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2 Aug 2004, 18:21
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#101
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Jolt's best friend
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,101
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
basically. were anyone else running planetarion would they use jolt servers? i think the answer to this is probably no, the servers are much beefier than planetarion requires, and are hosted on low ping networks in an expensive place - all wasteful.
given that simtech has to pay jolt for the technicians, and the servers in the same way that simtech would have to pay anyone else, and anyone else would have to pay, i still see no justification for using more expensive hosting, other than the money going in to jolt's pockets.
prove me wrong, demonstrate that pa pays less to host at jolt than anywhere else...
-mist
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<Karmulian> subtle as a kick in the nuts as always
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2 Aug 2004, 18:31
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#102
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Let battle commence
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England
Posts: 732
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
basically. were anyone else running planetarion would they use jolt servers? i think the answer to this is probably no, the servers are much beefier than planetarion requires, and are hosted on low ping networks in an expensive place - all wasteful.
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Never was sure where teh 'db server' was, but the forums are on another jolt server ( http://cs-maps.jolt.co.uk)
;; ANSWER SECTION:
pirate.planetarion.com. 71264 IN A 195.149.21.200
;; ANSWER SECTION:
cs-maps.jolt.co.uk. 86222 IN A 195.149.21.200
As for the other servers, my understanding the were all the same hardware (Dual CPU P3 1GHz, 1GB RAM and 20GB SCSI drives) so yes, they are a little overkill for what they do
Disclaimer - this WAS correct, could have changed now.
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Mit
http://tim.igoe.me.uk - Development Blog
Whats on TV now - UK TV Guide
<Mendosa> mit is a cute cudlly toy that will be in the shops by christmas
<mig-work> ur now my eternal fav pa god
<Squiz> i name thee, Sir Mit
<Zeus> u my friend are a true gamer ![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif) I knew u were
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2 Aug 2004, 18:34
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#103
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Inactive peon
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
yes but what IF we break it remotely and need access physically to fix it
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2 Aug 2004, 18:37
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#104
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Retired
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
How would you break it remotely if you dont have physical access? ;-)
What I was implying was that with a remote host, you could only break the software part which would not require physical access to fix. If anything broke physically, it was the responsibility of the service provider, hence costing you nothing to fix.
-TheRat
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2 Aug 2004, 18:41
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#105
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Mr. Blobby
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
What I meant was that if a server you pay for goes boo-boo, it isnt your responsibility to fix it but the owner of the server.
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Obviously Jolt can hardly sell it's customers the "The servers we are providing you with went down, and now we're sitting here doing nothing, waiting for someone to fix them" line.
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2 Aug 2004, 18:46
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#106
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Retired
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Explain what that had to do with what I wrote please.
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[1up] Senior MO
Retired
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2 Aug 2004, 18:46
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#107
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Hamster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Crewe, England
Posts: 3,606
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
In planetarion you could implement features such as sms alerts (Your construction/research is finished), sms reminders (alarm clock?), Ship images, construction images, ingame statistics (which would have to be stuff not possible to generate through the bot files), and the list goes on. For those who dont understand what I am talking about/dont think this would be populare or even possible, I suggest reading the part of the hattrick manual which explains the "supporter" feature.
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I will reply to the rest later but just wanted to remind you PLANETARION DID have such a SMS system about to be implemented into the game back around the end of round 3. This community (well the top players anyway) kicked up such a fuss that it would negate their activity bonus that they forced the idea to be scrapped.
This is the problem with the community at times, we want a game thats basically free, thats stable and that has lots of players yet we large groups of us are always opposed to any attempts to acheive this. They try and generate more players and the big players complain that its made it too easy to play and ruins their advantage, they try and make the game stable and people complain cos they have to pay for this, they try and make free accounts as uncrippled as possible and people start complaining about spys and hence force them to be crippled even more, they run banners and 98% of players ignore them or worse block them, they try and add new paid features and people complain about them ect ect.
We seem to want the game to get better but arent willing dont want our ability to succeed to be hindered and you simply cant acheieve both.
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Wakey
PD and Suggestions Moderator
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2 Aug 2004, 18:53
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#108
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Retired
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
This is why I did not name incomming alerts as an example, as it would never be accepted by the hardcore players. Simple, less important sms features like I listed has a lot better chance of getting through imho.
-TheRat
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2 Aug 2004, 19:05
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#109
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Hamster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Crewe, England
Posts: 3,606
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
This is why I did not name incomming alerts as an example, as it would never be accepted by the hardcore players. Simple, less important sms features like I listed has a lot better chance of getting through imho.
