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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 16:28   #1
Storebo
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FAnG/Dragon cheaters

So where they opened up again?
Can't see the score disapearing from the ingame ranking.
Any news about it, or FAnG/Dragons gonna wait 2 weeks until the planets are actually deleted?
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 16:46   #2
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

they arent deleted ingame till yet. FAnG HC didnt kick this closed planets ingame till yet.
they would have to kick 13 planets and loose 25k roids and some millions of score when they are deleted or kicked. I guess they still hope the planets become re-opened.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 16:52   #3
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

why doesn't mrbrick or anyone with the right tools just delete them from uni? and possibly close the coords for new exilers.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 16:58   #4
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by mens
why doesn't mrbrick or anyone with the right tools just delete them from uni? and possibly close the coords for new exilers.
There is probably some policy thing that says they have to be closed but reopenable for a certain period in case they are proven innocent. The did after all pay money etc.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 18:03   #5
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

walken isnt deleted yet either....
and i would like to know how you get to 13 planets...
but well counting never was your strength, neither now nor when your planets were closed
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 18:09   #6
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei~
walken isnt deleted yet either....
and i would like to know how you get to 13 planets...
but well counting never was your strength, neither now nor when your planets were closed
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 18:37   #7
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by mens
why doesn't mrbrick or anyone with the right tools just delete them from uni? and possibly close the coords for new exilers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddix
There is probably some policy thing that says they have to be closed but reopenable for a certain period in case they are proven innocent. The did after all pay money etc.
I would post something in this thread to answer mens' question, but Maddix has already covered it :-)
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 18:41   #8
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

another thread that ends up with a slanging match i predict )

/me waits for kj
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 20:09   #9
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2
but Maddix has already covered it :-)
yeah, he's very clever
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 20:16   #10
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
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yeah, he's very clever
/me giggles
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 20:22   #11
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

/me joins flaming tha cheaters ....
-_-

lets think of something new in AD plz ....
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 20:31   #12
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei~
walken isnt deleted yet either....
and i would like to know how you get to 13 planets...
but well counting never was your strength, neither now nor when your planets were closed
Although there are around 12 'fang-friendly' planets closed, not all of them are added ingame. This could hint as to why they are closed, some planets being much smaller than others...
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 20:44   #13
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

as LEFF has said before, evidence needs to be shown to the owners of the closed planets before they can be deleted (i dont believe it has yet...)

not 100% sure though.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 20:51   #14
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnie
as LEFF has said before, evidence needs to be shown to the owners of the closed planets before they can be deleted (i dont believe it has yet...)

not 100% sure though.
No it doesn't. A reason for closure is all that is needed, in order to comply with the UA.
It's not a public-court, there is no jury-system. If MrB (or other admin) decides there is enough evidence to close a planet, they do so.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 21:08   #15
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
No it doesn't. A reason for closure is all that is needed, in order to comply with the UA.
It's not a public-court, there is no jury-system. If MrB (or other admin) decides there is enough evidence to close a planet, they do so.
You'd be correct, if Ronnie was talking about "closure" instead of "deletion"
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 21:17   #16
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

I stand by what I've said. Where does it say you have the right to see evidence against you?
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 21:44   #17
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

they can't show all evidence or people would find better ways to cheat and beat the system. they do tell you why though, like 'account sharing', etc. like i said before though, it's upto the person in question to tell their friends or not.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 21:57   #18
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Storebo: Are you sure its only Fang and Dragons cheating?
just a retorical question
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 22:00   #19
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Nice provocation storebo.

Although I think touching the subject "cheating" especially for elysium propagandism is like entering unreasonably hazardous terrain, you will get one short and clear statement.

Would your interest in this be open and above board you could have easily talked to me on irc or just read what I posted last in the FAnG situation - thread, just btw....

Kaifux, bleen, waku, tamsus, monk, cezar and zerocore are closed since 7 days now.
Until now, pa crew has not been able to either support us with decent informations about the reasons they got closed, nor - and that is nearly absurd - do actually know who did close the planets.

Only exeption is Phil^ who more or less unhesitating provided us with some information.

