FAnG/Dragon cheaters

[Lei~]

i never asked anyone to give me any information as i certainly have no right for it.
But closing a planet down who payed for his account without showing him the evidence and giving him the chance to defend himself is just lame whatever the rules are...
Noone of you would really let that happen to himself without getting angry. And that there might be cases that dont go infront of a "court" cos ppl fear the consequences. Well were alrdy in front of the "court" here, so now ppl gotta show the ppl the evidence. And you cannot defend yourself against evidence if you dont know what evidence is being hold against you. but as i havent got closed yet maybe you get nuff info to defend yourself normally and its only been fecked up in this special case or i was just badly informed which ofc is a chance too.

[Storebo]

Originally Posted by Lei~

i never asked anyone to give me any information as i certainly have no right for it.
But closing a planet down who payed for his account without showing him the evidence and giving him the chance to defend himself is just lame whatever the rules are...
Noone of you would really let that happen to himself without getting angry. And that there might be cases that dont go infront of a "court" cos ppl fear the consequences. Well were alrdy in front of the "court" here, so now ppl gotta show the ppl the evidence. And you cannot defend yourself against evidence if you dont know what evidence is being hold against you. but as i havent got closed yet maybe you get nuff info to defend yourself normally and its only been fecked up in this special case or i was just badly informed which ofc is a chance too.

Maybe the planets that got closed have got full detail about their closure, but don't dare to tell their alliance or friend, cause they know they'll get kicked and loose respect. Maybe why we see friends and hc's responding for them. If they responded themself multihunter would get pissed about em lieing and make evidence public.

[Razorback]

Originally Posted by Lei~

i never asked anyone to give me any information as i certainly have no right for it.
But closing a planet down who payed for his account without showing him the evidence and giving him the chance to defend himself is just lame whatever the rules are...
Noone of you would really let that happen to himself without getting angry. And that there might be cases that dont go infront of a "court" cos ppl fear the consequences. Well were alrdy in front of the "court" here, so now ppl gotta show the ppl the evidence. And you cannot defend yourself against evidence if you dont know what evidence is being hold against you. but as i havent got closed yet maybe you get nuff info to defend yourself normally and its only been fecked up in this special case or i was just badly informed which ofc is a chance too.

The whole point to argue about something you are not involved in seems atleast to me pretty moot.
You cant say with 100% knowledge if they were informed or not, so baseing any arguments on "what if" seems to be alot trouble for nothing.
Im sure after the first 2 posts of this thread PaCrew/Multihunters/Creators took appropriate steps incase by technical or human error the needed evidence or information wasnt handed to the closed planets.
The whole alliance demands information or alliance will take steps story gets already a long beard especially since Fang/Dragons used it this round atleast 3 times. I doubt either Leff nor KJ had any missunderstanding of the procedures how "supposed to be cheaters" are threatened. So they knew right away any intervention of themself would bring no further weight to the case itself and is as a result useless.
It was always the case that such "dealings" were done between the planetowner and the multihunters/creators may the outcome be good or bad.
PPL crying about their friends beeing closed unjustified usually made an ass of theirself, compare Cimmeria and the Fang bg incident in r8.
Keywords are here "hacking and illegal actions", while lately always the "not defined in the rules" (rabba) and "system-mistakes by pacrew therefore not guilty" options are played.

[hook]

Originally Posted by Razorback

Keywords are here "hacking and illegal actions", while lately always the "not defined in the rules" (rabba) and "system-mistakes by pacrew therefore not guilty" options are played.

The 'not defined in the rules' option is a valid one though. It's not a nice or clean one at all, but a valid one nevertheless

[Aryn]

focht wins

ok twice i wrote out a reply then deleted it.. i don't think i should say anything more as i'm not in the multihunter team and i don't speak for them. focht pretty much said what i was going to say anyway.

[G.K Zhukov]

OMG

Focht in making sense shocker *wink wink*

[Shaithess]

Originally Posted by Storebo

If they opened him up it would mean pateam would admitt that this was partly their fault for not takeing care of this problem allready in the beta. And that Walken wasn't cheating. I'm nothing but a member of Elysium so don't take my suggestions as a policy of Elysium. Having half your alliance know your login information is worse then abusing a bug imo.

