Americans are evil and torture Iraqis true story

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

p.s. Does anyone know why two (I presume) seperate instances of torture happened to be brought to light at the same time? Or was it the same facility with British / American command? I haven't had time to read up on this yet, just seemed a little odd.

as for the american one, it came to "light" in march.

News organization were told during April not to release any info they had about it, what with the flare up already being ugly and all.

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

vaio in 'contempt for iraqi life' shocker.

I aim to please

Vaio

[acropolis]

tbh i don't get what the big deal with this is. if the humiliation of some iraqi prisoners is the worst thing american soldiers do in this war, then i'd have to say i was really impressed with Bush et co.

Seriously, after blowing the limbs off of countless iraqi children, you really have to be taken aback by anyone that says "OMG THEY MADE THOSE PRISONERS FORM A HUMAN PYRAMID."

though it does support the age-old adage that "nothing moves as fast as pictures of naked people through the internet"

[Jammers]

Originally Posted by Vermillion

You know what's funny? I was just reading the biography of Felix Dzerzhinsky, founder and first head of the KGB, and he used almost that EXACT same line to justify the excesses his agency performed in the defence of the state. What a coincidence I tell you.

Great minds think alike.

[Vaio]

The americans were helping the iraqis' get in touch with their gay side

Vaio

[Vaio]

It might be fake !

Sorry to disappoint some of you but it looks like the British ones are fake

Vaio

[Luckeh!!!!]

not condoning what the western side are doing.

but at least the US prisoners are still alive, same can't be said for the prisoners of Saddam.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Vaio

It might be fake !

Sorry to disappoint some of you but it looks like the British ones are fake

Vaio

if i understood it correctly thats only about the british troops

[LHC]

Yeah, that's what Vaio said.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by Luckeh!!!!

not condoning what the western side are doing.

but at least the US prisoners are still alive, same can't be said for the prisoners of Saddam.

id rather be dead than tortured.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Luckeh!!!!

but at least the US prisoners are still alive, same can't be said for the prisoners of Saddam.

I think the point is that when your argument is "At least we're not as bad as psychotic genocidal dictators" then it's time to re-examine your actions.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by LHC

Yeah, that's what Vaio said.

i guess i should read a posting to the end before i qute it

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Vaio

Sorry to disappoint some of you but it looks like the British ones are fake

From the tone used in this thread, I'm surprised you're not the one who is "disappointed".

[Texan]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

I think the point is that when your argument is "At least we're not as bad as psychotic genocidal dictators" then it's time to re-examine your actions.

I think you know that the U.S. soldier's treatment of prisoners is not even comparable to what Hussein did to his prisoners. That's why I can't understand why you would want to compare them. Do you really believe that forcing prisoners to pose nude or "pretending" like you plan to torture them physically is "not as bad" as raping and murdering a guy's family before murdering him? Or do you just post crap comparisons on this forum because you have nothing better to discuss?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Texan

Or do you just post crap comparisons on this forum because you have nothing better to discuss?

I didn't post a comparison, the person I was quoting did. It's completley irrelevent to my mind whether the United States are worse than Iraqi's (in this context at least) with regards to the treatment of prisoners.

Someone else commented that "at least we're better than Saddam!" which I found rather silly.

[wu_trax]

but compared to not torturing anyone at all its still pretty bad, dont you think? (and as i understood this whole incident it wasnt even for information, but for the fun of it)

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

but compared to not torturing anyone at all its still pretty bad, dont you think? (and as i understood this whole incident it wasnt even for information, but for the fun of it)

Well, this is the point really. If I rescue a woman from a psychotic wife-beater after he tried to kill her, and bring her home, then her previous poor treatment does not justify me demeaning her in any way or form. As I said in the other thread, "But all the other kids are doing much worse than me, mom!" is unsound as justification for one's actions.

[wu_trax]

and, other than the us-army, saddam never claimed to be the good guy.

seriously, if you want to free the people from 'evil' you cant treat them like this. there have been reports on humilation and the like all the time since the war started (although none of it as bad as this), how could this whole thing ever work out with soldiers that do such things?

[JonnyBGood]

I got my Saddam Hussein "Hide and Seek Champion 2003" t-shirt off the internet on Friday

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I got my Saddam Hussein "Hide and Seek Champion 2003" t-shirt off the internet on Friday

Is there some sort of officially sanctioned guide I can buy to learn how to be cool as you?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Is there some sort of officially sanctioned guide I can buy to learn how to be cool as you?

Unfortunately not, the last ones sold out yesterday


We do however have plenty left on how to be as cool as Muslim!

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Texan

I think you know that the U.S. soldier's treatment of prisoners is not even comparable to what Hussein did to his prisoners. That's why I can't understand why you would want to compare them. Do you really believe that forcing prisoners to pose nude or "pretending" like you plan to torture them physically is "not as bad" as raping and murdering a guy's family before murdering him? Or do you just post crap comparisons on this forum because you have nothing better to discuss?

they sodomized them with objects they found around the prison.

now, it's difficult to claim that that isn't rape, and even though you might personally enjoy that for most people it would fall into the category of torture as well.

anyway, the assumption that the worst treatment of prisoners will always be photographed and immediately released to the press seems a step beyond naïve to me.