-TheRat
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And incoming alerts are one of the few tthings people would pay for on an SMS service though. I mean lets look at my mobile phonem I hit menu scross througha few icons and guess what theres a clock section, a clock section with an alarm. I'm sure most phones have the same, if i need a reminder I can do that for free rather than be charged for it. The only advantage it might have is obviously if we miss a tick BUT on the setup we have now this isnt a common occurance. Offering something in the hope it might cover costs even though its a service that isnt really needed isnt that smart as it will end up costing more to run than it generates (after all i'm assuming that access to an SMS gateway requires some kind of downpayment and then x amount per message)
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Wakey
PD and Suggestions Moderator
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2 Aug 2004, 19:10
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#110
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Confœderatio Helvetica
Posts: 323
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
[17:34] <biffy> because Jolt is a UK company
[17:34] <biffy> hosting it outside the UK would probably lead to all sorts of issues
[17:34] <biffy> payments, maintenance
[17:35] <biffy> say we host it in sweden
[17:35] <biffy> we have no swedish staff
[17:35] <biffy> so something goes wrong with the box
[17:35] <biffy> how do we fix it?
[17:38] <Kal> thats what i thought
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'In addition to its’ base in Europe jolt also has servers across the USA, delivering the now legendary levels of performance and service to US gamers that have been enjoyed by gamers across Europe. '
'With facilities in telehouse London, New York City USA and two further data centres in the UK, jolt can offer you anything from a few U of rack space to complete cabinets.'
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2 Aug 2004, 19:15
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#111
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Hamster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Crewe, England
Posts: 3,606
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
From what I remember the server(s?) ran out of Fudges bedroom hooked up to a 512k pipe. I also seem to remember that there was A LOT more users, at least in R2, than there was now. Please note that my memory is not the best in the world and this is a long time ago. As for the current 5 servers - someone should be shot. R3 had 180k users, whereas a significant amount was used (even though a lot of them were multi accounts, a lot of the multies did use their accounts) and the server hardware was not even close to what is available today. Having seen the server spinner brings to speedgames @ TG, and speedgames are very nice stresstests, there is no doubt in my mind that running 5 "überservers" is just plain silly.
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Your right that they started in Fudges Bedroom, you may be right that that they started on a 512k pipe, but i'm almost sure they moved to a bigger pipe fairly quickly as it couldnt cope, even then it struggled and by the end of r2 I believe they ahd moved to Barrysworld.
Oh and for the various people who said "its to do with the hardware not being able to handle it not the pipe" if people will remember back you recall being told to increase the timeout on IE to prevent it from killing the connection when it didnt get a responce in the default timescale. Why was it killing the connection, because the pipe was being flooded by requests as teh tick approached and it couldnt receieve all that data and respond to it quick enough so the browser would assume that the server was dead and would timeout
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Wakey
PD and Suggestions Moderator
Co-founder of [F-Crew]
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2 Aug 2004, 19:19
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#112
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Retired
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
If the pipe was flooded it would just drop the packet and seting the timeout to 7 years wouldnt do you any good. If, on the other hand, the server was the bottleneck and the pipe coped just fine, then increasing the timeout would make the browser wait for the server to be able to process the request.
In other words, this could not be an issue with the pipe, but with the hardware (or should I say coding).
Edit:
I am quite sure pa ran out of Fudges room til it moved to barrysworld, which was as you say end R2.
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Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most
-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
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2 Aug 2004, 19:20
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#113
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Zhil's Monkeyboy
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 125
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
And incoming alerts are one of the few tthings people would pay for on an SMS service though. I mean lets look at my mobile phonem I hit menu scross througha few icons and guess what theres a clock section, a clock section with an alarm. I'm sure most phones have the same, if i need a reminder I can do that for free rather than be charged for it. The only advantage it might have is obviously if we miss a tick BUT on the setup we have now this isnt a common occurance. Offering something in the hope it might cover costs even though its a service that isnt really needed isnt that smart as it will end up costing more to run than it generates (after all i'm assuming that access to an SMS gateway requires some kind of downpayment and then x amount per message)
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Largely depends on the level of detail the alerts provide. I would think most people would accept the following:
* Your planet is under attack (but not by who or by what)
* Your construction / research is finished
* Any new messages could be SMS'd to the phone as well as pmail
The bottom one alone would make a significant difference and open up several options and new ways of handling defence / attacks and encouraging use of ingame messaging.
If you're asleep the odds are you may well sleep through the SMS unless you put a klaxon on your phone, and a lot of the more active players may even elect not to use said service.
Nova
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2 Aug 2004, 19:23
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#114
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Retired
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
To add to what BlackNova said, you could diffuse the incomming msg even more, just saying your planet had "an open jumpgate", meaning you would only know that a fleet was heading your way.
This could also be implemented in the research tree, allowing for "automatic planetary surveilance", in other words having a wave type or something like that which would alert you of any jumpgate activity.
The posibilities are endless..
-TheRat
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Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most
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[1up] Senior MO
Retired
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2 Aug 2004, 19:53
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#115
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Mr. Blobby
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
Explain what that had to do with what I wrote please.
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Jolt provides people with gaming servers, including the Planetarion customers.