I'm sorry but I don't really agree with this... The PATeam weren't aware of this afaik, that's the impression I got from the IRC logs w/ mr Brick and the HC involved. HOW can they deal with it without being told... Oh, this Walken chappy 'forgot' to tell them. I'm sorry but IMO he was closed fair and square, ruining all the honest effort of the BCs/DCs involved in organising retals or fleetcatches on him etc.

IMO in this case he deserves to be closed, and not re-opened simply for his 'friends' in elysium.

And I wasn't saying that your suggestions were Ely policy, just that if they DID do this then it's a bad show for them :/

[Nadar]

Anyways.. Why keep discussing this since none of us really knows what happened to them? Maybe they cheated, maybe they didn't.. still it's not our job to decide wether they did or did not as long as none of us really got a clue
I mean.. some of you just post a post to say something like: "I know they cheated, because that is just typical for them" etc..

[Lei~]

focht taking this all up once again wasnt my decision i have at least twice tried to get ppl to let it rest... and after all im in some way involved as it is my alliance which is getting members deleted dont tell me you wouldnt post twenty times more than me if eclipse had ppl closed atm....

tho while doing some attack yesterday i had to find out theres some ely planets beside walken which seem to be closed too so we can start flaming someone else...
maybe i should do a lil counting im sure i can get to 15 too if i really try

may i remind you btw that you also took steps as an alliance this round to achieve something
hint rollback...

[dabult]

If Jolt or the team think somebody has cheated, they can close and delete him, no evidence even needed to be shown.

That's all this thread need to know really.

[Storebo]

Originally Posted by Shaithess

I'm sorry but I don't really agree with this... The PATeam weren't aware of this afaik, that's the impression I got from the IRC logs w/ mr Brick and the HC involved. HOW can they deal with it without being told... Oh, this Walken chappy 'forgot' to tell them. I'm sorry but IMO he was closed fair and square, ruining all the honest effort of the BCs/DCs involved in organising retals or fleetcatches on him etc.

IMO in this case he deserves to be closed, and not re-opened simply for his 'friends' in elysium.

And I wasn't saying that your suggestions were Ely policy, just that if they DID do this then it's a bad show for them :/

I've heard numerous people say "Oh.. wasn't that fixed in beta?" , "I reported that bug allready in beta" etc... So this bug was reported during the beta. Dunno why they missed it. Heh.. yes... i really started feeling sorry for thoose greedy little beasts complaining to MrBrick in that thread. They didn't care for community or that he cheated.. they just wanted their roids and blood.

And it isn't a bad show for FAnG or other alliances to take in people who have cheated in the past?

[SystemShock]

Originally Posted by dabult

If Jolt or the team think somebody has cheated, they can close and delete him, no evidence even needed to be shown.

That's all this thread need to know really.

I think he said it the best. Just because one pays money doesn't give him the right to ruin the game for others. And I think there should be a clause in the EULA, if it isn't there already(I've never read it myself), that cheaters don't need to be shown evidence before being deleted.

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by SystemShock

I think he said it the best. Just because one pays money doesn't give him the right to ruin the game for others. And I think there should be a clause in the EULA, if it isn't there already(I've never read it myself), that cheaters don't need to be shown evidence before being deleted.

yup, that would help preventing cheating. Only problem is, what if they close you when you're on holiday and login from 3 different countries? I mean, it sounds suspicious eventhough you did nothing wrong yet they can delete you and you well ... you just had though luck, bye bye 15 euro's.

Or what if you and your gf live together, both play PA (like lone and gwyn) and do login from same IP and happen to attack together alot (since you're living together and attacking with friends isn't so odd) ...

these are just a few examples why that rule should be used to prevent cheating, but isn't really fair in reality.

nway, my 2 cents. IF they are proven guilty (if someone cheated then I think eventually you'll have hard proof) then they deserve to be deleted and even banned from the game (yet I've been told that's sadly not possible.