Zerocore (19:2:9) will have a conversation with phil^ wednesday, since he seems to be the only one who actually did play against the rules. He and 2 other planets outside FAnG got very high fleet correlations ( ...means: fleets launched and recalled simultaneusly very many times), flagged by the DB. This is a very strong indication of having multiple accounts. Depending on the outcome of the meeting today he will either get kicked or get reopend.

Concerning the other planets no evidences exist yet. Nether did they receive a mail giving any reasons for them being closed like mentioned in the user agreement , nor have our attempts to find out more about this been answered. After 5 days of waiting waku and kaifux already quit, and the others are not on private channels anymore as well...

We talked someone from #support (not involved in the closings) into checking their accounts for noticeable problems, but he wasnt able to find anything, still refused to reopen anyone, because he as well did not know who and what for they actually got closed...

Hopefully I was able to satisfy your curiosity
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 22:57   #20
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

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[quote]

iirc storebo&co left ely to form a new alliance after r7 and to my information (correct me if im outdated) he hasnt been involved with ely since back then. so where is ur point with elysium propaganda ?
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 23:17   #21
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

ex-LDK?

heh
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 23:26   #22
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Lets get a few things straight leff.
1) If i thought he was playing by the rules he wouldnt have been closed in the first place

2) The facts as you have them appear to have been relayed from zerocore.

3) i never set any specific meeting for me and zerocore. wednesday was a guess as to how long as i was prepared to wait for the guy to contact me again

4) ofc your requests for info wont be answered. hunters only discuss facts of case with the planet involved
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 23:34   #23
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Olrik
iirc storebo&co left ely to form a new alliance after r7 and to my information (correct me if im outdated) he hasnt been involved with ely since back then. so where is ur point with elysium propaganda ?
he's back
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 23:39   #24
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei~
walken isnt deleted yet either....
and i would like to know how you get to 13 planets...
but well counting never was your strength, neither now nor when your planets were closed
last i heard he was still closed. i do wish for him to be reopened tho. and i know ely removed the closed planets from ingame alliance. They are still dear friends of many in elysium and i'm sure that should they be reopened they would be let in again, not up to me ofcourse. But I suggest other alliances do the same. While theese planets are closed they should not appear on the alliance ranking, since they are not functioning members of that alliance anyway. They are frozen.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 23:46   #25
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

i was gonna reply.. but phil already did.
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Unread 24 Nov 2003, 23:58   #26
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Storebo: Are you sure its only Fang and Dragons cheating?
just a retorical question
Dunno.. but FAnG was very concerning about having Elysium deal with our cheaters. So I dunno why we should show them any special concerns.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 00:02   #27
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters


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[Storebo ]
Quote:

iirc storebo&co left ely to form a new alliance after r7 and to my information (correct me if im outdated) he hasnt been involved with ely since back then. so where is ur point with elysium propaganda ?
They accepted me back.. But I'm just trying to help FAnG do the right thing ofcourse. They where so concerned with taking the anti cheater stand earlier, so they don't deserve any special case.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 00:05   #28
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Kjeldorkan is in charge of FaNGu expect HIM to kick cheaters? lol
 
Unread 25 Nov 2003, 00:09   #29
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEFF|pm
Would your interest in this be open and above board you could have easily talked to me on irc or just read what I posted last in the FAnG situation - thread, just btw....
Well.. the thread have kinda died out... so many posts, that people start to loose interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEFF|pm
Concerning the other planets no evidences exist yet. Nether did they receive a mail giving any reasons for them being closed like mentioned in the user agreement , nor have our attempts to find out more about this been answered. After 5 days of waiting waku and kaifux already quit, and the others are not on private channels anymore as well...
Waku and Kaifux giving up could be seen as they know they are guilty.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 00:10   #30
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnought
Kjeldorkan is in charge of FaNGu expect HIM to kick cheaters? lol
When others cheat Kj tells great stories about how he'll kick any cheater he finds in his own ally and how others should do the same. But seems without the cheaters all coming on ad and admitting their guilt it isn't good enough evidence for old Kj..
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 00:11   #31
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev
/me giggles
Bastardo!
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 00:45   #32
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnought
Kjeldorkan is in charge of FaNGu expect HIM to kick cheaters? lol
This is hard for me but Dread said it the best.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 01:31   #33
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryn
i was gonna reply.. but phil already did.
ok
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 02:18   #34
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storebo
Dunno.. but FAnG was very concerning about having Elysium deal with our cheaters. So I dunno why we should show them any special concerns.
And we are still waiting for Ely's response to Walken.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 02:40   #35
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
And we are still waiting for Ely's response to Walken.
Racer mentioned that in the other thread.. He said Elysium kicked them. Walken was removed from ingame alliance. And he suggested FAnG to do the same.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 02:43   #36
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Nice to see racer changed his mind from the HC-conferance with MrBrick.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 02:52   #37
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Nice to see racer changed his mind from the HC-conferance with MrBrick.
Is also about accepting facts and not hiding real score behind closed members.
Walken was closed no matter if ely says it's okey or not.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 03:41   #38
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

