compromise between theories of sovereignty which place sovereignty in the hands of the people, and those that see a role for tradition in the theory of government.
wtf. Again, this sort of definiton is only relevant in a 19th century context to distinguish limited monarchy (As under Louis-Phillipe in France, Britain in the early stages of that century, etc.) from Democracy on the one hand and Absolutism on the other. Today it is a redundant term.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 20 Mar 2004 at 17:37.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 18:17   #13
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

i noticed she was dead when i was coaching the girls (we won 0-5). 1 minute silence, i didn't know why....she died at 6, the match started at 13:15...(i woke up at 12 so didn't have time to see TV, i coulnd't know).

anyway, RIP.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 18:53   #14
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Nobody worth their salt gives a shit about whether a Parliamentary system has a Monarch or a President as HoS, since it is merely one part of the system, and a generally totally irrelevant one at that.
Be that as it may, the Netherlands is still a kingdom, and not a republic. Regardless of their limited influence (although over here the Crown does hold the power to prevent laws from being passed), ignoring the head of state in describing a governmental system is not particularly descriptive or accurate.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 19:05   #15
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Who?
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 19:54   #16
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Exclamation Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Be that as it may, the Netherlands is still a kingdom, and not a republic.
That's fairly irrelevant. Italy is a Republic, and it still has a largely comparable political system to The Netherlands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
ignoring the head of state in describing a governmental system is not particularly descriptive or accurate.
I'm not ignoring them; I'm merely saying that using their position as the sole basis for defining a political system in general terms is silly.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 22:32   #17
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
That's fairly irrelevant. Italy is a Republic, and it still has a largely comparable political system to The Netherlands.



I'm not ignoring them; I'm merely saying that using their position as the sole basis for defining a political system in general terms is silly.

italy doesn't have a king/queen so i don't see why you're comparing the netherlands to that country to prove your point.
of course it's relevant to say a country is a monarchy, as long as that monarchy has some kind of 'power'. and in this case, it has.

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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 22:46   #18
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
italy doesn't have a king/queen so i don't see why you're comparing the netherlands to that country to prove your point.
He's saying that in every way that matters, Italy and Holland are similar in the distribution of political power, and thus to refer to them as two completely seperate modes of governance is at best misleading.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 22:52   #19
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Still, we have the Republic of Italy, and the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

Monarchy, Republic, Democracy, Feudalism, Fundamentalism, Communism are all basic forms of government that can be implemented in a variety of ways. Complaining that two countries may fall in different categories, but have a fairly similar political system, or fall in the same category despite having wildly different systems, is fairly pointless.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 23:01   #20
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
He's saying that in every way that matters, Italy and Holland are similar in the distribution of political power, and thus to refer to them as two completely seperate modes of governance is at best misleading.

he's saying that 'contstitutional monarchy' isn't the right description for our political system. to prove his point he's comparing holland to italy, a country that isn't a monarchy in the first place.
and considering the queen does have some power here, the distribution of power can't be similar at all.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 23:16   #21
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Exclamation Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Still, we have the Republic of Italy, and the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
And? What have labels got to do with it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Monarchy, Republic, Democracy, Feudalism, Fundamentalism, Communism are all basic forms of government that can be implemented in a variety of ways.
Good god, don't use Civilization as your basis for analysing political systems or anything!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Complaining that two countries may fall in different categories, but have a fairly similar political system, or fall in the same category despite having wildly different systems, is fairly pointless.
I'm disputing the idea that contemporary systems with monarchies fall into any special category of their own simply as a result of having a monarchy. They patently don't, either on a general structural level or any other, come to that.
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Unread 20 Mar 2004, 23:29   #22
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Exclamation Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

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Originally Posted by KoeN
he's saying that 'contstitutional monarchy' isn't the right description for our political system. to prove his point he's comparing holland to italy, a country that isn't a monarchy in the first place.
and considering the queen does have some power here, the distribution of power can't be similar at all.
On all the basic structural levels, Italy is pretty similar to The Netherlands. Both are Parliamentary systems with a Unitary structure, although with a fair level of local governance , both are EU members, both have a two-chamber parliament, both operate some level of PR for national elections, both have a consensual coalition based approach to national governments, I could go on; this obviously leads to a comparable political culture as well.

I don't see why the tiny fact that they have differing methods with regard to choosing their Heads of State should mean they are somehow radically differing overall polities, and thus should be awarded a label that is apart from each other as a result.

Your argument seems to rest on the basis that Heads of State are deciders when judging the overall nature of a political system, and subsequent description we give them - considering that they are one of the least relevant institutions in a political system, this is a rather wild claim.

What, incidentally, would you label Italy as?

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 20 Mar 2004 at 23:34.
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Unread 21 Mar 2004, 00:15   #23
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
And? What have labels got to do with it?
You're the one criticizing labels for not appropriately covering a country's political system.
Quote:
Good god, don't use Civilization as your basis for analysing political systems or anything!
I wasn't going to, but then I was going and couldn't stop
Quote:
I'm disputing the idea that contemporary systems with monarchies fall into any special category of their own simply as a result of having a monarchy. They patently don't, either on a general structural level or any other, come to that.
Then how would you make the distinction between the Head of State and the Leader of Government? Under a republic, these would be the same people, whereas under a monarchy, they aren't.
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Unread 21 Mar 2004, 01:15   #24
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

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What, incidentally, would you label Italy as?

a republic.
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Unread 21 Mar 2004, 02:14   #25
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

by the way,

a queen mother is a person who has been married to a king and became part of the royal family that way. juliana was born as a princes, so she's not a queen mum but an ex-queen.
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Unread 21 Mar 2004, 17:54   #26
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Exclamation Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

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Originally Posted by Leshy
You're the one criticizing labels for not appropriately covering a country's political system.
Well, I was jsut pointing out that the 'titles' of states give us no indication whatsoever to their underlying politics. East Germany, for instace, was 'The German Demcoratic Republic'.

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I wasn't going to, but then I was going and couldn't stop


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Originally Posted by Leshy
Then how would you make the distinction between the Head of State and the Leader of Government? Under a republic, these would be the same people, whereas under a monarchy, they aren't.
The roles of Head of State and Head of Government are only combined in true Presidential systems; many Republics are Parliamentary systems, in which there is a seperation in the roles between a Prime Minister and a President. Italy has already been mentioned, Germmany, Czech Republic, Portugal, Greece, etc.

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Originally Posted by Koen
a republic.
BEST COMEBACK EVAR.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 21 Mar 2004 at 23:03.
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Unread 21 Mar 2004, 18:19   #27
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

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BEST COMEBACK EVAR.
Thanks for attributing it to me. You're a doll.
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Unread 21 Mar 2004, 23:03   #28
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Question Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Sorry about that.

Still, coffee and mutual masturbation tommorow at ten?
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Unread 21 Mar 2004, 23:38   #29
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
by the way,

a queen mother is a person who has been married to a king and became part of the royal family that way. juliana was born as a princes, so she's not a queen mum but an ex-queen.
umm...
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Unread 22 Mar 2004, 01:17   #30
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

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Still, coffee and mutual masturbation tommorow at ten?
You know I don't like coffee
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Originally Posted by Scorpio
umm...
I think he bears a scary resemblance to Albert Verlinde as well.
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Unread 22 Mar 2004, 10:07   #31
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Re: Dutch Queen Mother Dead

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I think he bears a scary resemblance to Albert Verlinde as well.

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