[Football] Dutch Euro 2004 Selection

[Leshy]

Thought I'd give you the heads up on whom we're bringing along.

Goalkeepers
Edwin van der Sar (Fulham, Eng)
Has been part of the dutch selection since 1994, and has always been a very reliable goalkeeper. Had a very good season at Fulham. Goalkeeper who very rarely slips up and keeps his head cool. One of the most experienced players in the selection. Penalties are a bit of a weak spot for him, though.

Ronald Waterreus (PSV, Ned)
Been the national backup keeper for quite some time. Left PSV after a long period, and had a fairly weak season. Slipped up twice in the UEFA quarter final against Newcastle United, costing PSV a place with the final four. Regardless, there aren't any other dutch goalkeepers that can compete for his backup position - very experienced and normally reliable.

Sander Westerveld (Real Sociedad, Spa)
A good goalkeeper who has been with the national squad for some time as well - had playtime at Euro 2000 as well. By no means a world-class goalie, but fairly reliable if called upon, and does a good job at Real Sociedad, especially last year when the whole team performed amazingly well.

Defense
Frank de Boer (Glasgow Rangers, Sco)
With 104 caps, the Netherland's most experienced man. He is, however, old, and almost guaranteed to slip up once a match. His pace and condition don't allow him to play against a direct opponent - as a general full back he can still be of value. His pass, free kick and headers can still be quite dangerous.

Wilfred Bouma (PSV, Ned)
One of the best players of PSV this season. Has performed very consistently and grown out to be a reliable defender on the left side of the pitch. Has a good free kick and attacking qualities, considering he started out his career as a striker.

Giovanni van Bronckhorst (Barcelona, Spa)
Not by any means an ideal left-back, he is one of the few players who can adequately cover the position. Has had a decent season with Barcelona, and has been growing in his defensive qualities.

John Heitinga (Ajax, Ned)
One of the Netherland's most promising defenders. Only 20 and just halfway through the season having returned from an injury which kept him out of play for the better part of a year, he is a standard first team choice at Ajax now. Takes out his man ruthlessly and has an excellent pass forward. Can play both right center and right-back.

Michael Reiziger (Barcelona, Spa)
The only real right-back in the selection, Reiziger has been a part of the dutch team for a long time as well. Used to have a lot of attacking quality, but I think he's no longer even a first choice at Barcelona. Has become somewhat sluggish, but is still a reliable person for the position if there is a direct opponent to be dealt with.

Jaap Stam (Lazio Roma, Ita)
The Netherland's main man in the defense. Jaap Stam consistenly performs every single match and does his job in the back. Equally ruthless in taking out whomever he's playing against, he'll be one of the first people to be put down on the match sheet. Plays central-right.

Midfield
Mark van Bommel (PSV, Ned)
Has had an equally rough season at PSV as Waterreus. Has been waiting for a transfer for years, and will likely be getting one into Germany this summer. He is generally considered to have a very German playstyle - those little nasty fouls and tricks, which can be a great asset to the team. Will have to play less offensive in the national squad, and has seen his position on the right central midfield severely threatened by Wesley Sneijder.

Philip Cocu (Barcelona, Spa)
Philip Cocu is another no-brainer. He practically always puts in a good performance, and can play both in defense, as well as a defending midfielder. He is the team captain, and will likely be seeing action as central left defender.

Edgar Davids (Barcelone, Spa)
Despite having had a very difficult period in the qualification series, and almost single-handedly causing the Netherlands' defeat against the Czech Republic by getting two bookings and giving away a penalty within 12 minutes, he has regained confidence and trust with a few excellent performances. With him on board, Barcelona has also been on an impressive rampage through La Liga, and as long as Davids can play subserviantly and focus on his tasks, he's the only choice for left central or central back midfield.

Clarence Seedorf (AC Milan, Ita)
Extremely controversial person. The only player in the world to win the Champions League with three teams (Ajax, Real Madrid, AC Milan), and a standard choice in AC Milan's first squad. In the national team, however, he always tries to do more than he should and gets in the way of his teammates. His somewhat arrogant attitude and the fact he always misses penalties, have given him a very bad reputation with the dutch fans. Has never put in a convincing performance, but is unarguably too good not to include.

