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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:04   #1
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Pay as you go - Motoring style

I simply cannot believe that anyone would even consider tabling such a hugely unpopular bill let alone talk about it publicly.

What are your feelings on this stupidity?

The plan to charge people upto £1.15 per mile at peak times on motorways......


There is no possible way i can stay in this country should this actually go ahead. It would be the last and final straw for a country that just seems to keel over and say 'go on then you do what you want mr.government'

How ****ing dare they CHARGE US PER MILE. IF i want to travel from one end of the country to the other side i already get clobbered on fuel costs. Now they want to cut those down and charge per mile instead?!

This country has gone ****ing insane. Congestion charges...fair enough. In a busy city it has helped to cut down traffic and has pushed more people onto the relatively decent public transport system (the London tube is pretty good. dirty but pretty good)

Its just another 'lets target the motorist because its an easy target'.


Goddamn it makes me so ****ing angry.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:11   #2
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

This bill looks like being about as popular as a trip to the dentist for major bridgework.
There's no way it will ever get passed, and if it did the lords would chuck it out. I really don't think Blair would try and use the parliament act again, he has little enough respect (and majority) left as it is without eroding it further.

This is also my secret plan on avoiding ID cards.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:12   #3
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

i say get rid of road tax and increase petrol tax - that way you're kinda charged by the mile and it encourages people to buy efficient cars.

Fines for driving an SUV in cities without anyone in it should also be implemented.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:15   #4
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Don't be stupid ste, that's a sensible rational suggestion.
It'll never fly.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:18   #5
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

I see.
How about giving everyone their own personal jetpack? That would reduce congestion and save the country millions.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:19   #6
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Wuold be amusing having to pay £150 to travel home to see my parents.

The perfect excuse for not going i think.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:20   #7
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

I don't think it's really THAT stupid an idea.

It's not "targeting the easy target motorist", because they're also planning on abolishing the road tax and petrol duty. So instead of everyone having to pay £110+ a year, despite perhaps not using their car that much, they just pay for what they use.

If you use the road more than others, why shouldn't you be expected to pay more than others?

But let's be honest, as this scheme requires "A satellite tracking box must be placed in every car", what are the real chances of this happening?
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:22   #8
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

The thing with just adding the cost to fuel though, is that it penalises people who live in remote areas. They'll have to pay more, due to driving further, to get anywhere, and it will likely be on worse roads.

I don't think it's an inherently bad idea if it will encourage people not to drive so much.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:30   #9
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

I'm glad Messiah pointed this out, no more road tax and no more fuel tax. And fuel tax is bloody high- in Ireland its aroun 30-40% [UK can't be that much different...] Excellent idea- charge people for what they use.... what they consumer, etc.

And now, before you go make judgements perhaps we should work out how much you spend now, and how much you would spend under this scheme? I dunno how many litres you get to the mile, but post anyway and we shall work it out!
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:34   #10
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

It's not £1.15 for every mile, most in rural areas will be 2p. It's like fuel tax but aimed at removing congestion which is a good thing. An 'average' road user, if they set it right, will pay the same. Those adding to congestion will pay more (businesses will pay anyway and that's the main problem, increased costs etc) and those who don't add to congestion will pay less.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:46   #11
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

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Originally Posted by Thermodynamics
we should work out how much you spend now, and how much you would spend under this scheme? I dunno how many litres you get to the mile, but post anyway and we shall work it out!
Ok.

Currently the 150mile trip home costs ~£15-£18

I travel via M27/M3/M25/M11 as these are the most feasible routes.

These are all classed as busy motorways.

If they decided to charge ~£1 a mile for travelling on these motorways my costs would increase nearly ten-fold.

In fact unless they charged 10p a mile i'd lose out.

Not a bad way of earning money considering the journey only takes 2 hours.

Oh, btw catching a train home costs £35 and catching an excuisite National Coach thing costs £20 so driving is in fact cheaper atm.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:52   #12
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

I think you've proved the point quite well then.
Driving is currently cheaper, and so you choose to do it.
If you were faced with a £150 bill for driving, you would get the train/coach, removing a car from the road.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:55   #13
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

This is the problem.

I wouldnt. I would still choose a car over a bus or train even if the car was upto 10 quid more expensive for the trip simply because trains and buses are

a) full of shit people
b) smell
c) take an absolute eternity to get places
d) can not take me to my precise destination
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 11:56   #14
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

oh and im not alone in this.


