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Unread 21 Apr 2005, 18:19   #1
Monroe
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Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

This thread probably already exists somewhere, and surely has existed in the past in some form, but not seeing it atm, and seeing the results of this problem atm I will post on the subject.

First a brief note on history: In the 13 rounds I've been playing this game this game has changed in many ways. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. There have been many interesting experiments over the past 5 years, some like fleet strategies and holoroids clearly added more headaches then they solved (though I always liked holoroids). Some like races, covert ops, and bringing alliances into the game have been major improvements to the game. However none of these changes effect the issue at hand.

The issue at hand, aka 3 fleet slots, also has it's roots in history, and for those that read this and don't know the history let me explain, those that do, forgive me for regressing a bit. Now I don't know the logic for deciding on three fleet slots used back when the three stooges invented this game, but at the time three seemed to be a pretty good number. This is because it used to be that ships targeted multiple classes of ships, so therefore it was likely that in three fleet slots you could use all of your ships, either attacking or defending because multiple ships could target multiple ship classes. For whatever reasons (and if someone wants to post and explain them to me I'd be grateful) it was decided that targeting of multiple classes of ships was either too complicated for new players, or two hard to code or something. So targeting of multiple classes was eliminated. When this happened three fleets became insufficient, because now I have ships that sit at home, unusable because they weren’t needed in a particular defense, and aren’t useful in attack. Also because every race has multiple classes of pods now two attack fleets (or more if your zik) become practical. With the current scoring system attacks are all that matter, so giving people another fleet slot would help with that as well.

One more root cause of the current insufficiency of three fleet slots. It also used to be that attacks could last for multiple ticks, as could defense. Therefore it would be possible that one set of ships would be useful for one tick, and another set useful for the next tick, so you could combine fleets that way, and not need more fleet slots. While I don’t mind going to one tick attack/defense, this has contributed to limiting the usefulness of fleets due to a lack of fleet slots.

When attacks were cut to one tick, they upped the number of roids one could take to compensate, when they cut the number of classes ships target they did nothing to compensate for this reduction, and I feel it has been a detriment to the game. Anyway I apologize for rambling, so now I’m done.
en this happened three fleet slots became totally inadicuate.
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Unread 21 Apr 2005, 18:26   #2
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

Lack of fleet slots or the avaibility of which is a real tactical dilemma. And good so. It limits options, and it should. You'll just have to prioritize what you are doing. Make the best of the slots you got. Alliancewise, this would be a major factor in warfare, as most active alliance members have all their slots in use most of the time. At least I got movement all the time.

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Although this goes to the suggestion side of it, and would make the already complex tech tree overburdening, I've occasionally played with the idea of one slot and base in the beginning, and three researchable *command centers* to get slots with.
/OFFTOPIC
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Unread 21 Apr 2005, 19:23   #3
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

Good post, although I am dubious tbh.

I can see your point, but am undecided if another fleet slot would be beneficial or detrimental. Another fleet for defending would be useful, but it would just create another fleet for the big solo type alliance players to attack with, which I disagree with. Also, restricting what fleets can do would be annoying. It is a good well thought out post, but I am not sure which side of the argument I would fall on yet.
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Unread 21 Apr 2005, 19:37   #4
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

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Originally Posted by Bashar
Good post, although I am dubious tbh.

I can see your point, but am undecided if another fleet slot would be beneficial or detrimental. Another fleet for defending would be useful, but it would just create another fleet for the big solo type alliance players to attack with, which I disagree with. Also, restricting what fleets can do would be annoying. It is a good well thought out post, but I am not sure which side of the argument I would fall on yet.
I'm not necissarily arguing for a fourth fleet slot. I think three slots are enough, I think I would prefer to see multiple class targeting to come back, and thereby increasing the complexty of the game. One other option that was suggested on IRC would be to allow four slots, but no more then two could be used for defense, or attack. So basically you have two attack slots and two defense slots. I'm not sure I like that idea, but it's an interesting suggestion.
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Unread 21 Apr 2005, 19:51   #5
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