Wesley Sneijder (Ajax, Ned)
The big revelation of the national squad. Nearly single-handedly put the Dutch past Scotland by scoring one goal and giving the assists for three others, and has giving the national team extra impulse and activity on midfield whenever brought on the pitch. His distance shots and passing are definitely an asset, although his season at Ajax has been fairly colourless. Whether he has been convincing enough for Advocaat to shove Van Bommel aside as a first choice though, remains to be seen.

Rafael van der Vaart (Ajax, Ned)
Hailed as one of the best Dutch talents, this season has been very average for him, although improving in the last few months. He has performed well in the dutch qualification matches, scoring several goals, and is an attacking midfielder to be reckoned with. He can score pretty much anytime, and can put other players in the position to score from almost any situation.

Boudewijn Zenden (Middlesbrough, Eng)
A similar type to Van Bronckhorst, Zenden can play both as an offensive left winger, as a left back, though excelling in neither. Did put in an excellent performance against Greece in last match, although on Euro '04 he will likely cover the left-back position.

Attackers
Pierre van Hooijdonk (Fenerbahçe, Tur)
Became champion with FB last weekend in Turkey, and has been a large part of that championship. Although he scores enough from standard play situations, his most well-known weapon is his free kick, with which he gave Feyenoord the UEFA Cup in 2001. He's also undoubtedly the guy-who-makes-jokes-and-everyone-likes of the squad, and should be selected for his behind-the-scenes motivational qualities alone.

Patrick Kluivert (Barcelona, Spa)
Despite being the dutch top goalscorer of all times, he is not without dispute. Largely due to his arrogant attitude, his speeding which caused a fatal accident, his alleged involvement in a rape and recently again a conviction for aggressive behaviour in a Spanish club, he is unpopular with the national fans. Has had a rough season with several injuries, but has nevertheless scored a bunch of very important goals for Barcelona. Has been played as a second striker between midfield and Van Nistelrooy in the qualification matches, but failed to perform adequately there. Did put in a good performance when playing as the only central striker against Austria.

Roy Makaay (Bayern München, Ger)
Was Europe's top goalscorer last season at Deportivo la Coruña, and is a very important goalscorer for Bayern as well. He has proven to score anywhere and for any team, but has failed to convince in the national squad so far. Definitely a world-class striker, and Advocaat may be desperately trying to team him up with Van Nistelrooy, but whether he will suddenly shine remains to be seen.

Andy van der Meyde (Internazionale, Ita)
The season has been very rough for Andy. He has been unable to settle in Italy, and may very well return to Ajax after Portugal. Not had much playtime for Inter, but has still been selected on the grounds that we have no other right wingers. He doesn't have much of an action with which to pass his direct opponent, and despite the fact he can be completely invisible for an entire match, he can yet give those one or two deciding assists, as he has proven in the past.

Ruud van Nistelrooy (Manchester United, Eng)
Has had a less productive season than before with ManU, but nevertheless remains very important for them. He has an uncanny ability for being in the right location at the right time, and despite lacking real footballing qualities, his finishing is excellent. Even so, like his co-partners up front, he has not put in any bit of a convincing performance for the national squad, despite three goals against Scotland. Will likely be Advocaat's first choice up front.

Marc Overmars (Barcelona, Spa)
Used to be one of the fastest and most feared wingers in the world. Used to be. He's at an higher age now, and his speed isn't entirely what it used to be. Despite that, he is still a very experienced player and can cause any right or left back a definite headache and an unpleasant evening.

Arjen Robben (PSV, Ned)
Another great dutch talent, this new Chelsea signing is an extremely dangerous winger. He has speed, passing and finishing skills, and he isn't afraid to go into a confrontation with his direct opponent on the pitch. Still young, and could very well turn out to be one of our greatest assets up front.

[Stew]

I think you'll do quite well, but stupidly as it seems, have trouble up front. They all seem crap/not in form!

[LHC]

Pierre van Hooijdonk
He's also undoubtedly the joker of the squad, and should be selected for his behind-the-scenes motivational qualities alone.

[JC]

Very talented individuals but you never seem to play as a team. It wouldnt surprise me if your players all fall out as usual and ruin your chances of winning when you quite clearly have the talent to .

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by LHC

Fixed for clarity.

[LHC]

I was actually questioning the entire idea that he isn't a miserable team wrecker.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Reizeger isn't playing at Barca because Puyol is both local and better.

[Leshy]

Ah. He isn't.

In response to LHC, that is.

[Lupin]

we'll beat you anyways.

[Deffeh]

No ricksen

[LHC]

Originally Posted by Leshy

Ah. He isn't.

In response to LHC, that is.