If they have no control over their servers, because they are in another part of Europe, and they break down, they have no way of fixing them. They will have to rely on other people to fix the servers properly for them. Which means that they are not able to keep their customers fully up to date on proceedings, which in turn will not go down well with their customers.
Offering people servers for rent and then having to feed them the "Sorry the server broke, we're waiting until someone fixes it" line when there is a problem, isn't exactly a trustworthy example, and frankly Jolt would be crazy to engage in such a setup.
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2 Aug 2004, 20:17
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#116
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Retired
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
I never suggested that Jolt move their gaming servers to another suggestion. My suggestion was that if bandwidth is so insanely expensive, planetarion could be cheaper for Jolt if hosted in another location.
-TheRat
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Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most
-Elysium Officer
[1up] Senior MO
Retired
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2 Aug 2004, 20:49
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#117
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Zhil's Monkeyboy
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 125
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Jolt provides people with gaming servers, including the Planetarion customers.
If they have no control over their servers, because they are in another part of Europe, and they break down, they have no way of fixing them. They will have to rely on other people to fix the servers properly for them. Which means that they are not able to keep their customers fully up to date on proceedings, which in turn will not go down well with their customers.
Offering people servers for rent and then having to feed them the "Sorry the server broke, we're waiting until someone fixes it" line when there is a problem, isn't exactly a trustworthy example, and frankly Jolt would be crazy to engage in such a setup.
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Okay, on the scale of likely things to happen, assuming you chose a vaguely reputable provider in your designated country of choice, what is the probability of the server physically falling over if you do anything less than a full kernel upgrade (like someone did in another game a few days before round start) ?
I'd put it in somewhere between myself winning the lottery and hell freezing over... Most of the time a server goes down (and by this I mean absolutely inaccessible) it's either because :
The power goes out
There's been a fire
A BOFH put a nail fuse in the 3 phase (which causes both of the above)
The manager refused the BOFH's payrise (it was only 100%... I mean who can live on £50k?)
You see my point by now I guess
Everything else you can rectify with ssh or ftp access ultimately.
Nova
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2 Aug 2004, 22:05
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#118
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Jolt's best friend
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,101
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Obviously Jolt can hardly sell it's customers the "The servers we are providing you with went down, and now we're sitting here doing nothing, waiting for someone to fix them" line.
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but... that's the line that pa always give while they wait for someone at jolt to fix them...
anyway, tbh, i don't particularly think that pa should move their servers as it wouldn't be good business sense for jolt to do so because it would reduce the amount of money they can 'make' from pa, however i'd quite like them to admit that it's happening, rather than this 'we don't want to make money out of pa' type stance
-mist
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<Karmulian> subtle as a kick in the nuts as always
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3 Aug 2004, 08:51
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#119
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th0ng gimp
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
[17:32] <Kal> anyway people want to know why jolt uses expensive UK hosting for pa
[17:34] <biffy> because Jolt is a UK company
[17:34] <biffy> hosting it outside the UK would probably lead to all sorts of issues
[17:34] <biffy> payments, maintenance
[17:35] <biffy> say we host it in sweden
[17:35] <biffy> we have no swedish staff
[17:35] <biffy> so something goes wrong with the box
[17:35] <biffy> how do we fix it?
[17:38] <Kal> thats what i thought
there u go - makes sence really
there was a suggesiton somewhere that norway could be used and spinner could fix etc - but spinner is only part time remember so thats not a real option.
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his was always going to be jolt's ge out of jail card.
As for technical problems with servers most ASP's offer service level agreements which would mean that "the cost" would be limited and probably would charge minimal amounts for that service.
In reality Jolt are making cash out of PA, we are using unused bandwidth which they are paying for and recharging simtech. If the company went tits up it would not suprise me if they were a secured creditor.
However jolt dresses it up they are making oodles of cash out of our community one way or another. This is were the commerciality becomes farcical. Theya re recharging sim tec watever they deem to be the correct recharge figure. Yet they talk about wanting PA to be successful.
To jolt - I am willing to talk to any accountant you can provide t explain your business plan and how you fund pa and make a independent assessment of whether I think you are being fair or not. Just tell me where and when
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3 Aug 2004, 08:55
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#120
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th0ng gimp
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Jolt provides people with gaming servers, including the Planetarion customers.
If they have no control over their servers, because they are in another part of Europe, and they break down, they have no way of fixing them. They will have to rely on other people to fix the servers properly for them. Which means that they are not able to keep their customers fully up to date on proceedings, which in turn will not go down well with their customers.
Offering people servers for rent and then having to feed them the "Sorry the server broke, we're waiting until someone fixes it" line when there is a problem, isn't exactly a trustworthy example, and frankly Jolt would be crazy to engage in such a setup.
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It has nothing to do with down time - its all about the cas leshy thats all :/
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3 Aug 2004, 09:42
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#121
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Inactive peon
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Rumad how exactly does jolt paying for exepnsive telehouse servers which they rent make them more money..... surly it looses them more
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3 Aug 2004, 09:54
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#122
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Emperor
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: in front of a computer
Posts: 490
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Interesting thread.
