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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:05   #51
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

you didn't explain why the idea of performance related fees is a bad one, the money for the education is still coming in from those who do badly, so there's no problem there, or is this just you objecting to an opinion for no reason beyond the fact you like to disagree?
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:10   #52
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
you didn't explain why the idea of performance related fees is a bad one, the money for the education is still coming in from those who do badly, so there's no problem there, or is this just you objecting to an opinion for no reason beyond the fact you like to disagree?
it's hilariously stupid.

basic concept: only those who benefit pay.

your spin: only those who arse it up pay, whereas those who benefit pay nothing.


do you see why these two are not related?
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:12   #53
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Shame Mo didn't die while taking the Blairs to yet another holiday at the controls of her own plane.
Um, that's it.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:24   #54
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
it's hilariously stupid.

basic concept: only those who benefit pay.

your spin: only those who arse it up pay, whereas those who benefit pay nothing.


do you see why these two are not related?
I really don't see a problem with the people who do the best getting a free ride, these are the people we need in the country (and that are difficult to replace with forigners, eg MD's et all), and may give them an incentive to stay in the country (good place for clever children), I know this would mean people like yourself would pay more for their degree, but that is irrelevent.

Everyone benifits from these people doing well and staying here, so its only fair that they be given free education.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:31   #55
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
I really don't see a problem with the people who do the best getting a free ride, these are the people we need in the country (and that are difficult to replace with forigners, eg MD's et all), and may give them an incentive to stay in the country (good place for clever children), I know this would mean people like yourself would pay more for their degree, but that is irrelevent.

Everyone benifits from these people doing well and staying here, so its only fair that they be given free education.
listen. please listen.

The money still has to come from somewhere. The only way your proposal would achieve this would be to knock the graduate tax so high that it's a barrier to entry for all but the rich and the exceptionally - EXCEPTIONALLY - talented.

Thus, crippling the workforce by removing all the graduates.

Do you understand?
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:36   #56
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

I think I may have been a little vague, which would explain why you would think what you do about it, so here goes nothing:

The money comes in in the same way it does now, or mabie slightly higher fees, and at the end of the degree, if you get a first, you are given back the money that you paid in, if you get a 2:1 you are given back a small amount of money, if you get a 2:2 you are given back nothing, however if you fail or drop out you are required to pay some extra money.

This means that more money is coming in than before (when there were no fees), but still the best benifit from a free education.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:38   #57
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

As an added advantage, it would put an end to all of these idiots going to university just because they don't want to get a job, rather than because they need a degree or higher for the future.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:39   #58
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
basic concept: only those who benefit pay.
But that's a stupid concept.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:44   #59
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
however if you fail or drop out you are required to pay some extra money.
.
Why would you do this? If you drop out you cost less.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:45   #60
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
I think I may have been a little vague, which would explain why you would think what you do about it, so here goes nothing:

The money comes in in the same way it does now, or mabie slightly higher fees, and at the end of the degree, if you get a first, you are given back the money that you paid in, if you get a 2:1 you are given back a small amount of money, if you get a 2:2 you are given back nothing, however if you fail or drop out you are required to pay some extra money.

This means that more money is coming in than before (when there were no fees), but still the best benifit from a free education.
er, what?


do you understand how top-up fees work?


besides, why should we reward people for doing well at university? it's their own interests they're serving after all. besides, if they do well, they get a better job (and are more able to pay the fees )


please, please get over the idea that graduates are altruistic in their motives.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:45   #61
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHC
Why would you do this? If you drop out you cost less.
but the money you do cost was wasted, there was nothing gained from it in the way of a quailfication.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:47   #62
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
but the money you do cost was wasted, there was nothing gained from it in the way of a quailfication.
sometimes i marvel at this kind of logical disconnect. on this occasion it's merely tiresome.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:50   #63
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
why should we reward people for doing well at university? it's their own interests they're serving after all. besides, if they do well, they get a better job (and are more able to pay the fees )


please, please get over the idea that graduates are altruistic in their motives.
please stop posting.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:52   #64
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
do you understand how top-up fees work?
money goes from me to someone else. The idea is that the money the better students pay then goes from the tresury (or some other source of money) to that student.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
besides, why should we reward people for doing well at university? it's their own interests they're serving after all. besides, if they do well, they get a better job (and are more able to pay the fees )
I think it's just to reward intellegence and achievement and punish underachievement. It seems sort of fairer to me than everyone paying the same ammount (except the poor, who pay less/nothing), regardless of how good they are.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 17:59   #65
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
money goes from me to someone else. The idea is that the money the better students pay then goes from the tresury (or some other source of money) to that student.
what?