The car is here to stay so why do they insist on making it difficult for people to use it?
why not embrace it


Motorists drive this shitty ass economy and they are the ones who are penalised and told they are 'evil hate mongers' for destroying the environment.....
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 12:07   #15
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodynamics
And fuel tax is bloody high- in Ireland its aroun 30-40% [UK can't be that much different...]
Isn't it like nearer 70% in the UK?
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 12:09   #16
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

I think smokers and drinkers play a part in "driving this shitty ass economy", nice pun btw.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 12:33   #17
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
Isn't it like nearer 70% in the UK?
I think it is jut over that, closer to 75%. Apparently though that would be abolished under this scheme so it would probably save me a lot of money as I generally only drive later at night and live in a fairly quiet spot.

Still not something I would particularly like though.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 12:34   #18
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phalon
Ok.

Currently the 150mile trip home costs ~£15-£18

I travel via M27/M3/M25/M11 as these are the most feasible routes.

These are all classed as busy motorways.

If they decided to charge ~£1 a mile for travelling on these motorways my costs would increase nearly ten-fold.

In fact unless they charged 10p a mile i'd lose out.

Not a bad way of earning money considering the journey only takes 2 hours.

Oh, btw catching a train home costs £35 and catching an excuisite National Coach thing costs £20 so driving is in fact cheaper atm.
This is the problem- you have to look at in a yearly context- sure that one journey might be more expensive, but think about it per annum- you pay 30% of the price for the petrol, and no road tax. The road tax alone cuts your 150-miles journey down to an acceptable level. Your calculation is slightly flawed in that respect. And also the time you might save on those motorways due to less congestion.

And 70% actually sounds correct to me sniborp, I just couldn't remember the figure.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 12:38   #19
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

I travel home from kent uni, I go along the m2, and halfway round the m25. It's approximately 100 miles, and it costs £10 quid (guess) in fuel. I can travel whenever, and with a few exceptions ive had no troubles going over 80 the whole journey. My question is, is time taken into consideration?
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 12:48   #20
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

The proposal is for mileage, but the black-box could well let people know if you're speeding

The insurance companies want to do pay-as-you-go as well, along the same kind of lines, so the reductions for people who do only drive off-peak, not very often, and in rural areas could really be quite high.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:04   #21
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
Originally Posted by JammyJim
oh and im not alone in this.


The car is here to stay so why do they insist on making it difficult for people to use it?
why not embrace it


Motorists drive this shitty ass economy and they are the ones who are penalised and told they are 'evil hate mongers' for destroying the environment.....
They don't embrace it because if they do the current infrastructure will reach complete deadlock in a couple of decades. Saying we motorists drive the economy is all very well, but if and when the roads reach a state where businesses can't get their goods efficiently to where they need to be, if efficiency starts to drop etc then the economy's not gonna be in a very good shape.

And yes, time will be taken into consideration. I know if I'm going to do a long journey, I time it to avoid rush hour. I don't want to be travelling long distances through rush hour traffic. This will just reinforce that. If you travel at peak times, you get charged more. Thus it makes sense to try and schedule your journeys during evenings/weekends, meaning you pay much less.

I should point out that I'm a driver, I hate public transport and I'll probably be much worse off under the new scheme. But anyone who denies it makes sense is just being blinded by the "THEY JUST WANT OUR MONEY" rage.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:13   #22
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Oh yeah, I thought he meant the time taken to complete the journey (i.e. thinking he would be charged less for speeding!)
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:14   #23
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

What exactly do they do for cars visiting from other countries in this situation?
Do they get the massively cheaper petrol, without paying the road fee?
If so, I'll transfer the registration of my car to France, get a French plate, slap a big "F" on the back and then save muchos, ta.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:20   #24
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
I think you've proved the point quite well then.
Driving is currently cheaper, and so you choose to do it.
If you were faced with a £150 bill for driving, you would get the train/coach, removing a car from the road.

Yea, i agree.

Though i'd prefer to drive for the reasons JJ suggested.

I enjoy driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodynamics
This is the problem- you have to look at in a yearly context- sure that one journey might be more expensive, but think about it per annum- you pay 30% of the price for the petrol, and no road tax. The road tax alone cuts your 150-miles journey down to an acceptable level. Your calculation is slightly flawed in that respect. And also the time you might save on those motorways due to less congestion.
Before i was at uni i was easily doing ~16k miles per year.

My dad does ~30k miles per year, almost all of those are the daily commute into London.

I agree the scheme makes sense on some (most) levels.

But charging people thousands upon thousands to drive is rediculous.