About two years ago when there where talks (again) about PA's financial problems, i offered help/solutions to reduce the cost of bandwidth as just like in this thread, people "assume(d)" that it is a major part of the running costs. However - just as with previous experiences i had - it was either impossible to reach the right people or i was told "bandwidth is not a problem". Now again i see lengthy speculations in this thread, but what i didnt see (or maybe missed it because im not often here anymore?) was somebody saying that a big chunk of cost is in the bandwidth or even hinting at it. There are many many ways to cut bandwith costs but i dont see the point in listing or discussing them here before its even confirmed that cutting bandwidth cost would help in any way.
It is quite funny to read the arguments why hosting in another country or another place "isnt possible" while the rest of the industrie does it and i am talking here about really important internet stuff like serious government institutions, the most prominent software developers, the big financial institutes etc.
Whichever level of availability you need and are willing to pay for - there are solutions for it and i plainly dont see a big problem with a statistical downtime of a day or two during a year if you use a really lowend external hoster and thereby save a lot cash (just if the speculations about bandwidth costs or server costs are actually true in any way). Even cheap hosters offer pre-boot remote access by now in case you totally utterly screwed up the software installation and in any other case which means hardware problems, it is only a question of software to counter it. For my own server software i make sure that the different servers are continuously monitoring each other (and nowadays not only if they are actually still alive and working, but also if one of them suddenly gets a huge load or becomes unresponsive in some way) and that any service which uses a cheap hoster/machine can be remote re-installed in a matter of some minutes or 2 hours at most.
There is no internet service on this planet which can achieve 100% availability anytime for your customers, but there are many ways to achieve 99% "cheaply" and 99.99999% if you are willing to spend cash.
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3 Aug 2004, 09:55
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#123
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th0ng gimp
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Rumad how exactly does jolt paying for exepnsive telehouse servers which they rent make them more money..... surly it looses them more
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Nope because Jolt aren't payng for it - simtech are.
Its a relatively easy concept to grasp, but simtech are registered as a separate limited company which means all invoicing and such is done as a company to company transaction.
My guess is that Jolt has a agreement to have a certain amount of bandwidth and service level agreement. The servers are irrelevant as I am guessing either simtech pays to rent the server off jolt or paid a up front fee for the server when it was implemented.
Since Jolt is paying for X amount of bandwidth and that that bandwidth is unused running pa actually makes for more bandwidth being used actually lowering there cost base.
Its actually a very dry accountancy theory - one which I have to analyse monthly, but the more money you make against those costs the more profitable you become.
The cost and the bandwidth are already there - So the more usage of that bandwidth they get either lowers there cost base for the other clan servers increasing profitability or actually dilutes the company wide profit margins (the percentage of profits) but due to having money against bandwidth that would otherwise be unused increases profitability.
if you want a chat about the theory yell me and i will try and show you on irc, but its to do with utilisatiion of bandwidth that they already pay for. I doubt they have different agreements per server as that would negate collective bargaining and increasing cost.
Rumad's Graphic Example
Jolt buys 100 mb of bandwidth
Server 1 uses 20 mb bandwidth and makes a gross margin of 20%
Sever 2 uses 20 mb and makes a profit of 30%
Server 3 uses 30 mb and makes 40% profit
Server 4 uses 20mb and makes 25% profit
That leaves 10% bandwidth and maybe more during different periods of the day.
So PA comes along and buys the remaining bandwidth. This can be done on a cost plus basis like above or at a cost basis (no profit just the basic cost which jolt incurs).
Either way the unused bandwidth being used increases profitability for Jolt with minimal risk since if Simtech fails due to it being a separate limited company Jolt are not responsible for there debts.
My guess is that Jolt charge on a cost plus basis, but even if it was on a cost basis the fact that the unused bandwidth is used actually makes more profitability.
This is why a lot of manufacturing factories produce 24 hours a day (like car firms) it actually makes little sense in shutting down the plant as it may even cost more to do so. This is a relatively simplified example of absoption costing, but its enough to show that jolt are more profitable even at charging at cost.
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Last edited by Rumad; 3 Aug 2004 at 10:20.
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3 Aug 2004, 10:27
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#124
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Inactive peon
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
this depends on how exactly the bandwidth costs are arranged, i don;t believe it works in terms of left over bandwidth from their supplier.
I was under the impression that each server jolt used could technically use as much bandwidth that it wanted and is charged per Mb i.e. there is no concept of left over bandwidth.
But really i'm jus guessing, as are you - will try and find out how it all actually works
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3 Aug 2004, 10:30
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#125
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Let battle commence
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England
Posts: 732
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
how about, you pay for a 'X' MB pipe, and can then share it for whatever is needed. No other limits other than physical bandwidth.