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Originally Posted by Monroe
One other option that was suggested on IRC would be to allow four slots, but no more then two could be used for defense, or attack. So basically you have two attack slots and two defense slots. I'm not sure I like that idea, but it's an interesting suggestion.
Nah, don't like that. There are times you need to 3 fleet defend, and very rarely, times you need to 3 fleet attack (e.g. red defence). That gets to the point PA-Team is controlling the strategies you use, which I am VERY against.
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Unread 21 Apr 2005, 20:14   #6
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

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Originally Posted by Bashar
Nah, don't like that. There are times you need to 3 fleet defend, and very rarely, times you need to 3 fleet attack (e.g. red defence). That gets to the point PA-Team is controlling the strategies you use, which I am VERY against.
I agree, but someone mentioned it, so I thought I'd post it.
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Unread 22 Apr 2005, 04:21   #7
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

I would be in favour of increasing the number of fleet slots. Since that idea has already been discussed, I won't say anything else about it, other than that it has my support.

A possible alternative would be to re-brand fleet slots as "jumpgates", so you have 3 jumpgates used to send fleets outside of your galaxy. This would mean that the current "base" fleet would also be able to be sent in-galaxy, even if you had 3 fleets out elsewhere. I think this would boost galaxy cooperation and would be good for the game.
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Unread 22 Apr 2005, 04:57   #8
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

great idea Rob. A 4th slot (in whichever form) for gal travel only would help solve a major problem this round : major alliances forbid ingal def to their members coz they need the 3 fleet slots, cooperation has become poor, the traditional last line of defense need to be resurrected.
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Unread 22 Apr 2005, 06:39   #9
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
I would be in favour of increasing the number of fleet slots. Since that idea has already been discussed, I won't say anything else about it, other than that it has my support.

A possible alternative would be to re-brand fleet slots as "jumpgates", so you have 3 jumpgates used to send fleets outside of your galaxy. This would mean that the current "base" fleet would also be able to be sent in-galaxy, even if you had 3 fleets out elsewhere. I think this would boost galaxy cooperation and would be good for the game.
That thing about the Base fleet is quite interesting actually. I'd be quite surprised if nobody has suggested it before - it really could work! Especially for people active in their alliances like me, who rarely have fleet slots free...
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Unread 22 Apr 2005, 08:13   #10
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

That 4th slot for ingal defence only is a good idea indeed. Just make sure it´s an actual new slot, and not the"home fleet", else we get the issue of having your home fleet out for ingal defence, while your production ships appear in it, like in R1. (For the newer players who weren´t around in those days: In R1 you could use the home fleet as a normal fleet. This had a "nice" option: if you´d send 1 fighter to attack with a low ETA, and had some resources saved up, you could time your production and have a complete roid or bashfleet ready on ETA 1 before landing, and they all appeared in your home fleet, and ETA 1 from landing )

This fleet for galaxy purposes wouldn´t attack ofcourse, but still I´d hate to face the choice of 1) loosing my production ships because they´d get killed in defence, or 2) cancel production, and still loosing 20% of their resources.

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Unread 22 Apr 2005, 08:32   #11
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

I quite like hte idea of that base fleet for ingal def only, but I also like this round where it's actually possible to cap roids regularly (from my PoV anyway) as it makes the game far more exciting (again, from my PoV). But my (awesome) galaxy's defence has already stopped about 20+ ToT and VGN CR fleets (plus other ship classes, though not as regularly) from roiding me over a period of 5 nights where I got waved almost as soon as I got offline :/

With even more defence ingal, and a chance for one of my deffers to fake 1.5k bombers 3 times over, it would make me almost immune to certain incs which is surely bad for the game. It could just benefit the players in top galaxies; players who are already members of top alliances...

