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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 11:34   #1
midge5
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Purposefully disabling your child

So I just read http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/justic...-200803131049/.

It essentially criticises the government for

Quote:
Persons or embryos that are known to have a gene, chromosome or mitochondrion abnormality involving a significant risk that a person with the abnormality will have or develop a serious physical or mental disability, a serious illness or any other serious medical condition must not be preferred to those that are not known to have such an abnormality.
saying that people should be allowed to choose their embryo if they are fully aware of the consequences.

Now while I would normally be in favour of allowing people to do what they want something about this doesn't sit right with me. In their example it refers to a couple who tried for a deaf child. Maybe I just find it wrong because I imagine being deaf harder than it actually is, but I would never purposefully give my children haemophilia like I have, and I would guess that is far easier to live with.

If they wanted to make themselves deaf then fair enough, but to do it to someone else just feels wrong.
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 12:39   #2
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

why in gods name would people wish disabilities on children? Its bad enough forcing religion on them...but this?! It's morally, physically and ethically wrong
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 12:44   #3
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

It's seems obvious that some people need to have government intervention in their lives. That bill is the right thing to do in my opinion but it also needs to be more defined as to what constitutes an abnormality. The movie Gattica come to mind where we could end up with a society based on your genes instead of heritage and ability.
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 13:01   #4
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

Quote:
Originally Posted by midge5
I would never purposefully give me children haemophilia like I have

Ahhh nevermind. I can't even bring myself to typing what i was going to. You, all of you, you got lucky Punks!
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 13:21   #5
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

The choice of embryo is immaterial in my opinion. What matters is if the parents are able to give the child an environment where he or she can enjoy life.
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 13:50   #6
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

I feel that it is wrong to inflict needless suffering upon others. As such, abnormal embryos, or embryos with high probabilities to result in abnormal children, should be discouraged. Ultimately, no matter how caring and sharing you as a parent are, your child/ren dont just interact with you. They go to school, they will go out into the workforce and meet strangers socially.

Its cruel to inflict that kind of misery upon someone unnecessarily.
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 14:17   #7
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

Whilst I don't agree with purposely creating disabled children and would seriously question the mental health of anyone wanting to do so, there are some other considerations.

With the development of genetic engineering (admittedly still some years away) there does seem to be a question of what constitutes a mental or physical abnormality.

The BBC article mentions skin colour as bringing disadvantages, if this is true should this be banned as well? On a less, extreme measure, what about ginger people?

It is also possible (although, how likely I don't know) that banning the creation of such embryos will increase discrimination against those who have such abnormalities. I'm thinking particularly with reference to genetic engineering which (in the US, possibly in the UK) will probably be incredibly expensive. Not only will a disability be seen as a physical deformity, it will also be seen as a social one, which could possibly create another barrier to class mobility.

To take the argument to an Orwellian extreme, what about mental disabilities? Will a tendancy towards compassion be considered abnormal and a barrier to the perfect working of the neo-liberal market?

Purposely having a deaf baby is stupid. If both parents were deaf, then maybe there might be more of an argument in favour of it but in this situation, no.
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 15:25   #8
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Purposely having a deaf baby is stupid. If both parents were deaf, then maybe there might be more of an argument in favour of it but in this situation, no.
im sure 2 deaf parents would no doubt not want their child to have the same restrictions as they did. Same as blind people not wishing it on their own kid. Its just another way for people to cock up an already deteriorating world. File this away under D for deluded. Just like the celebrities adopting foreign children for PR or disabled children because they think its "the right thing to do"
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 19:38   #9
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The movie Gattica come to mind where we could end up with a society based on your genes instead of heritage
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 21:29   #10
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Purposely having a deaf baby is stupid. If both parents were deaf, then maybe there might be more of an argument in favour of it but in this situation, no.
No there ****ing won't be. Intentionally creating a disabled child is immoral and wrong. How does having two deaf parents make anything better? It's the child that matters, not the parents' feelings.
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 21:46   #11
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No there ****ing won't be. Intentionally creating a disabled child is immoral and wrong. How does having two deaf parents make anything better? It's the child that matters, not the parents' feelings.
I think that very much depends upon your view of what a child is.

Now I may well think that a child is a cost sink future citizen. An expense worth paying. I may feel inclined to indulge it, more likely indulge it's parents in some tabloid inspired fantasy as long as at the end of it I get a citizen who will work toward the benefit of it's fellow citizens.

But supposing my view is evil? Why not view a child as a product of love. Its fate and ultimate purpose devoid of worry about what the state is. Perhaps fantasise that the child might actually create a new state, or even a new utopia. With such a view words such as 'disabled' have no meaning. Deafness is a perfect example. Do we truly need to hear? And regardless of the answer to that question should we not be asking these questions? Is this whole argument nothing more than a move from our race being the passive victims of evolution toward joining with it?

As gods can tell - I care very very little about this.