__________________
Mit
http://tim.igoe.me.uk - Development Blog
Whats on TV now - UK TV Guide
<Mendosa> mit is a cute cudlly toy that will be in the shops by christmas
<mig-work> ur now my eternal fav pa god
<Squiz> i name thee, Sir Mit
<Zeus> u my friend are a true gamer ![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif) I knew u were
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3 Aug 2004, 10:31
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#126
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Inactive peon
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit
how about, you pay for a 'X' MB pipe, and can then share it for whatever is needed. No other limits other than physical bandwidth.
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all depends on whether its pipe per server or pipe per server cluster then - which again only jolt would know so I can't really say much more.
But at the end of the day the bandwidth costs are nothing compared to paying people etc.
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3 Aug 2004, 10:31
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#127
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th0ng gimp
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
this depends on how exactly the bandwidth costs are arranged, i don;t believe it works in terms of left over bandwidth from their supplier.
I was under the impression that each server jolt used could technically use as much bandwidth that it wanted and is charged per Mb i.e. there is no concept of left over bandwidth.
But really i'm jus guessing, as are you - will try and find out how it all actually works
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I am gussing that wihin that agreemen they are "reserved" a certain amount of bandwidth due t if it was on pure usage it menas the ISP is taking that risk and they would want to guarantee certain profit levels themselves. Also if that is the case thats a expensive way to buy bandwidth so I would definitely assume they are recharging simtech on a cost plus basis.
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3 Aug 2004, 10:33
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#128
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th0ng gimp
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit
how about, you pay for a 'X' MB pipe, and can then share it for whatever is needed. No other limits other than physical bandwidth.
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This is what I reckon they do - they are buying a pipe and the bandwidth use within that is whatever Jolt decide upon.
Again the more usage the lower the cost increasing profitability.
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3 Aug 2004, 10:33
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#129
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Emperor
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: in front of a computer
Posts: 490
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
I wouldn't go for a client-based setup; PA's attraction is that you can log in from anywhere. If you had to install a client, you'd run into trouble on handheld devices, school and business networks, et cetera.
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a) clientside software doesnt necessarily need to be "installed" in the traditional meaning
b) clientside software does _NOT_ mean PA cant be accessed through a normal webbrowser anymore
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3 Aug 2004, 10:34
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#130
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Inactive peon
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
Interesting thread.
About two years ago when there where talks (again) about PA's financial problems, i offered help/solutions to reduce the cost of bandwidth as just like in this thread, people "assume(d)" that it is a major part of the running costs. However - just as with previous experiences i had - it was either impossible to reach the right people or i was told "bandwidth is not a problem". Now again i see lengthy speculations in this thread, but what i didnt see (or maybe missed it because im not often here anymore?) was somebody saying that a big chunk of cost is in the bandwidth or even hinting at it. There are many many ways to cut bandwith costs but i dont see the point in listing or discussing them here before its even confirmed that cutting bandwidth cost would help in any way.
It is quite funny to read the arguments why hosting in another country or another place "isnt possible" while the rest of the industrie does it and i am talking here about really important internet stuff like serious government institutions, the most prominent software developers, the big financial institutes etc.
Whichever level of availability you need and are willing to pay for - there are solutions for it and i plainly dont see a big problem with a statistical downtime of a day or two during a year if you use a really lowend external hoster and thereby save a lot cash (just if the speculations about bandwidth costs or server costs are actually true in any way). Even cheap hosters offer pre-boot remote access by now in case you totally utterly screwed up the software installation and in any other case which means hardware problems, it is only a question of software to counter it. For my own server software i make sure that the different servers are continuously monitoring each other (and nowadays not only if they are actually still alive and working, but also if one of them suddenly gets a huge load or becomes unresponsive in some way) and that any service which uses a cheap hoster/machine can be remote re-installed in a matter of some minutes or 2 hours at most.
There is no internet service on this planet which can achieve 100% availability anytime for your customers, but there are many ways to achieve 99% "cheaply" and 99.99999% if you are willing to spend cash.
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the point is big companies/governments etc do have representatives in other countries which is why they can do things - jolt is a small company.
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3 Aug 2004, 10:35
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#131
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th0ng gimp
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
all depends on whether its pipe per server or pipe per server cluster then - which again only jolt would know so I can't really say much more.
But at the end of the day the bandwidth costs are nothing compared to paying people etc.
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I realy doubt its per server - only a fool would enter into an agreement like that when they already have a thriving business.
Also as Hinch pointed out years ago Nildram own Jolt, so it adds to there profitability anyway so it all feeds through - only people being made to pay are the PA community.
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3 Aug 2004, 10:37
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#132
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th0ng gimp
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
the point is big companies/governments etc do have representatives in other countries which is why they can do things - jolt is a small company.
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you know that Nildram own jolt right?
I would say not so small tbh.