Oh. He used to be at Forest. He destroyed them. *



*I dont care really

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

No ricksen

He hasn't been part of the squad for a good while now, tbh.

[Evergreen]

Zenden has been the only thing that's kept boro away from relegation imo.

too many drama queens in that squad though.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Evergreen

Zenden has been the only thing that's kept boro away from relegation

What about Southgate?

What about Mendieta?

[Scorpio]

Originally Posted by LHC

Oh. He used to be at Forest. He destroyed them. *



*I dont care really

Thought he didn't get payed at Forest (??)

But anyway, Hasselbaink is not on the list! A wise decision.
Should have left out Seedorf as well and trick Bergkamp into coming back

[Deffeh]

Its difficult to see where it could all go wrong for Holland. Theres such an immense depth of talent there, as usual. The amount of options you have up front as well is scary.. thats certainly something England cant compete with. They bring on Darius Vassell and Emile Heskey, you bring on Hojo and Robben.

[SeanG]

Where in the blue hell is Hofland?

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by SeanG

Where in the blue hell is Hofland?

He's been injured for a large amount of the season and has had very little playtime - he's also no longer first choice at PSV and will likely leave over the summer.

[Reidy]

Am i right in thinking seedorf wont play on the right?
Cocu will play at sweeper? surely de boer wont get a game?
Heitinga seems a good player, but i think his spacial awareness isn't quite good enough for the highest level yet.
Van Bommel and Davids dont like each other?
And for me Pierre van Hooijdonk is the only real leader in your team and he probably wont get a game

i do agree tho that Sneijder and Van Der Vaart are amazing players

cant c u winning it tho tbh

[SilverSmoke]

I don't have a lot of faith in our defense somehow.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Reidy

Am i right in thinking seedorf wont play on the right?

He'll get a central midfield position when he plays - more likely on the right-hand side than on the left-hand. He won't play as a full right midfielder/winger.

Cocu will play at sweeper? surely de boer wont get a game?

Undoubtedly Advocaat will play De Boer at some point to be nice - I suspect however, that Cocu will be playing mostly as left central defender. Sweeping can be done by Davids on midfield.

Heitinga seems a good player, but i think his spacial awareness isn't quite good enough for the highest level yet.

He'll likely be playing at right-back next to Stam. He is an excellent defender and coupled with Stam, I'd say he's not a risk whatsoever.

Van Bommel and Davids dont like each other?

They don't.

And for me Pierre van Hooijdonk is the only real leader in your team and he probably wont get a game

He may see some substitution time, but he's not competing with the likes of Kluivert, Van Nistelrooy and Makaay for a first-team spot.

cant c u winning it tho tbh

Probably not. We could and should have bagged both the WC '98 and Euro 2000 as well, and ended up with nothing as well. Damn penalties.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by SilverSmoke

I don't have a lot of faith in our defense somehow.

Heitinga - Stam - Cocu - Bouma

Seems like a fairly solid lineup to me, to be honest.

[KoeN]

Heitinga - Stam - Bouma - Van Bronckhorst


way to go.

(we're fked when Van der Sar gets injured btw....Waterreus as 2nd goalie )

[Leshy]

Van Bronckhorst as left-back? No offense, but I'd much rather see Bouma there - both Van Bronckhorst and Zenden have proven to be fairly unreliable backs - average at best.

And if you don't play Cocu in defense, you're gonna have to sacrifice a midfielder. Cocu is too good to leave off the pitch, and he's the team captain as well.

[KoeN]

cocu should be used on the midfield, not in defense.
also,bouma has much more qualitities as centraldefender than he does (i think he has proven that aswell this season, when he played hofland out of the team -before he got injured-).

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by KoeN

cocu should be used on the midfield, not in defense.

Cocu has proven to be a reliable defender as well, I have no qualms with him playing there.

If you plan on using wingers, you'll end up with a 4-3-3 system. With Davids, Sneijder and Van der Vaart being imo standard midfield lineup, that leaves no room for Cocu. You could fit him in if you plan on playing 4-4-2 without wingers, but that would be a terrible waste of Robben.

I really can't think of any lineup that justifies playing Cocu in midfield - especially when you consider he is far more valuable as a defender who can move in towards midfield when required (eg. when we are in possession).