The only way i'd embrace it fully would be if they would drastically improve the busses/trains etc and greatly reduce their price.

And imo they'd need to improve those services before introducing this idea.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:23   #25
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

There's a slight problem with that though.... :|
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:26   #26
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

That may be.

But our public transport is easily up there with the worst in the civilised world.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:34   #27
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

When i used to travel 7miles to college on bus it took 45mins and cost me over £5 for a return. No joke.

Public transport is shite unless you live in a city.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:42   #28
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

What are the chances that if this goes ahead that somewhere down the line the government may try to privitise the road system?
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:42   #29
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

With Tony Blair in charge everything is possible It's still a cheap country to live in though, you don't have all the sick taxes we got in Norway
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:48   #30
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
Originally Posted by JammyJim
I simply cannot believe that anyone would even consider tabling such a hugely unpopular bill let alone talk about it publicly.

What are your feelings on this stupidity?

The plan to charge people upto £1.15 per mile at peak times on motorways......


There is no possible way i can stay in this country should this actually go ahead. It would be the last and final straw for a country that just seems to keel over and say 'go on then you do what you want mr.government'

How ****ing dare they CHARGE US PER MILE. IF i want to travel from one end of the country to the other side i already get clobbered on fuel costs. Now they want to cut those down and charge per mile instead?!

This country has gone ****ing insane. Congestion charges...fair enough. In a busy city it has helped to cut down traffic and has pushed more people onto the relatively decent public transport system (the London tube is pretty good. dirty but pretty good)

Its just another 'lets target the motorist because its an easy target'.


Goddamn it makes me so ****ing angry.

When something like this comes out, im always tempted to see what other meaures are being announced at the same time which would be equally controversial but in smaller circles.

A great way to mask an unpopular proposal is to leak an even more unpopular proposal at the same time, which can then be dropped after a few months.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:49   #31
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
With Tony Blair in charge everything is possible It's still a cheap country to live in though, you don't have all the sick taxes we got in Norway
I pay a total of 12% in Tax and NI combined. And thats about it
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:54   #32
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
I pay a total of 12% in Tax and NI combined. And thats about it
Is it really THAT low? Holy cow.. I think average in Norway is around 35%. What's NI btw?
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:55   #33
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

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Originally Posted by Nadar
Is it really THAT low? Holy cow.. I think average in Norway is around 35%. What's NI btw?
National Insurance

Basic rate of income tax here i think is 6% , or something equally non existant. Higher cost of living though.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:57   #34
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

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Originally Posted by Kurashima
National Insurance

Basic rate of income tax here i think is 6% , or something equally non existant. Higher cost of living though.
Higher cost of living? It's at least much cheaper compared to Norway. But then again, I think wages are quite different too, which is the only reason it's "liveable" over here.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 13:59   #35
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Nice rant JJ, but it's not hugely unpopular (or did you just mean with car-obsessed people and not the general public ). Threatening to leave the country reminded me of Bruno, Davidson and other 'Tory celebs' saying they'd do that if Labour got in, but the bastards are still here.

Even a pilot scheme is at least 5 years away, with full introduction at least 10 years, which will inevitably be far later as it's potentially a technological nightmare.

The government wants your money. They're not going to make the charge for going from one end of the country to the other so expensive that you don't go, now are they? They just want you to go at a different time of day to commercial traffic.

Where you should worry is the vagueness of a reduction, not removal, of fuel and car tax, and what the money raised will be spent on. Can you really see the government happy to take the same amount as they do now, and just be happy with reduced congestion when they can add a little, and eventually a lot as another stealth tax?

and how will they deal with the people who drive now with no licence and insurance etc who certainly won't be having satellite tracking fitted?
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 14:01   #36
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

I think the solution to congestion is...

More roads.
Less pointless roadworks done at peak times.
Less signs giving wrong info on motorways like "Two lanes up ahead closed" when there are not.


Problem solved.
Oh, and over 70s have a compulsary driving test every 3 years. This stops there slowness, increasing the speed the traffic moves at, and also stops them causing accidents.
Suppose we could ban female drivers too if we had to...
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 14:03   #37
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Let's hope it passes. then the government can track exactly where we are at all times and we will be safe, especially if it can be integrated with ID cards.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 14:05   #38
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

The m6 toll is a dream to drive. build more toll roads with no speed limits
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 14:06   #39
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-X
Can you really see the government happy to take the same amount as they do now, and just be happy with reduced congestion when they can add a little, and eventually a lot as another stealth tax?
Well, if they can monitor speed, just think how much they can make in speeding fines.