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3 Aug 2004, 11:26
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#133
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Jolt's best friend
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,101
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Ramihyn
jolt won't, and i suspect will never give any financial figures with regards to planetarion. personally, i suspect this is because they don't think we'd like them, but i'm sure it can be passed off as sensible business practice.
as such, their expenditure seems to fall in to the areas of servers, bandwidth and staff.
staff is spinner and biffy, both of whom i'd say are neccessary, and they'd probably be quite upset if we started suggesting they take wage cuts. this leaves servers and bandwidth to work on. these also happen to be the parts where jolt is directly involved - being as there's a lot of questions about jolt's involvement with pa recently this therefore seemed a reasonable line of enquiry. who knows, jolt may even say something sensible and come out looking good!
-mist
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3 Aug 2004, 11:29
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#134
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Let battle commence
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England
Posts: 732
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Staff is Spinner, biffy is hired by Jolt to do other things, PA comes under his job thou...
__________________
Mit
http://tim.igoe.me.uk - Development Blog
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<Mendosa> mit is a cute cudlly toy that will be in the shops by christmas
<mig-work> ur now my eternal fav pa god
<Squiz> i name thee, Sir Mit
<Zeus> u my friend are a true gamer ![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif) I knew u were
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3 Aug 2004, 11:37
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#135
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Inactive peon
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
being bored at work i sent an email to geoff about rumad's post, the response:
"]He has an interesting theory, and boy do I wish we could make the kind of
profits he's talking about below.
It doesn't apply to us as our bandwidth is metered, ie we only pay for what
we use."
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3 Aug 2004, 11:38
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#136
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Emperor
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: in front of a computer
Posts: 490
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
the point is big companies/governments etc do have representatives in other countries which is why they can do things - jolt is a small company.
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I dont see the point?
You restrict yourself to a number of countries where you know that they actually enforce contract law, you restrict your choice of hosters to those who are in the business for a while (the first 2 years dont count) and who have other respectable companies as customers, you check the web for any negative comments or reviews, you make performance tests with their other customers and their testing sites, you ask your friends in the business if they know them or what their experience was, you dont pay 3 years in advance and double-check the contracts, you check the hosters infrastructure if the routing and hosting is failsafe (some cheap US "hosters" actually are/where students abusing their university hardware). Go to a hoster which actually has something to lose if they screw up. If you are dead serious you make a financial background check on the hoster and other "stuff". Dont try to do cut-throat deals or you are asking for trouble.
At the end of these evaluations you will have a list of maybe 5 to 8 viable hosters so you also have 4 to 7 backup solutions in the worst case.
If your hoster royally screws up and it comes to a legal dispute or goes to court, you will very likely need a quick replacement solution anyway - no matter if you have your own people in the country and half of them are lawyers. You cant sit it out till a court decided in your favor anyway.
It really isnt a big deal.
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3 Aug 2004, 11:41
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#137
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Inactive peon
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
I dont see the point?
You restrict yourself to a number of countries where you know that they actually enforce contract law, you restrict your choice of hosters to those who are in the business for a while (the first 2 years dont count) and who have other respectable companies as customers, you check the web for any negative comments or reviews, you make performance tests with their other customers and their testing sites, you ask your friends in the business if they know them or what their experience was, you dont pay 3 years in advance and double-check the contracts, you check the hosters infrastructure if the routing and hosting is failsafe (some cheap US "hosters" actually are/where students abusing their university hardware). Go to a hoster which actually has something to lose if they screw up. If you are dead serious you make a financial background check on the hoster and other "stuff". Dont try to do cut-throat deals or you are asking for trouble.
At the end of these evaluations you will have a list of maybe 5 to 8 viable hosters so you also have 4 to 7 backup solutions in the worst case.
If your hoster royally screws up and it comes to a legal dispute or goes to court, you will very likely need a quick replacement solution anyway - no matter if you have your own people in the country and half of them are lawyers. You cant sit it out till a court decided in your favor anyway.
It really isnt a big deal.
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its still a major hastle to take someone to court if they breach the contract - and will be made especially difficult if its in another country.
as an interesting little fact since round 10, server costs have dropped dramatically due to enhancements which allow the use of fewer servers - so we are activly trying to suppress costs
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3 Aug 2004, 11:45
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#138
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th0ng gimp
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
being bored at work i sent an email to geoff about rumad's post, the response:
"]He has an interesting theory, and boy do I wish we could make the kind of
profits he's talking about below.
It doesn't apply to us as our bandwidth is metered, ie we only pay for what
we use."
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So is it on a cost or a cost plus basis its being sold to simtech?
The profits were examples of how absorption would work, not actual profitability to explain my PoV.
As for only being charged bandwidth thats great, but does nothing to disprove what i say - just that they don't buy on "chunks" of bandwidth (which seems a costly way to buy it to me).
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3 Aug 2004, 12:09
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#139
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Inactive peon
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
So is it on a cost or a cost plus basis its being sold to simtech?