but there is a slight difference to the fang ppl:
while there was tons of evidence on the walken case...we havent yet been shown evidence of the fang ppl.

to whichever multihunter it was that said that you dont give the prove away beacuse it would making cheating to easy... ill use those methods in court from now on..."sorry i cant give the prove to the court it would make it too easy for all the other criminals to do crimes unsuspected"....and ppl can only defend themselves if they know whats being held against em (thats called the right for a fair court)...so i have to say i find your rules from a law point of view plainly stupid and also against international law in some weird way tho i couldnt sue you i guess....

and now storebo my dearest could you plz try and pull your twentyfive thoughts together and make one post out of it instead of posting every thought on its own.

all in all boring thread nothing new said should have used the other thread and btw do you know what was so good bout this other thread? THAT IT RESTED...

[added grammar]
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 04:12   #39
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei~
but there is a slight difference to the fang ppl:
while there was tons of evidence on the walken case...we havent yet been shown evidence of the fang ppl.
Why should you need evidence?
They were deleted for cheating. If this had happened to an Eclipse, for example, you'd be screaming for us to remove them. The fact the creators and multihunters believe they cheated should be sufficient for you.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei~
to whichever multihunter it was that said that you dont give the prove away beacuse it would making cheating to easy... ill use those methods in court from now on..."sorry i cant give the prove to the court it would make it too easy for all the other criminals to do crimes unsuspected"
What? This isn't a court of law, it is a completely different set of circumstances. Just as different nations have different laws, PA does not have to abide by the same as your country. The user agreement that was accepted was broken, which is grounds for deletion.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei~
and now storebo my dearest could you plz try and pull your twentyfive thoughts together and make one post out of it instead of posting every thought on its own.
Oh dear, resorting to picking at people's posting styles? That's on the same level as picking on people's spelling, when you lose an argument.[/quote]




Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei~
[added grammar]
That's a joke, right?
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 05:50   #40
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

why should i need evidence?
ehm?
plz what?
well i study law this question really puzzles me...
for me someone is guilty when evidence is shown to me he is guilty and i can value this evidence as true. (i might lack the words in english for this babble)
or would you have believed hitler who said the jews are all guilty? i would have liked to see some evidence and oh so surprise there would have been none... maybe same applies here.

well i was not asking to use some specific law here i was just trying to enforce some logical thinking but with intelectual highlights like you we wont reach a philosophy talk soon here...

and being annoyed that storebo has to fill his thread with twenty single posts instead of one bigger doesnt meant i insult his posting style. i just find it somehow attentionseeking.

and now be honest for a sec tomkat if this happened to you would you wanna know evidence if you thought/knew you werent guilty? i got no idea if they are guilty etc... but a multihunter saying we dont have to show the evidence is going against the last bits of sense i got at these unfriendly hours...

and you can do comments on posting style better than me so i wont even bother to compete with you in that
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 06:00   #41
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

ok i don't know how to spell this out for you people to understand. planet closures are between the multihunter crew and the planet in question. the crew WILL NOT give out information to anyone else. if the planet in question lies and says he got closed because he hates bananas, it's your problem if you believe it. if the planet lies and says they haven't discussed anything with pateam, well what are we to do? call them a liar and post the logs? no, i don't think so.

lei to clear some confusion, i meant more they won't give evidence as to how the cheater was caught, just the reason for it. example you accountshared, your planet has logged in from 5 different countries in the past 2 days.

though i can't really talk much about it cause i'm not on the multihunter team and i don't really know how it all works.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 09:34   #42
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storebo
last i heard he was still closed. i do wish for him to be reopened tho. and i know ely removed the closed planets from ingame alliance. They are still dear friends of many in elysium and i'm sure that should they be reopened they would be let in again, not up to me ofcourse. But I suggest other alliances do the same. While theese planets are closed they should not appear on the alliance ranking, since they are not functioning members of that alliance anyway. They are frozen.
So now you are saying he should simply be re-opened and allowed back into Elysium?