4-3-3 winger system
                     Van der Sar

     Heitinga      Stam      Cocu          Bouma

                       Davids
             Sneijder         Van der Vaart

     Van der Meyde                        Robben
                      Kluivert

4-4-2 diamond system
                     Van der Sar

     Heitinga      Stam      Cocu          Bouma

                       Davids
         Sneijder                   Seedorf
                   Van der Vaart

                Makaay      Kluivert

[KoeN]

4-3-3 winger system
                     Van der Sar

     Heitinga      Stam      Bouma          Van Bronckhorst

                            Cocu
             Van der Vaart         Davids

     Van der Meyde                        Robben
                      Van Nistelrooy

4-4-2 diamond system
                     Van der Sar

     Heitinga      Stam      Bouma         Van Bronckhorst

                       Cocu
         Davids                   Robben
                   Van der Vaart

                Makaay      Van Nistelrooy

[Leshy]

• Van der Vaart isn't a right central midfielder.
• Neither is Davids.
• Robben on the other hand, isn't a left midflelder. He has little to no defending skill, and with Van Bronckhorst behind him, our entire left side just begs to be shot down and trampled over.
• Van Nistelrooy has yet to play his first convincing game for the national team.

[KoeN]

Originally Posted by Leshy

• Van der Vaart isn't a right central midfielder.
• Neither is Davids.
• Robben on the other hand, isn't a left midflelder. He has little to no defending skill, and with Van Bronckhorst behind him, our entire left side just begs to be shot down and trampled over.
• Van Nistelrooy has yet to play his first convincing game for the national team.

* sneijder is too young, too unexperienced, especially in combination with van der vaart.
* both davids and van der vaart can play central on the midfield. (they even that together this year btw).
*robben can be used as left -offensive- midfielder as long as cocu and van bronckhorst can cover his back. the 2 "deep strikers" need feedback from the wings (in 4-4-2 that means the left and right of the midfield) or it's doomed to fail. you have seedorf and sneijder on those positions, who are completely inable to chose another path from the centre...it'll get crowded there the way you play.
* (ps you play seedorf?? hahahahahhaa)
* you still prefer kluivert over van nistelrooy...i don't know if that's just you being stubborn or that you honestly don't see kluivert is FAR over his top. (and van nistelrooy being about the best striker in the world).

[Stew]

Didnt Ruud get a hat trick against Scotland?

I may be wrong with this - cba to google!

[KoeN]

he did

[Stew]

Then surely *THAT* was a convincing game?

Yes I know Scotland don't count as proper opposition, but still...!

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by KoeN

* sneijder is too young, too unexperienced, especially in combination with van der vaart.

If anything, our recent qualification and practice matches have proven that Sneijder is much more aggressive and brings much more to the team than Van Bommel does. Advocaat has started out with Van Bommel several times, substituting him with Sneijder during half-time. Our performance, especially in midfield, has been better every time with Sneijder on the pitch. He was involved with four goals in the 6-0 against Scotland, scoring one and giving assists for another three.

* both davids and van der vaart can play central on the midfield. (they even that together this year btw).

Both Davids and Van der Vaart play on the left side of the pitch. Not sure about Edgar, but Rafael is left-footed. They never play on the right side - and for a reason. The only thing your line-up does is place players where they don't belong, thereby weakening both the defense and the midfield, just for the sake of playing Cocu on midfield. Don't.

*robben can be used as left -offensive- midfielder as long as cocu and van bronckhorst can cover his back.

A left offensive midfielder/winger isn't part of a diamond formation. Robben's quality is taking the ball down the line, past his man and putting it in front of the goal. Not dominating a large portion of territory, taking and keeping possession on midfield. And Van Bronckhorst needs someone to watch his own back when he's just defending, let alone him having it to do for someone else.

the 2 "deep strikers" need feedback from the wings (in 4-4-2 that means the left and right of the midfield) or it's doomed to fail.

Get a clue on basic tactics and read up on what a diamond formation entails.

* (ps you play seedorf?? hahahahahhaa)

Seedorf is the standard left-midfielder of one of Europe's strongest teams and has had a very strong season. He's a strong and dominating player, and the ideal man we have for the left-hand side of the diamond.

you honestly don't see kluivert is FAR over his top

Despite having had a fair amount of injuries this season, he has still scored a good few goals for Barcelona. And not just the 3-0 or the 4-1, but deciding goals in matches that Barca needed to win. Additionally, Kluivert has the ability to let other people score and give assists - Ruud's strong point is falling over.

(and van nistelrooy being about the best striker in the world).

My turn to laugh.