Quote:
I think it's just to reward intellegence and achievement and punish underachievement. It seems sort of fairer to me than everyone paying the same ammount (except the poor, who pay less/nothing), regardless of how good they are.
why do we need to reward achievement? isn't that what the labour market is about to do? surely providing support in the event of underachievement is a more noble goal...


and yahwe, make a point - and a point grounded in fact and logic rather than 1940s 'blitz spirit' romanticism - or **** off.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:05   #66
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
and yahwe, make a point - and a point grounded in fact and logic rather than 1940s 'blitz spirit' romanticism - or **** off.
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...1&postcount=32
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:06   #67
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

i don't recall ever suggesting i didn't have double standards
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:07   #68
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
what?
The government has money, they give some of that money to those I mentioned earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phang
why do we need to reward achievement? isn't that what the labour market is about to do? surely providing support in the event of underachievement is a more noble goal...
why should those who do not achieve recieve anything, they obviously not tried as hard over the duration of the course as those who achieve, or else they wouldn't have underachieved, this society already rewards lazyness to a far to great an extent with dole being dished out with no work required and other such handouts.
Money should be given to those who earned it through hard work on a degree.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:10   #69
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
and yahwe, make a point - and a point grounded in fact and logic rather than 1940s 'blitz spirit' romanticism - or **** off.
child you will remember who i am.

You had a shock yesterday,i sympathise: but you are not yet a failure. so stop spouting anti-intellectual clap trap. the sort of rubbish that the people who view themselves as failures dribble out from time to time before they get drunk and sink into depression and self loathing.

Intellectual study, training and development is tantamount to civilisation. the beneftis to a country are inconcievably great: in the economy, in social and moral development, in cultural memory, in art and the pursuit of arts, in beauraucratic efficiency, in healthcare and in the rule of law.
without it a country will suffer.

attacking those seeking it (with fees), when they are at their poorest and weakest is despicable. it is indicitive of short term thinking: scoring political points to the detriment of the future.

I will not tolerate any more from you.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:12   #70
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

How on earth can you possibly justify penalising people who do less well at university? If this idea were to be instated we would create an entirely new educational underclass of people who were unwilling to attend university due to the possibility of them paying full fees as a result. Do you propose the contribution from said underachievers be the same as the current maximum tuition fee contribution? Or that they pay the *full* whack, which is considerably more than any current student or their parents are ever expected to pay. Your idea is BS tbh.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:13   #71
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Yahwe again. .
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:13   #72
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
child you will remember who i am.
oh get over yourself.

Quote:
You had a shock yesterday,i sympathise: but you are not yet a failure. so stop spouting anti-intellectual clap trap. the sort of rubbish that the people who view themselves as failures dribble out from time to time before they get drunk and sink into depression and self loathing.
these are not newly discovered views, nor are they anti-intellectual. your commitment to reading between the lines is commendable if misjudged.

Quote:
Intellectual study, training and development is tantamount to civilisation. the beneftis to a country are inconcievably great: in the economy, in social and moral development, in cultural memory, in art and the pursuit of arts, in beauraucratic efficiency, in healthcare and in the rule of law.
without it a country will suffer.
indeed they are, so introducing a lottery to academia seems utterly unwise.

Quote:
attacking those seeking it (with fees), when they are at their poorest and weakest is despicable. it is indicitive of short term thinking: scoring political points to the detriment of the future.
except that's not how it works. graduates only pay anything once they're in a well-paying job. that's the whole point. only those with the means to pay, pay.