The profits were examples of how absorption would work, not actual profitability to explain my PoV.
As for only being charged bandwidth thats great, but does nothing to disprove what i say - just that they don't buy on "chunks" of bandwidth (which seems a costly way to buy it to me).
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tbh i don;t have a clue about how the whole jolt + simtech thing works, but here is a guess:
simtech gets all services e.g. staff, servers etc at cost from jolt.
simtech gets money from account paymnets
if income>expenditure then simtech invests more into pa or jolt takes the profits.
in that simtech will ahve had large losses last year due to long round 10 development and a free round we are probably only just getting to the stage where simtech has an overall profit since its creation (assuming it was created solely for PA) - hence this is why jolt are only just starting to talk about spending money etc.
hence as such i expect more investement in the future and many more possibilites - as such many of the good money making ideas thrown around will not be in round 12 and possibly not even in round 13, but after that who knows.
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3 Aug 2004, 12:14
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#140
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Emperor
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: in front of a computer
Posts: 490
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
its still a major hastle to take someone to court if they breach the contract - and will be made especially difficult if its in another country.
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Yes it is and in the lowcost segment where I am talking about now, i wouldnt do it in 80% of the cases. It is more practical to just move on and spread the news about what happened.
There really was only one occasion in the last years when we needed to involve legal pressure and that case produced good results for us. We didnt lose any money, hardware was swiftly returned, the contract canceled in our favor, the other company had to pay our legal costs and they even went out of business some months later. It showed that our strategy of documenting ALL communication exchanges and rephrasing all important decisions "for clarification purposes" was 100% right and to do more financial background checks for deals in the future
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
as an interesting little fact since round 10, server costs have dropped dramatically due to enhancements which allow the use of fewer servers - so we are activly trying to suppress costs
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Thats good to hear
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3 Aug 2004, 12:25
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#141
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Retired
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rogaland, Norway
Posts: 642
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Cutting spinners paycheck isnt an option. Stop spending insane money on expensive stuff when you can get the same level of quality for a lot cheaper is what Jolt has to do. Also introducing new methods of generating revenue. In this thread theres a lot of good ideas for both of the above points.
-TheRat
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Retired
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3 Aug 2004, 12:28
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#142
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th0ng gimp
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
tbh i don;t have a clue about how the whole jolt + simtech thing works, but here is a guess:
simtech gets all services e.g. staff, servers etc at cost from jolt.
simtech gets money from account paymnets
if income>expenditure then simtech invests more into pa or jolt takes the profits.
in that simtech will ahve had large losses last year due to long round 10 development and a free round we are probably only just getting to the stage where simtech has an overall profit since its creation (assuming it was created solely for PA) - hence this is why jolt are only just starting to talk about spending money etc.
hence as such i expect more investement in the future and many more possibilites - as such many of the good money making ideas thrown around will not be in round 12 and possibly not even in round 13, but after that who knows.
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Amen brother
Let now all sing hymn no. 59 onward christian soldiers!
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3 Aug 2004, 12:56
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#143
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Inactive peon
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
/me remembers rumad scares him
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3 Aug 2004, 13:01
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#144
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th0ng gimp
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
/me remembers rumad scares him
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think of wha I do to my financial director and the 2 managing directors I work with then,
Accountants own all ;D
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3 Aug 2004, 13:34
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#145
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Jolt's best friend
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,101
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
tbh i don;t have a clue about how the whole jolt + simtech thing works, but here is a guess
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while it's great that pateam finally seems to have someone who'll finally talk to the community - what's the point of you guessing how things work? as a pateam member, you should either be able to find out and tell us, get someone else to tell us, or tell us that you can't tell us (and leave us speculating, and we all know where that went with the BBW fiasco).
here's my guess:
jolt, simtech and nildram are all related companies, i'm told they're all part of some company called accent holdings, or some such.
therefore, simtech - ie, pa - is run to break even, and this is what biffy etc tell us.
however
simtech leases hardware and bandwidth off jolt. they have to pay the 'oppertunity cost' of the servers. as the oppertunity cost is what jolt could charge if the servers were being used as clanservers they're obviosuly making a profit out of pa - even if simtech is making a loss, i'd bet that jolt is getting paid.
i seem to recall you saying something about how pa pays for the bandwidth it uses. as the clanservers don't appear to pay extra for bandwidth, that's another profit for jolt, even if simtech's loosing money. this possibly filters further down the line, as i suspect that bandwidth is bought off nildram, who're probably making a proffit selling it to jolt.
therefore, i'd suggest that while simtech quite possibly is making a loss, jolt and nildram are both quite possibly making a proffit out of it. ah the wonders of internal accounting. THIS is why i believe planetarion is hosted at jolt, rather than any issues of convenience or legality.
as always, these are only opinions and guesses. i look forward to being proved incorrect.