Do not make mistakes, I and/or FAnG are as disgusted from cheaters ruining this game as you are.

rgds Kj

[xtothez]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

Or what if you and your gf live together, both play PA (like lone and gwyn) and do login from same IP and happen to attack together alot (since you're living together and attacking with friends isn't so odd) ...

these are just a few examples why that rule should be used to prevent cheating, but isn't really fair in reality.

Well you could always grab a photo of a baby, stick it up as a couple of gal banners and hey presto, instant alibi!

[Scorpio]

Originally Posted by SystemShock

I think he said it the best. Just because one pays money doesn't give him the right to ruin the game for others. And I think there should be a clause in the EULA, if it isn't there already(I've never read it myself), that cheaters don't need to be shown evidence before being deleted.

Thank god in real life we have a separation of those forces etc. Upholding the law, judging etc..

[Aryn]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

yup, that would help preventing cheating. Only problem is, what if they close you when you're on holiday and login from 3 different countries? I mean, it sounds suspicious eventhough you did nothing wrong yet they can delete you and you well ... you just had though luck, bye bye 15 euro's.

there's a difference between holidays and multiple logins from different countries. easy enough to spot. i'm not sure it's possible to login from the USA, then an hour later login from China, and 45 minutes later login from England. if you're really quite worried that you'll be visiting a few countries on a holiday you can email the pateam and let them know.

Or what if you and your gf live together, both play PA (like lone and gwyn) and do login from same IP and happen to attack together alot (since you're living together and attacking with friends isn't so odd) ...

it's a tough call.. but generally it's asked that you don't coordinate your attacks and defence together a lot. there are a lot of couples playing pa though and they don't get flagged for cheating. most of the ones who do just happen to have a 'cousin' or sibling that lives with them.... (not)

[Storebo]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

yup, that would help preventing cheating. Only problem is, what if they close you when you're on holiday and login from 3 different countries? I mean, it sounds suspicious eventhough you did nothing wrong yet they can delete you and you well ... you just had though luck, bye bye 15 euro's.

Or what if you and your gf live together, both play PA (like lone and gwyn) and do login from same IP and happen to attack together alot (since you're living together and attacking with friends isn't so odd) ...

these are just a few examples why that rule should be used to prevent cheating, but isn't really fair in reality.

nway, my 2 cents. IF they are proven guilty (if someone cheated then I think eventually you'll have hard proof) then they deserve to be deleted and even banned from the game (yet I've been told that's sadly not possible.

Do not make mistakes, I and/or FAnG are as disgusted from cheaters ruining this game as you are.

rgds Kj

U have examples of innocent people getting deleted in the past? And what is hard proof? What would u accept?

[SystemShock]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

Or what if you and your gf live together, both play PA (like lone and gwyn) and do login from same IP and happen to attack together alot (since you're living together and attacking with friends isn't so odd) ...

One way would be not to attack together. I know it's not fair but you can't have the cake and eat it too.

[SystemShock]

Originally Posted by Storebo

U have examples of innocent people getting deleted in the past? And what is hard proof? What would u accept?

Can't remember such a case myself. I think the Multihunters have been quite understanding in these cases. As long as the people involved were legit ofc.

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by SystemShock

One way would be not to attack together. I know it's not fair but you can't have the cake and eat it too.

yup, I was only giving a few examples of cases that might complicate things. I don't claim they happened in the past, nor that I experienced them before. But I'm sure there are several more situations that makes "delete without contacting the cheater" quite hard to use.

again, just my 2 cents.

To Storebo, hard proof is proof that everyone would consider valid enough to delete a planet on (and with everyone I mean both his friends as his enemies).I think most players are reasonable. If, like Aryn said, you got 5 logins from different countries without an hour, then it's safe to conclude he's sharing his account.

What would I accept? any decent back'd up evidence that a certain player cheated. I don't think I'm unfair or less reasonable to accept decent proof.

rgds Kj

[dabult]

7. We may terminate this Agreement (including your Account)
immediately and without notice if you breach this Agreement ..
..
.
18.
CHEATING

· All interaction between accounts from the same IP address
will be regarded as direct evidence towards cheating.