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I will not tolerate any more from you.
heavens.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:14   #73
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
By every measurable standard that I am aware of this is the case, and it is only in this country that increasing pass rates are actually seen as a problem.
What do you mean by "measureable standard"? A-Levels now are just easier than they were ten, even five years ago, and it's also a bad thing that more people are passing and getting A's, because that destroys the comparative nature of the result. What would be the point of an exam, say, if everyone got the same mark? What would that tell you?
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:20   #74
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prawn
How on earth can you possibly justify penalising people who do less well at university? If this idea were to be instated we would create an entirely new educational underclass of people who were unwilling to attend university due to the possibility of them paying full fees as a result.
there are already people unwilling to go to uni because of fees and debt, this system may convince some of the smarter ones to go, and the less intelligent to stay away, which isn't a bad thing really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prawn
Do you propose the contribution from said underachievers be the same as the current maximum tuition fee contribution? Or that they pay the *full* whack, which is considerably more than any current student or their parents are ever expected to pay. Your idea is BS tbh.
I'm not sure about exactly how much people should pay, but something along the lines of:
first: £0,
2:1: £500-800, ie a fixed price somewhere in that range,
2:2: £1000-1500, dependant on what the standard price is,
fail/drop out:£1700-2000.
all of this is per year, so if someone drops out after 2 years they pay somewhere around £4000.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:21   #75
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
What do you mean by "measureable standard"? A-Levels now are just easier than they were ten, even five years ago, and it's also a bad thing that more people are passing and getting A's, because that destroys the comparative nature of the result. What would be the point of an exam, say, if everyone got the same mark? What would that tell you?
i repeat: only in england is it read as a bad thing that pass rates are going up. on the continent and elsewhere it's seen as testament to the success of the educational system.

if the examiners and the exam inquiry boards think the exams are at a consistent level, what makes you think that you, from reading tabloid headlines, know more than those employed not only in the field but in the study of that field?

the points that the rags often raise is to, for example, wheel a recent graduate in and give him an A-Level paper. Then, they act shocked when he says he found it easier than his A-Level paper. The trick there is, see, that they ignore that person's further study and experience between the two occasions.

If the people who are paid to know if exams are getting easier don't think exams are getting easier, i'm inclined to trust them rather than the Daily Express.

As for 'comparative nature of the mark' - that's only one interpretation, and the grading system proves its inaccuracy. If the aim was to provide a comparative mark, grades would be given out based on percentiles. Instead, they are given out as objective marks, to indicate proficiency compared to a field larger than one year of exam-takers.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:24   #76
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

I think that (as someone who has tried both tests from 20 or so years ago and of today), I am able to say that in both maths and physics, exams are much easier, however from lack of experience I can't say about other subjects.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:43   #77
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
I think that (as someone who has tried both tests from 20 or so years ago and of today), I am able to say that in both maths and physics, exams are much easier, however from lack of experience I can't say about other subjects.
if you had said five years, that would be one thing. twenty years ago, however, the whole setup was radically different. it's like saying the poverty gap has closed in the last fifty years because more people have colour televisions.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:50   #78
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

I did not offer an explenation, just that I found the more recent exams easier than the ones from ages back.
In both maths and physics there has been no real change that I have noticed in the past 5 or so years, having been given some papers that old for practice.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:54   #79
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

the reason that exams are easy now is a combination of the papers themselves and the structure of the qualification.

with the latter part being of far more import
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:57   #80
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
there are already people unwilling to go to uni because of fees and debt, this system may convince some of the smarter ones to go, and the less intelligent to stay away, which isn't a bad thing really.


I'm not sure about exactly how much people should pay, but something along the lines of:
first: £0,
2:1: £500-800, ie a fixed price somewhere in that range,
2:2: £1000-1500, dependant on what the standard price is,
fail/drop out:£1700-2000.
all of this is per year, so if someone drops out after 2 years they pay somewhere around £4000.
What about those who have a genuine reason for underperforming? How much do they have to pay?
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 18:58   #81
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
i repeat: only in england is it read as a bad thing that pass rates are going up. on the continent and elsewhere it's seen as testament to the success of the educational system.
Explain what this means?

Quote:
if the examiners and the exam inquiry boards think the exams are at a consistent level, what makes you think that you, from reading tabloid headlines, know more than those employed not only in the field but in the study of that field?
Lets do this at your level, shall we? I was going to talk about university professors, teachers in many school and my own god damn experience, but instead I'm going to make a meaningless insult which doesn't even make sense and not actually answer the point!

Quote:
the points that the rags often raise is to, for example, wheel a recent graduate in and give him an A-Level paper. Then, they act shocked when he says he found it easier than his A-Level paper. The trick there is, see, that they ignore that person's further study and experience between the two occasions.
They might, I don't.

SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT EVOLUTION EXISTS FOR STUPID REASONS THEREFORE EVOLUTION IS WRONG!

Quote:
If the people who are paid to know if exams are getting easier don't think exams are getting easier, i'm inclined to trust them rather than the Daily Express.
Your ability to name newspapers is impressive!

Quote:
As for 'comparative nature of the mark' - that's only one interpretation, and the grading system proves its inaccuracy. If the aim was to provide a comparative mark, grades would be given out based on percentiles.
They are, I'm afraid. And furthermore, that doesn't actually have anything to do with my point. Please try to understand things before you reply to them - you can have a system which gives variable amounts of each grade per year, but if there are too many of each tier then it doesn't matter.