[Texan]

Originally Posted by acropolis

they sodomized them with objects they found around the prison.

now, it's difficult to claim that that isn't rape, and even though you might personally enjoy that for most people it would fall into the category of torture as well.

anyway, the assumption that the worst treatment of prisoners will always be photographed and immediately released to the press seems a step beyond naïve to me.

I read on a couple message boards that the prisoners were sodomized. I did not read that on any of the news sources I saw. Unless you have a link to a valid news source, I have to assume that the prisoners were forced to pose nude and that one had wires attached to him and was lead to believe that he was going to be tortured.

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Texan

I read on a couple message boards that the prisoners were sodomized. I did not read that on any of the news sources I saw. Unless you have a link to a valid news source, I have to assume that the prisoners were forced to pose nude and that one had wires attached to him and was lead to believe that he was going to be tortured.

ah. That's just what I was told by Fox News .

at fox news website, i got this:

Detainees were beaten with a broom handle and one was sodomized with "a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick," the report said, according to the magazine.

apparently a lot of the stuff is coming from that article in the New Yorker, which i've not read.

edit:
and now i've read the new yorker article, which is online (and free!)
This is taken from a report prepared by Major General Taguba on abuses in Iraqi prisons:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by acropolis

ah. That's just what I was told by Fox News .

at fox news website, i got this:


apparently a lot of the stuff is coming from that article in the New Yorker, which i've not read.

omg?

fox isnt spewing bullshit american propganda all over the place?

fox is actually telling something that might demean the status of americans?

fox is telling the truth?

are you sure it was fox?

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Zar

fox isnt spewing bullshit american propganda all over the place?

fox is actually telling something that might demean the status of americans?

fox is telling the truth?

are you sure it was fox?

the right wing nuts in America are probably even angrier about this than the left.

To them, the one unforgivable sin is doing anything that might endanger Bush's reelection chances. Screams of "TREASON!!!" and calls for the death penalty are pouring out.

PS: if anyone believed that iraq had any freedom of the press today (despite Bremer shutting down the anti-american one) the fact that none of their papers considered those photos newsworthy pretty clearly tells you what the situation is.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by acropolis

the right wing nuts in America are probably even angrier about this than the left.

To them, the one unforgivable sin is doing anything that might endanger Bush's reelection chances. Screams of "TREASON!!!" and calls for the death penalty are pouring out.

really? I'm surprised...

i thought they would be applauding whats happening. I mean they're all ragheads and deserve to be tortured to death, and being American soliders and all they should be congratulated for doing such a brilliant job in iraq.

then again they are right wing nuts

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Zar

really? I'm surprised...

i thought they would be applauding whats happening. I mean they're all ragheads and deserve to be tortured to death, and being American soliders and all they should be congratulated for doing such a brilliant job in iraq.

then again they are right wing nuts

yeah i don't think anyone actually cares about the prisoners.

but this really isn't good for PR, isn't good for the chances of success, and isn't good for Bush's approval rating.

So you'll get an odd schism from right wingers: "What they did the prisoners isn't really all that bad, and they should be flayed alive before being stoned to death for doing it"

[Texan]

Originally Posted by acropolis

ah. That's just what I was told by Fox News .

at fox news website, i got this:


apparently a lot of the stuff is coming from that article in the New Yorker, which i've not read.

edit:
and now i've read the new yorker article, which is online (and free!)
This is taken from a report prepared by Major General Taguba on abuses in Iraqi prisons:

Ok. It's worse than I thought. I had not seen the New Yorker article.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by acropolis

yeah i don't think anyone actually cares about the prisoners.

but this really isn't good for PR, isn't good for the chances of success, and isn't good for Bush's approval rating.

So you'll get an odd schism from right wingers: "What they did the prisoners isn't really all that bad, and they should be flayed alive before being stoned to death for doing it"

so far the most common argument ive heard are those resonating around the fact that what saddam did was far worse, and that they were only doing it for interrogation purposes.... its a bit like how christians try to prove everything using the bible (fallacy)

although i doubt it is going to change public opinion among right wingers too much. They will stick with Republicans no matter what mistakes Bush makes. The only harm it will do is to centralists, who can be swayed either way.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Zar

so far the most common argument ive heard are those resonating around the fact that what saddam did was far worse, and that they were only doing it for interrogation purposes.... its a bit like how christians try to prove everything using the bible (fallacy)

Whut?

Originally Posted by Zar

although i doubt it is going to change public opinion among right wingers too much. They will stick with Republicans no matter what mistakes Bush makes. The only harm it will do is to centralists, who can be swayed either way.

Yeah, that's kind of what people have been saying in this thread.