I'm sorry but surely that means that Ely condone cheating? (<<<This is IF they were to allow him back) So, if he didn't have an alliance in the first place he shouldn't be re-opened because he 'has no friends' in alliances?

Last edited by Shaithess; 25 Nov 2003 at 09:50.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 09:43   #43
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnought
Kjeldorkan is in charge of FaNGu expect HIM to kick cheaters? lol
And Dreadn00b can't spell
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 10:02   #44
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei~
to whichever multihunter it was that said that you dont give the prove away beacuse it would making cheating to easy... ill use those methods in court from now on..."sorry i cant give the prove to the court it would make it too easy for all the other criminals to do crimes unsuspected"....and ppl can only defend themselves if they know whats being held against em (thats called the right for a fair court)...so i have to say i find your rules from a law point of view plainly stupid and also against international law in some weird way tho i couldnt sue you i guess....
The difference is that in real life people are accused and sentenced by their peers who are as inherently untrustworthy as themselves. The open court system increases, as much as is reasonably possible, the number of people who must coloborate to (intentionally) wrongly convict someone.

PA is entirely different, Jolt/PA Team own and run the game and their desicion is final so long as they abide by the user agreement (and the small number of legal rights we have which can't be given up by such an agreement).

"Once an account has been found guilty of cheating the account
will be closed(1). The owner of the account will be sent an
automated message briefly stating the reason for the closure
and will be given the opportunity to reply to this message to
appeal the decision."

Nowhere does it say evidence will be given to the accused, or to the public, only a brief automated message (presumably citing 'Account Sharing', 'Farming' etc...). It doesn't even say PA Team have to reply to any appeal, it just gives you a chance to give them any evidence they might not have considered initially. On the otherhand if you really thought you were wrongly closed you could appeal in a real life court the issue of whether you broke the UA or not. At that point PA Team would have to release sufficient evidence to prove that you did (and it'd be interesting to see if they had a trustworthy audit trail to support the evidence). But please noone do this or you'll surely destroy PA with legal fees :/
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 12:09   #45
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Darn, all 3 top 100 planets in my gal's closed
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 12:29   #46
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 13:20   #47
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei~
and i would like to know how you get to 13 planets...
No it was 15 Fang alone....
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 13:54   #48
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaithess
So now you are saying he should simply be re-opened and allowed back into Elysium?

I'm sorry but surely that means that Ely condone cheating? (<<<This is IF they were to allow him back) So, if he didn't have an alliance in the first place he shouldn't be re-opened because he 'has no friends' in alliances?
If they opened him up it would mean pateam would admitt that this was partly their fault for not takeing care of this problem allready in the beta. And that Walken wasn't cheating. I'm nothing but a member of Elysium so don't take my suggestions as a policy of Elysium. Having half your alliance know your login information is worse then abusing a bug imo.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 13:56   #49
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei~
....
Evidence can be hold back for a number of reasons. Maybe to avoid revealing an informant. In the real world there are full of cases where people don't dare to testify against others cause of what might happen afterwards.
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Unread 25 Nov 2003, 15:22   #50
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Re: FAnG/Dragon cheaters

funny thread so far, wasnt it that a cheater should be dealt with in a 4 eye talk with the multihunter after receiving an automatic email saying he got closed for §XXX violation of the gamerules?
I have not seen in the past other ppl getting anywhere with demanding informations about the closures and i doubt i will now.
So infact all the hot air about "going to support and letting the cow fly to get some insight" is senseless like to claim the poor cheaters (15 of them cought in a short time) are all innocent and were not informed.

Points for that could be many, like "yes the automated system failed because mailserver was down" or "the accoutowner provided a not working email" or "he lied" all of above dont really matter since the case will be dealt with in private anyways and i dont see how ppl dare to demand a clear information of private and closed information.
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