-mist
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<Karmulian> subtle as a kick in the nuts as always
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3 Aug 2004, 15:01
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#146
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th0ng gimp
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
while it's great that pateam finally seems to have someone who'll finally talk to the community - what's the point of you guessing how things work? as a pateam member, you should either be able to find out and tell us, get someone else to tell us, or tell us that you can't tell us (and leave us speculating, and we all know where that went with the BBW fiasco).
here's my guess:
jolt, simtech and nildram are all related companies, i'm told they're all part of some company called accent holdings, or some such.
therefore, simtech - ie, pa - is run to break even, and this is what biffy etc tell us.
however
simtech leases hardware and bandwidth off jolt. they have to pay the 'oppertunity cost' of the servers. as the oppertunity cost is what jolt could charge if the servers were being used as clanservers they're obviosuly making a profit out of pa - even if simtech is making a loss, i'd bet that jolt is getting paid.
i seem to recall you saying something about how pa pays for the bandwidth it uses. as the clanservers don't appear to pay extra for bandwidth, that's another profit for jolt, even if simtech's loosing money. this possibly filters further down the line, as i suspect that bandwidth is bought off nildram, who're probably making a proffit selling it to jolt.
therefore, i'd suggest that while simtech quite possibly is making a loss, jolt and nildram are both quite possibly making a proffit out of it. ah the wonders of internal accounting. THIS is why i believe planetarion is hosted at jolt, rather than any issues of convenience or legality.
as always, these are only opinions and guesses. i look forward to being proved incorrect.
-mist
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This is based on what hinch said when the take over was first announced.
The real issue is what is simtech payng to jolt? And what profit are they making from that.
Geoff's reponse through Kal never really answered the question and Kal seems unable to answer the question, but as simtech is a totally separate company to jolt (who host and make a small profit (you have limited returns at companies house because you have less than 500k turnover)), and your arrangement with Nldram who provide service for jolt (which hinch says are interconnected somehow and not just through hosting).
PA can't have used much bandwidth when it had delayed production time for round 10 because it wasnt using any bandwidth so your argument about loosing money over that is minimal. Admittedly the free round probably did lose money, but as it was only a short round I doubt it lost Jolt "that much money".
Now if pa is profitable or not is a issue for simtech, but how much are jolt making off simtech for the infrastructure costs?
All I can see is jolt making cash off the PA community through selling same stuff they sell to there clans and there own premium services, without putting that much back into the PA community.
More effort needs to be made from the team leader for simtech and ultimately PA. I sometimes wonder if PA was bought just to be a cash cow for jolt rather than doing anything practical for the community.
PA has many revenue streams some of which would require little fundng, but if put in place could have big pay backs for the game and ultimately its owners. No real plan for PA seems to be in place and little seems to be done to improve the community as a whole (game is shiet and little money is put into development, and no improvement plan in place). Its a shame fr a community I have ben part of for the best part of 3 years ![Frown](images/smilies/frown.gif) .
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Last edited by Rumad; 3 Aug 2004 at 15:21.
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3 Aug 2004, 15:12
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#147
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Inactive peon
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
PA can't have used much bandwidth when it had delayed production time for round 10 because it wasnt using any bandwidth so your argument about loosing money over that is minimal. Admittedly the free round probably did lose money, but as it was only a short round I doubt it lost Jolt "that much money".
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Rememeber the was the server rentla and the paying a lto more than just spinner back them - i belive spinner/fudge/zeus were all piad then, we had more servers then - costs were HUGE then.
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3 Aug 2004, 15:12
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#148
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Jolt's best friend
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,101
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
does simtech *have* any employees?
i gather spinner is employed by jolt?
-mist
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<Karmulian> subtle as a kick in the nuts as always
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3 Aug 2004, 15:16
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#149
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th0ng gimp
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in th0ngland
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Rememeber the was the server rentla and the paying a lto more than just spinner back them - i belive spinner/fudge/zeus were all piad then, we had more servers then - costs were HUGE then.
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Did simtech pay them?
As far as i an remember it was all profit related so they had to get real jobs.
So i don't think thats true either.
And would they really pay for a server rental they aren't using? ope not becuase thats n way t run a business (my old compay rented/bought servers and cmpaq could deliver at a weeks notice I am sure Jolt can/did do something similar and I am sure this cost was minimal too (unless they are that bad at warning there suppliers!)
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Last edited by Rumad; 3 Aug 2004 at 15:25.
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3 Aug 2004, 15:16
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#150
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Let battle commence
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England
Posts: 732
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Re: Responses from Jolt to your questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
does simtech *have* any employees?
i gather spinner is employed by jolt?
-mist
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none and correct. (afaik)
__________________
Mit
http://tim.igoe.me.uk - Development Blog
Whats on TV now - UK TV Guide
<Mendosa> mit is a cute cudlly toy that will be in the shops by christmas
<mig-work> ur now my eternal fav pa god
<Squiz> i name thee, Sir Mit
<Zeus> u my friend are a true gamer ![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif) I knew u were
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