Originally Posted by Stew

Then surely *THAT* was a convincing game?

One of his goals was a simple tap-in that anyone could have scored. The second was a simple header from a corner that was reproduced by another player shortly after. The third goal - props to him - was an actual receiving, controlling and shooting it in accurately.

Most of the time in that match as well, he was invisible, losing the ball or eating grass. The only thing that game really proved was that we need to play with a single central striker, rather than two, if we use wingers. Our qualifier against Austria was the last one that happened in - and surprisingly, Kluivert as the sole striker played an excellent match.

[KoeN]

dear leshy,

* you compare sneijder to van bommel and say he brings more. of course he brings more; van bommel is about the worst player that got selected, for crying out loud. point is that both players don't bring enough. promising, but too instable yet.
*seedorf never brought anything good to the national team. the only thing i can recall is the missing of several penalties and egocentric behaviour when having the ball. (apart from him being an arrogant twat in general).
*if kluivert is that good, then why do you think barcelona is so desperately trying to get rid of him? and why did even advocaat -who used to prefer kluivert over van nistelrooy- leave him out of the starting line-up the last matches?
* (ps all goals kluivert scored this season were easy, not to miss chances. and did you count the balls he missed? it's a fact that he doesn't posess the killer-instinct ruud does have. and apart from that, he's also inable to "feed" other players. (that's why all experiments with him + other striker failed).
* you say 4-4-2 is about "dominating a large portion of territory". if that's your opinion, then why do you use 4 players who all play in the centre? seedorf for example won't accept a role a left-midfielder (you do remember when he was put on the right don't you?). he'll go to center, leaving a huge gap on the left.
byebye territory....

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by KoeN

* (ps all goals kluivert scored this season were easy, not to miss chances. and did you count the balls he missed? it's a fact that he doesn't posess the killer-instinct ruud does have. and apart from that, he's also inable to "feed" other players. (that's why all experiments with him + other striker failed).

Ruud has had a (by his standards) poor season. He's not been playing very well.

[KoeN]

true, but it's still much and much better than what kluivert achieved this season.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by KoeN

point is that both players don't bring enough. promising, but too instable yet.

Strongly disagree. If you'd seen any of the recent qualifiers or practice games, you'd have seen that the single person on midfield giving the team new impulses and extra impulses, has been Sneijder.

Besides, if you think Van der Vaart would do a better job on the right central side of midfield than Sneijder, that says really enough

* seedorf never brought anything good to the national team. the only thing i can recall is the missing of several penalties and egocentric behaviour when having the ball.

He's hardly the only one to have missed penalties - Ronald de Boer, Frank de Boer, Kluivert, Stam, Bosvelt all spring to mind as having missed penalties. And Davids has played enough games of "Look at me with the ball". Fact is, Seedorf has never been played on the position he has with AC Milan. But then again, you don't see why left midfielders shouldn't play on the right side, so fair enough

*if kluivert is that good, then why do you think barcelona is so desperately trying to get rid of him? and why did even advocaat -who used to prefer kluivert over van nistelrooy- leave him out of the starting line-up the last matches?

He isn't particularly popular in Barcelona, granted. Nevertheless he has been very important to them this season, although he has had a good few injuries. Which, incidentally, is one reason why Advocaat hasn't played him in several matches. Also, Advocaat tends to play him as a semi-midfielder, rather than as a full striker - Van Nistelrooy has always had the luxury of playing at his own position and still failing to impress.

and apart from that, he's also inable to "feed" other players. (that's why all experiments with him + other striker failed).

...

Kluivert is a striker. Not a player like Van der Vaart or Litmanen - he isn't on the pitch exclusively to feed other players. When he is the sole striker, however, that is exactly the ability he displays. I'm willing to bet that if you dive into statistics and see how many assists Kluivert has made in addition to his own goals, and compare it to the assists that Ruud has made (ho ho, none), he's of much more value.

* you say 4-4-2 is about "dominating a large portion of territory". if that's your opinion, then why do you use 4 players who all play in the centre?

Sneijder doesn't play in center, Seedorf at Milan doesn't play in center. Van der Vaart is often around the whole pitch, and Davids covers a lot of territory in the back.

seedorf for example won't accept a role a left-midfielder (you do remember when he was put on the right don't you?).

Learn the difference between left and right, you buffoon.

Perhaps he moves from the right to the center because he is used to playing on the LEFT side of the pitch, because he can't play on the RIGHT side of the pitch.