You are as a user allowed to access your account by means of
proxies / anonymizers and also to defend / attack with people
from the same IP as yourself. However, if any Game Administrator
perceives these actions to be related to cheating, the above
rules will be enough to warrant a closure(1).


Just a few loose parts of the USER AGREEMENT that EVERYBODY agrees to upon signing up for THE GAME it after all is. They could have made it a lot worse aswell, in another game i play they have a sacred rule number 1 that says. Only 1 account per computer is allowed, period. (sharing ip has nothing to do with thread yes i see that..just pointing it out to some.)
Furthermore the User agreement doesnt say anywhere that anybody has to show evidence at all.

http://jpaweb01.planetarion.com/signup.pl

(why do i keep replying :|)

[dabult]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

What would I accept? any decent back'd up evidence that a certain player cheated. I don't think I'm unfair or less reasonable to accept decent proof.

rgds Kj

Problem is you have already agreed to that nobody has to show you or anybody else any evidence at all upon closing.

Would it be fair enough? Yes.
Do the player has the right to see evidence? No.

[Tomkat]

Have the cheaters been removed from FAnG yet?

[Storebo]

Originally Posted by Tomkat

Have the cheaters been removed from FAnG yet?

Nah FAnG needs their confessions first.

[Yeggstry]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

Or what if you and your gf live together, both play PA (like lone and gwyn) and do login from same IP and happen to attack together alot (since you're living together and attacking with friends isn't so odd) ...

these are just a few examples why that rule should be used to prevent cheating, but isn't really fair in reality.

This is where, if you are clever, you actually go and speak to PATeam and tell them that you have concrete evidence that they live together

Example

genclay and RealJames both live at the same Address. Since they know quite a few of the PATeam they know this, but even so RJ still made sure with at least A2 (that I know of) that they wouldn't be closed for having the same IP. And since genclay is my girlfriend, I've been logging in to the same IP as well.

Also a couple of weeks ago, a group of Eclipse members met up and stayed over the weekend at their house (TomKat, Fork, and Chip^ and myself). RJ made sure that A2 knew that there would be 6 people logging on from that one IP address and that we wouldn't be closed.

OK, this is a bizarre situation, and yes people can lie etc. it might also have something to do with A2/Mit/Phil^ meeting RJ/genclay/me IRL at the i-events as well, so having a trust for one another is also important, I'm just stating this as a case where closure has been prevented. If PATeam had wanted evidence of us being at the same place we took plenty of photos that match their PAG photos.. (ok, me being a little naive perhaps). I'm sure this could be applied to the person going to 3 different countries on holiday, but then again those logins would be even spaced out, not within an hour or two between them...

At the end of the day, it comes down to trust, and if the PATeam decline the explanation then that's their decision, even if the explanation is true.

[Scorpio]

Originally Posted by Yeggstry

This is where, if you are clever, you actually go and speak to PATeam and tell them that you have concrete evidence that they live together

According to the principals of law etc, this is where PATeam has to prove they DON'T live together

[dabult]

Originally Posted by Scorpio

According to the principals of law etc, this is where PATeam has to prove they DON'T live together

Not according to the user agreement we all agree to ^_^

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by Tomkat

Have the cheaters been removed from FAnG yet?

Are the planets deleted ingame yet? Ifnot that they aren't 100% proved cheaters, if they were then PA-team would delete them.

Guys I really don't see the fuss in all this. Is it ely or eclipse fearing they will end up after us in ranks cause we kept cheaters? If they cheated, they will get deleted before the round ends. I give them a fair chance to explain themselves, if they can't and PA deletes them then your problem and mine are solved. Just because we don't get paranoid and kick anything that has ever been associated with cheat (whether rightly or wronly), doesn't mean we are less tollerant.

A murderer is only guilty when he had a trial and put in jail (or caught during the act, but that'll never happen in PA). I don't ask you pple to sympathise with them, but stop judging our ways of dealing with it.