If you don't think it's for comparison, what do you think it's for? Universities want to use it for comparison. So do employers. Which mystery group wants a meaningless measure?
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 19:02   #82
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
In both maths and physics there has been no real change that I have noticed in the past 5 or so years, having been given some papers that old for practice.
Depends on the board really, and the paper. By and large, there's less covered in each module, though.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 19:02   #83
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

I have read this thread with great interest. I still am not sure which side of the free education issue Mo was on however.

Being an American, I have no idea what the financing of an education in the UK entails. However, in the US there are scholarships, grants, fellowships, etc. which are available to encourage groups with special abilities. Is there or is there not some similar mechanisim in place in the UK to help decrease the cost of education for certain individuals.

In the US there is usually a means test so that the financial help goes to those who would not be able to manage higher education without some assistance.

A question I would also have is: If this pay more if you do less idea is good for university then why not for elementary school? Bleed the chav's and ned's and their families white! Social service programs already encourage them to be shit all of their life. Maybe you could arrange it so that their families would think twice about sending them to any school at any time. Then they could be a guaranteed underclass forever.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 19:12   #84
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Being an American, I have no idea what the financing of an education in the UK entails. However, in the US there are scholarships, grants, fellowships, etc. which are available to encourage groups with special abilities. Is there or is there not some similar mechanisim in place in the UK to help decrease the cost of education for certain individuals.

In the US there is usually a means test so that the financial help goes to those who would not be able to manage higher education without some assistance.
all that's still there. it's still cheaper to go to uni here than over there. the problem is, people don't like the idea of paying for their further education, rather than getting others to do it.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 19:21   #85
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
people don't like the idea of paying for their further education, rather than getting others to do it.
Isnt this in our nature? Nearly everyone will look for the path of least resistance whether it be electricity in a circuit or people forced to pay for things.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 22:52   #86
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
all that's still there. it's still cheaper to go to uni here than over there. the problem is, people don't like the idea of paying for their further education, rather than getting others to do it.
The California State University system fees range from about 1480 pounds sterling to 2210 pounds sterling at todays exchange rate. Not radically different.
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 23:43   #87
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The California State University system fees range from about 1480 pounds sterling to 2210 pounds sterling at todays exchange rate. Not radically different.
but don't the prestigious universities cost a ton more?
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 23:49   #88
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

The last page of this thread has almost reduced me to tears so hey yeah Mo Mowlam she was that girl who done the Ireland thing wasnt she? Just goes to show that anyone can die no matter who they are!
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Unread 19 Aug 2005, 23:56   #89
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
but don't the prestigious universities cost a ton more?
The impression that i've been given from american relitives is that for anything that we would deem worthy of the name university it costs a shit load.
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Unread 20 Aug 2005, 00:18   #90
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

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Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
The impression that i've been given from american relitives is that for anything that we would deem worthy of the name university it costs a shit load.
It depends utterly on the universtiy. Places like MIT, Stanford, Harvard etc will charge around £20K a year, because they are the best universities in the world and thats what an education there costs. Lesser universities (which are probably still better than 90% of British ones) will have lower fees, maybe around £10-12K a year. Public universities and the poorer qualitiy private institutions are cheaper, but you'd have a difficult time arguing that these are inferior to average British univerisities.

Its hardly shocking that "better = costs more money".


edit: A lot of places are also cheaper for students from the same state afaik. Berkeley is £2K/semester for Californians, and there arent many UK universities in the same league as Berekeley. Texis@Austin and UCLA are similarly priced, and again these are probably better than all but a small handful of UK unis.

I cant be bothered googling for more fees but you get the idea.

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Unread 20 Aug 2005, 00:21   #91
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
maybe around £10-12 a year.
Wow that is cheap- about the price of 2 CDs for a university education.
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Unread 20 Aug 2005, 00:31   #92
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

I don't know why but I was given the impression we had the best unis in the world.
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Unread 20 Aug 2005, 01:12   #93
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

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Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
I don't know why but I was given the impression we had the best unis in the world.
i do
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Unread 20 Aug 2005, 01:13   #94
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

you give the impression or you do personally have the best universities in the world?
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Unread 20 Aug 2005, 07:23   #95
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Re: Mo Mowlam Dead

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Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
you give the impression or you do personally have the best universities in the world?
He knows why, possibly.
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