I'd like to be open minded about this, but I think there could be genuine problems with it too.
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Unread 22 Apr 2005, 15:13   #12
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Thumbs up Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

Allowing an additional fleet slot for in-gal use only would be a great idea and a great way to encourage more in-gal cooperation.
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Unread 22 Apr 2005, 16:48   #13
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

I also am liking this idea of a base fleet for use in the galaxy. There may even been a reasonable argument here to allow that fleet to also travel in cluster, and thereby increasing the odds of a cluster ally making some sort of sense. The cluster argument is weak compared to the gal argument. I for one have had a lot of trouble deciding where to send my defense fleet, and having a fleet devoted for ingal defense would be a useful tool. It would certainly strengthen people's ties to their galaxies, which would be a big plus.

One counter arguement, that has already sort of been voiced in this thread:
By creating a fleet that can only be used in gal for defense the PATeam is dictating strategy to the players. Which is not really a good thing, as we should be allowed to choose our own strategies.
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Unread 22 Apr 2005, 17:35   #14
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Exclamation Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
One counter arguement, that has already sort of been voiced in this thread:
By creating a fleet that can only be used in gal for defense the PATeam is dictating strategy to the players. Which is not really a good thing, as we should be allowed to choose our own strategies.
That's a curious argument because the game structure already does this, and has had things like this since R1. By tweaking galaxy/cluster/alliance travel times, disallowing in-gal attacts, etc. they have always been "dictating strategy" (if you want to look at it that way).
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Unread 22 Apr 2005, 17:57   #15
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
That's a curious argument because the game structure already does this, and has had things like this since R1. By tweaking galaxy/cluster/alliance travel times, disallowing in-gal attacts, etc. they have always been "dictating strategy" (if you want to look at it that way).
True, and the argument I gave would apply to those kinds of things as well. Most of the examples you cited were "tweaked" not so much to dictate strategy, but to limit how much the game could be abused. Since in the case of a fourth fleet slot, the system is not currently being abused, it wouldn't fit into the above examples. However there may be abuses people could make of the system which we havn't considered yet IF they are allowed a fourth slot for ingal defense. Either way at this point I think it would be interesting to add this fourth in-gal defensive fleet slot to the beta for next round and see what happens.
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Unread 22 Apr 2005, 18:00   #16
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

bringing back the strong galaxy values of old is a good thing. Back when it was more about galaxies and less about alliances.
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Unread 22 Apr 2005, 20:25   #17
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

the fourth slot for in gal is a fantastic idea..... and has my support
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Unread 23 Apr 2005, 04:36   #18
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

So all your 3 fleets are out and a galaxy mates ask for def. Now you have to send all your ships at home to defence, even the ships not targetting the attacker which may get targetted back.

Or do you suggest there is one more slot to use to shuffle ships? If so, the suggestion is not far from having 4 fleets.
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Unread 23 Apr 2005, 07:27   #19
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

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Originally Posted by Tatu
So all your 3 fleets are out and a galaxy mates ask for def. Now you have to send all your ships at home to defence, even the ships not targetting the attacker which may get targetted back.

Or do you suggest there is one more slot to use to shuffle ships? If so, the suggestion is not far from having 4 fleets.
From what i understand of the idea, you have a Base fleet, Fleet 1, 2, 3 and Fleet 4 which is ONLY for galaxy defence - cos that way ships in production can still be produced as well.

I also strongly support this idea - i think its great .
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Unread 23 Apr 2005, 12:56   #20
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

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Unread 23 Apr 2005, 20:01   #21
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Re: Fleet Structural Imbalance caused by three fleet slots

One possible negative implication of the 4th in gal only defense fleet is that it will be more difficult for fleet catching, and for zik's to steal ships. If I can have three fleets out and about and save my in gal fleet for when I get attacked I can send my fleet away and not have to worry about it being caught at home. I actually ran into this exact problem last night, where I had to recall my attack fleet to keep my base fleet from getting caught at home. With the addition of the 4th fleet, this particular problem would go away. Not sure it's such a good idea as it limits the advantages of a counter a little bit.
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