Let us avoid sensationalism.
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Unread 13 Mar 2008, 23:06   #12
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

Maybe yahwe is on to something. Take myself, I would love to not hear some of my more annoying pupils!
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Unread 14 Mar 2008, 19:46   #13
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I think that very much depends upon your view of what a child is.

Now I may well think that a child is a cost sink future citizen. An expense worth paying. I may feel inclined to indulge it, more likely indulge it's parents in some tabloid inspired fantasy as long as at the end of it I get a citizen who will work toward the benefit of it's fellow citizens.

But supposing my view is evil? Why not view a child as a product of love. Its fate and ultimate purpose devoid of worry about what the state is. Perhaps fantasise that the child might actually create a new state, or even a new utopia. With such a view words such as 'disabled' have no meaning. Deafness is a perfect example. Do we truly need to hear? And regardless of the answer to that question should we not be asking these questions? Is this whole argument nothing more than a move from our race being the passive victims of evolution toward joining with it?

As gods can tell - I care very very little about this.

Let us avoid sensationalism.
No, you're wrong.


A child may be the creation of other human beings but that doesn't mean that those human beings should have complete control over its existence. If they mistreat that child, the child is taken away from them as they are unfit parents. That child has a right not to be mistreated.


A simple question for you and ASG to answer:


Is it acceptable for parents (or, in fact, anyone) to intentionally deafen their child?

If it's not acceptable to do it while that child is alive, why is it ok to design them to be deaf?
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Unread 14 Mar 2008, 20:17   #14
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

This is a rather shocking topic. Most parents are of mind to want the best for their children, to make life easier than it was for them... How wanting a deaf child meets that goal I don't know.

In regards to the two deaf parents wanting a deaf child scenario, I think that is also ridiculous... they should want the same as any other parent, and even though they know first hand how 'possible' it is to live on whilst deaf i do not understand how they would want a deaf child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yahwe
I think that very much depends upon your view of what a child is.
Regardless how you view or define your child, he/she is still a human being protected by human rights... like in the news recently of a 15 year old raped and murdered, the mother is taken to court for negligence, reason being she did not create a safe environment for her daughter.. looking at it this way, how is making your child born deaf a safe enviroment, kids need a lot of attention and looking after, deaf kids need a hell of a lot more, they cannot hear and get scared of loud noises (which incidentally may be a car or something else equally as devastating to a humans life)
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Unread 14 Mar 2008, 20:45   #15
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

Thanks to technology like the Cochlear implant a child born deaf by his or her parents hand could later choose to hear. How's that for a rebelious teen or young adult?
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Unread 15 Mar 2008, 11:23   #16
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No there ****ing won't be. Intentionally creating a disabled child is immoral and wrong. How does having two deaf parents make anything better? It's the child that matters, not the parents' feelings.
It could be argued that a deaf child would form a closer bond with his/her parents. This bond over the common factor of being deaf may create a more stable loving environment for the child who would grow up to be a happier, more well-adjusted member of society.

On the other hand, a child who can hear but has deaf parents may feel resentful for their disability and possibly having to do things for them. It may also become an area for constant bullying, which would make the child more resentful of his parents, leading the child to be miserable and socially mal-adjusted.
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Unread 15 Mar 2008, 11:32   #17
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No, you're wrong.


A child may be the creation of other human beings but that doesn't mean that those human beings should have complete control over its existence. If they mistreat that child, the child is taken away from them as they are unfit parents. That child has a right not to be mistreated.


A simple question for you and ASG to answer:


Is it acceptable for parents (or, in fact, anyone) to intentionally deafen their child?

If it's not acceptable to do it while that child is alive, why is it ok to design them to be deaf?
a) I can not be 'wrong' as I was not proposing an argument. I was setting out two contradictory points and asking you to not sensationalise and to start thinking.

b) the whole point is that the question is not simple so stop trying to believe it is.

:sigh:
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Unread 15 Mar 2008, 16:28   #18
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

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Originally Posted by [FC]Imperial
i do not understand
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Unread 17 Mar 2008, 10:39   #19
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child

Quote:
Originally Posted by [FC]Imperial
Regardless how you view or define your child, he/she is still a human being protected by human rights... like in the news recently of a 15 year old raped and murdered, the mother is taken to court for negligence, reason being she did not create a safe environment for her daughter.. looking at it this way, how is making your child born deaf a safe enviroment, kids need a lot of attention and looking after, deaf kids need a hell of a lot more, they cannot hear and get scared of loud noises (which incidentally may be a car or something else equally as devastating to a humans life)
as much as it pains me to do so i have to agree. after Caring for disabled children for 6 years i know how hard it is to live as they do. They try hard but the parents don't have much say in the day to day activities as they grow up.. They're left with carers or voluntary groups because the parents can't cope.

If they're so interested in blindness why don't they blind themselves or deafen themselves. And when they refuse, ask them why. because lets face it, if they won't go through the same thing as they want their child to go through, then it can't be that good.
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