Imo, all this is just another way you found to insult your enemies. Why? I don't know ...

rgds Kj

[Tomkat]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

Guys I really don't see the fuss in all this. Is it ely or eclipse fearing they will end up after us in ranks cause we kept cheaters?

There are a few reasons:
1. I'm fed up with trying to launch on FAnG planets who are closed, therefore losing my target (It has happened more than once...)
2. Some of the roids that planet has will have been taken from us. Which is quite insulting, if they used cheating to get them. It is depriving an Eclipse member of their rightful roids, and giving them away to a cheater who will now be deleted.
3. Cheating should be given a zero-tolerance, to show others how it is a bad thing to do, and noone should try it on.

THAT'S a few reasons why.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by Scorpio

According to the principals of law etc, this is where PATeam has to prove they DON'T live together

Surely that's down to their registration information (which they entered correctly and honestly in line with the UELA). If they've not entered their details correctly then that is also potential grounds for deletion.

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by Tomkat

There are a few reasons:
1. I'm fed up with trying to launch on FAnG planets who are closed, therefore losing my target (It has happened more than once...)

Guess you gotta stop launching on the same planets over and over again then, eh?

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by Tomkat

There are a few reasons:
1. I'm fed up with trying to launch on FAnG planets who are closed, therefore losing my target (It has happened more than once...)
2. Some of the roids that planet has will have been taken from us. Which is quite insulting, if they used cheating to get them. It is depriving an Eclipse member of their rightful roids, and giving them away to a cheater who will now be deleted.
3. Cheating should be given a zero-tolerance, to show others how it is a bad thing to do, and noone should try it on.

THAT'S a few reasons why.

Cheating is given zero tollerance. When will you FINALLY start understanding that CHEAT = DELETED and SUSPECTED = CLOSED. That's how I see it, that's how it'll happen in FAnG. Whether I kick them now or in 2 weeks IF they get deleted doesn't change the smallest shit for you.

You, as eclipse have members that cheated in the past aswell (lockhead) so according to your own theory, you don't have zero tollerance either.

Stop blaming this on FAnG, stop posting shit about it, stop thinking the HC are supporting cheaters, stop blaming the fact that they cheated on the HC.

I don't like this any more then you do, and before you start jumping the wagon (that's what this is, one posts, all the rest jumps on it saying the same shit over and over and over again) start looking at your own alliance, you ALLIES (warden) etc before you take the easy road, which is jumping at your enemies.

Let's just drop this convo, we both know the facts, not a DAMN thing you or I can do about it so I don't see why pple make all this fuss about it.

rgds Kj

[SystemShock]

Originally Posted by Rumad

tomkat

2. All alliances have cheaters who take roids off others. I have no doubt that eclipse has members that cheat, but without solid proof have yet to be deleted.

Or closed. Nice try to turn it around Rumad.

Just for the record, we have 0 members who are closed.

[Yeggstry]

Originally Posted by Scorpio

According to the principals of law etc, this is where PATeam has to prove they DON'T live together

Then again if it is shown that two accounts are signed up on the same address there should be steps to ensure that this is checked before the person gets out of protection (in theory) hence not causing the rest of the universe any inconvienience.

[SystemShock]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

You, as eclipse have members that cheated in the past aswell (lockhead) so according to your own theory, you don't have zero tollerance either.

....

I don't like this any more then you do, and before you start jumping the wagon (that's what this is, one posts, all the rest jumps on it saying the same shit over and over and over again) start looking at your own alliance, you ALLIES (warden) etc before you take the easy road, which is jumping at your enemies.

Did you report Lockhead for cheating?

I can't stop Kj, your replies are the only thing on these boards that I can laugh at.

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by SystemShock

Did you report Lockhead for cheating?

I can't stop Kj, your replies are the only thing on these boards that I can laugh at.

ask yourself, did I know he was cheating?

but I see, once again you fall into your old habbits ...

If you can't have a decent discussion, then please to world with NOT talking, I atleast try not to flame, insult, insinuate every time I post on AD.

rgds Kj

[mens]

oh it looks like someone just got opened again..