Quote:
and how will they deal with the people who drive now with no licence and insurance etc who certainly won't be having satellite tracking fitted?
I guess you have 'Guns' (like speed guns) that can 'shoot' a car and see if it relays a signal saying it has a box. If not, chase after them




Who is going to pay for the boxes though?
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 14:08   #40
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

the motorist
through taxation most likely
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 15:37   #41
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
Originally Posted by JammyJim
The m6 toll is a dream to drive. build more toll roads with no speed limits
That I agree with, however we haven't got enough space to build extra roads and if they made the M1 or the M25 a toll road they would be extremely hard to avoid. £1 for a journey down the M1 wouldn't be too bad though.

Public transport should be nationalised and fares should be lowered, this would allow less waste and more passangers would use them. Trains and coaches shouldn't cost obscene amounts.
Local councils should run the local bus services instead of private companies.
Get rid of road tax and increase petrol tax, that would improve efficiency of cars and noone would be able to avoid it.

Nadar - Kura lives on the Isle of Man which is a tax haven. that's why he pays so much less tax than the rest of us.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 16:43   #42
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Excellent idea. Im fed up of whining motorists. Please charge £20 a mile rather than £1.15 tho. Take a bus, take a train, take a coach. We're running out of oil, and you're destroying the earth. Thanks!
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 18:51   #43
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
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I simply cannot believe that anyone would even consider tabling such a hugely unpopular bill let alone talk about it publicly.
Its called 'Fking things up for brown out of spite'
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 19:44   #44
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

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Originally Posted by Ste
That I agree with, however we haven't got enough space to build extra roads and if they made the M1 or the M25 a toll road they would be extremely hard to avoid. £1 for a journey down the M1 wouldn't be too bad though.
If it was £1 it wouldn't make the slight bit of difference.

Quote:
Public transport should be nationalised and fares should be lowered, this would allow less waste and more passangers would use them. Trains and coaches shouldn't cost obscene amounts.
No, public transport should be abandoned.

Quote:
Local councils should run the local bus services instead of private companies.
Local council. Piss up. Brewery etc.

Quote:
Get rid of road tax and increase petrol tax, that would improve efficiency of cars and noone would be able to avoid it.
You could get a diesel and use the diesel that farmers use. That's duty free isn't it? Plus, you want to raise fuel duty?
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 19:53   #45
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

The easiest way to generate money would be to legalise all drugs, and tax them like we do smoking. It would reduce crime as well as improve the quality of drug people take, so less druggies would get bad shit.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 20:01   #46
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Public transport is given so much of an unfair press it's untrue.

In the past 3 years of me travelling cross country the service has improved beyond recognition (never cramped, far more punctual), for a relatively minor price hike. The only problem at the current time is that public transport can't cope with the extended capacity, and it still pays to use a car.

Quite honestly the private system is fine as it is, it's just that until the new companies got longer contracts, it didn't pay for them to stick in long term investment - now they've got it and lo and behold the good companies are rolling out shiny new stock throughout the network.

I'd abandon fuel duty for public transport (as is already done for airlines) and lower fares while upping profit margins and invest that money further in the network.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 20:14   #47
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Excellent idea. Im fed up of whining motorists. Please charge £20 a mile rather than £1.15 tho. Take a bus, take a train, take a coach. We're running out of oil, and you're destroying the earth. Thanks!
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 21:12   #48
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
You could get a diesel and use the diesel that farmers use. That's duty free isn't it? Plus, you want to raise fuel duty?
The diesel farmerse use is indeed duty free, however i believe it is also illegal for road use (with the exception of farm equipment).

The amount of duty on fuel is a joke, increasing it will only lead to another set of protests like last time.

Solution in theory is LPG hence the current deal where the government offer up tp £700 towards the cost of converting your car and this is duty free (but will it stay that way)
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 21:30   #49
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Exclamation Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

My only gripe with extorting motorists is that public transport is so hideously ****ing expensive and generally shit by comparison. If I had enough money to buy and run a car, then public transport could go **** itself.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 21:50   #50
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Re: Pay as you go - Motoring style

Public transport does me fine. In London at least it's definitely improved over the last few years (although the tube is still over-stretched, but there's no easy solution to that except putting on loads more buses).

On the matter at hand : Putting taxes on fuel does seem a more elegant solution than this nonsense tbh, especially since you'd be giving (more) incentive to switch to more efficient engines.
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