[Ste]

If that's what they're doing to normal prisoners, I wonder what they're doing to Big Bad Saddam???

An american friend of mine has a theory that Saddam was captured before the proper fighting started and then presented to the public at the best suitable time. It's possible... There was the whole strange betting patterns on that Irish bookmakers website that were taking bets on when Saddam would be captured.

Poor guy probably has no nads left!

[Zar]

Originally Posted by Ste

If that's what they're doing to normal prisoners, I wonder what they're doing to Big Bad Saddam???

An american friend of mine has a theory that Saddam was captured before the proper fighting started and then presented to the public at the best suitable time. It's possible... There was the whole strange betting patterns on that Irish bookmakers website that were taking bets on when Saddam would be captured.

Poor guy probably has no nads left!

im waiting for them to "find" osama just before elections.

[pyirt]

Originally Posted by Stew

Turns out they're not the only ones

The pictures are obviously fake. Even I can see this.

[Ste]

After seeing the pictures I agree - the 'British' ones look completely fake and set-up.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,8542,1208623,00.html <- the pictures and the army's objections for those who havent seen them.
The 5th picture looks particularly fake.

And anyway - Would any soldier be able to take that kind of quality picture in that situation? i think not.

[Zar]

even if they are fake (which im starting to believe they are) - there is no harm in jailing a few of these army men anyway. The less of them the better....

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Zar

even if they are fake (which im starting to believe they are) - there is no harm in jailing a few of these army men anyway. The less of them the better....

You freedom defender you

[queball]

If those pictures were from a porn site, would that mean GDers aren't allowed to link to The Mirror?

[Weeks]

If the Republicans get re-elected after this, I am going to have to start a Ché style revolution.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Dr. Octagonecologyst

If the Republicans get re-elected after this, I am going to have to start a Ché style revolution.

I'd suggest you start shopping now. It's just never a good idea to underestimate the Democrats' ability to blow an election.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by Tactitus

It's just never a good idea to underestimate the Democrats' ability to blow an election.

The Republicans can 'blow' an election pretty well when they want to, as well.

I mean, who the **** thought running Bob Dole against Clinton would ever be a good idea? I mean I know The Republicans have a great affection for senile old buffers, but they tak ie a bit too far sometimes. Or Barry Goldwater?

We all have periods of lunacy, I suppose.

[Vermillion]

Originally Posted by Ste

If that's what they're doing to normal prisoners, I wonder what they're doing to Big Bad Saddam???

"Whose bike is this?"
"It's not a bike baby, its a Chopper."
"Whose Chopper is this?"
"It's Zed's."
"Where is Zed?"
"Zed's Dead baby... Zed's Dead."

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

The Republicans can 'blow' an election pretty well when they want to, as well.

I mean, who the **** thought running Bob Dole against Clinton would ever be a good idea?

Dole was uninspiring, but still managed to win 19 states. Not all that bad especially against an incumbant. He's not really in the same league as McGovern or Mondale, who also ran against incumbants but managed to win only a single state apiece.

I mean I know The Republicans have a great affection for senile old buffers, but they tak ie a bit too far sometimes. Or Barry Goldwater?

Goldwater still got more electoral votes than McGovern and Mondale combined.

[-=Zyth=-]

Im begining to think that every daily rag in the uk has 2 employees on their payrole:

Arthur Source
Andrew Friend

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

I mean, who the **** thought running Bob Dole against Clinton would ever be a good idea?

Bob Dole did.


Bob Dole.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by Tactitus

Goldwater still got more electoral votes than McGovern and Mondale combined.

Let us not forget, however, that Goldwater lost to the largest popular vote ever recorded in US Presidential election history.

Although quantities are hardly germain to the point.

[Scorpio]

I've read earlier today (don't remember where) that some french tv station is gonna broadcast some footage of a few americans killing iraqi's.
3 non-suspicious looking iraqi's killed from a helicopter, by machinegun fire. 2 were killed instantly, other one tried hiding under a truck, but got shot nonetheless.


It sucks. Those americans get paid fancy trips to play Duckhunt, I have to sit on my couch for it

[Sandsnake]

I've seen that video. it was released as "rigging explosives on an abandoned vehicle", which it looks like they're doing...not that you can actually TELL what they were up to by looking at the thermal sight recording of an apache gunship.

It's cold-blooded, sure but most distance kills are...I'm sure it'll get great ratings.

[Dace]

The "urine" in the brit pics is fake.

Urine exits the male penis with a twist which was "engineered" so that it "flies" in a straight line and not all over the place.

The "urine" in the brit pics is globular which is impossible if it was actually a guy pissing.

There are also lots of other inconsistencies.

Damage has still been done tho :shrug:

[Sandsnake]

sure, the porn site that's a fantasy rape site involving "US Soldiers" and "Iraqi women" (all actors) has made quite a stir being presented as fact in the middle east...

Their media will present anything and everything anti-outsider as fact and the people believe it because they don't know any better. sad really.