[Colt]

oi oi

/me fluffl3s mens

[mjrTorspo]

Originally Posted by mens

oh it looks like someone just got opened again..

even a top10 planet that was said to be a clear cheat(multiple farm accs) by fang hc itself..

cant build a strong house out of soft bricks.

edit: giving them resources too from the whole time is just wrong, 2weeks vacation mode with full roids income?

[zerocore]

Killing EET is like washing a pig. Turn your back for a second, and the filth is back.

[mens]

Originally Posted by mjrTorspo

edit: giving them resources too from the whole time is just wrong, 2weeks vacation mode with full roids income?

I kinda agree.

[Mitre]

Originally Posted by mens

I kinda agree.

Nah you are afraid of smth else

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by mjrTorspo

edit: giving them resources too from the whole time is just wrong, 2weeks vacation mode with full roids income?

I understand what you mean.. but as they were opened again they're innocence were proven. So why should they not have their resources? They don't lose anything, only the roids they could have gotten meanwhile.

[Scorpio]

Originally Posted by dabult

Not according to the user agreement we all agree to ^_^

You know, I've honestly never read that thing, lol

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by mjrTorspo

even a top10 planet that was said to be a clear cheat(multiple farm accs) by fang hc itself..

cant build a strong house out of soft bricks.

edit: giving them resources too from the whole time is just wrong, 2weeks vacation mode with full roids income?

see that's what I mean with hypocrits. If someone gets closed then you believe PA team's judgement was good. When he gets re-opened later then suddenly PA team are noobs ...

And which Hc said they were cheaters? plz tell me

rgds Kj

[Colt]

Originally Posted by LEFF|pm

Zerocore (19:2:9) will have a conversation with phil^ wednesday, since he seems to be the only one who actually did play against the rules. He and 2 other planets outside FAnG got very high fleet correlations ( ...means: fleets launched and recalled simultaneusly very many times), flagged by the DB. This is a very strong indication of having multiple accounts. Depending on the outcome of the meeting today he will either get kicked or get reopend.

i think he means this, tho LEFF resigned?

[Stifler]

Originally Posted by Nadar

I understand what you mean.. but as they were opened again they're innocence were proven. So why should they not have their resources? They don't lose anything, only the roids they could have gotten meanwhile.

their roids were also 'protected' during this period

when you set your account in vacation [previous rounds] you didn't get the resources back when you got home, you had to live with it. The fact that they were accused of cheating there must have been a reason and they should just live with it and the fact that their roids were 'protected' should be enough

[SpazMonster]

LOL ssdd.

I had to come back to prove it to myself tho

[mjrTorspo]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

see that's what I mean with hypocrits. If someone gets closed then you believe PA team's judgement was good. When he gets re-opened later then suddenly PA team are noobs ...

And which Hc said they were cheaters? plz tell me

rgds Kj

was LEFF (thanks for the quote Colt, couldnt be arsed to find it myself) But since he wasnt a FanG HC at the time of that quote(stepped down a day before?) i gues he's comment doesnt hold any value anymore.. You're right as always Kjeldoran

Hypocrits how exatcly? I seem to remember a certain FanG HC who told ely to kick a member with no proof at all(irc logs which you also failed to show..) and then later stating "i gues this is the way elysium want to play this game" since he wasnt removed from ely the next day. Funny thing is he was never even suspected, or closed and certainly not deleted from the game(only way to get removed from FanG it seems..)

and that all was from PM's with you so i cant prove it(even with logs which could be faked).. so that means it never happened right?



*insert some comment here for others to tackle themselves into so the rest of the post can be ignored* -will add it later no time now

[LEFF|pm]

Originally Posted by Stifler

their roids were also 'protected' during this period

when you set your account in vacation [previous rounds] you didn't get the resources back when you got home, you had to live with it. The fact that they were accused of cheating there must have been a reason and they should just live with it and the fact that their roids were 'protected' should be enough

well... if you like to be "protected" just ask pa crew to close your 10 biggest planets for a week. I could live with it, since according to you we had this unfair advantage as well

I seriously doubt you would manage to survive the first night without their defence fleets.

...einfach mal die fresse halten wenn man keine ahnung hat fs :/