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Unread 7 Feb 2009, 00:30   #1
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Downtime procedure

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Originally Posted by Barrow|Pony View Post
Dear powers that be,

Now would be an excellent time to revisit the rollback/recall policy. We could talk about this in an open, rational way without the passionate cries of "WT****ING**** U TOOK MY ROIDS."

Or, you could wait until the server dies again and we go through the whole she-bang one more time for posterity.
I think this would be a perfect time to discuss the downtime procedure for the rest of this round (although hopefully it won't need to be used again) and future rounds, now that we know that they will be taking place.

I think that the recalling of fleets is un-necessary as it gives certain people advantages. Especially those who already have a high number of roids, as it just allows them more time to mine them before they can be stolen. The fact that the ticker is stopped for 24 hours is good enough. People have suggested keeping the game open, but not ticking, for those who won't be able to get online the next day to recall (after all, these are the people being protected by the recalling of fleets are they not?), and I think this is a very reasonable idea.

In short; please remove the recalling of fleets when downtime occurs. There are other ways to ensure that those who won't be around the next day to recall can do so safely.
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Unread 7 Feb 2009, 01:38   #2
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Re: Downtime procedure

And use the most recent backup, not the "fairest".

Backing up to 279 might have been fair for some but it completely screwed me over, so I don't see how "fair" is justified, in a war game it can never be fair for all
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Unread 7 Feb 2009, 01:39   #3
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Re: Downtime procedure

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Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
People have suggested keeping the game open, but not ticking, for those who won't be able to get online the next day to recall (after all, these are the people being protected by the recalling of fleets are they not?), and I think this is a very reasonable idea.
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Unread 7 Feb 2009, 02:57   #4
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Re: Downtime procedure

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Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
I think that the recalling of fleets is un-necessary as it gives certain people advantages. Especially those who already have a high number of roids, as it just allows them more time to mine them before they can be stolen.
That depends upon the time the ticker is rolled back to and the time that ticks restart. This rollback, you was right in your assumption and some players got to keep roids for 24hours longer but that could easily be solved by tweaking the procedure to start ticks later or rollback to a earlier tick.

The recalling of fleets is never to give people the roids back who had them taken away but it is there to stop some people landing and other people not being able.. depending on when the ticker was rolled back to. The general assumption is either everyone who was going to gain roids when the ticker broke should be able to still gain them or no-one should.

Quote:
The fact that the ticker is stopped for 24 hours is good enough. People have suggested keeping the game open, but not ticking, for those who won't be able to get online the next day to recall (after all, these are the people being protected by the recalling of fleets are they not?), and I think this is a very reasonable idea.
This is the argument for the early launchers. Just bcus i have the option the recall, does not make that option fair. If i would of landed downtime, how does giving me the option to recall help me keep my roids? if im eta 5, it means the defending galaxy has the next 24 hours (while ticks are stopped) to find the ships ingal to stop me cap'ing. That is not fair.

Quote:
In short; please remove the recalling of fleets when downtime occurs. There are other ways to ensure that those who won't be around the next day to recall can do so safely.
Its not about giving the option for people to recall, its about ensuring that everybody lands (who would of if there was no down time) or nobody does.



The main problem people have with the current procedure is the fact that those people who were getting roided get to keep the roids for 24hours (sometimes shorter but going by this rollback which is fresh in everyones memory.. its 24hours). I'm not going to include the other arguments unless someone can find a rational thing wrong with them (which isnt just a case of you missed some roids so you've gone emo).

This main solution to this, is simply rolling back 8-12hours further:
Rollback to 18:00-20:00 the previous day (with fleet recalls) and then start ticks at 18:00-20:00. This stops everyone landing as usual but then goes one step further.. it also neutralises the added resources the planets who should of been roided gets (As effectively, we've just turned the clock back 24hours.. so they only get to keep the roids until you attack again (presumably the same time you attacked before)). This can also limit downtime, i.e. if the game went down at 10:00, it can be back up at 18:00-20:00.
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Unread 7 Feb 2009, 12:03   #5
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Re: Downtime procedure

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
And use the most recent backup, not the "fairest".

Backing up to 279 might have been fair for some but it completely screwed me over, so I don't see how "fair" is justified, in a war game it can never be fair for all
Scrapping the recaling of fleets makes this redundant, rolling it back to 279 was to stop lots of people landing whilst others would have their fleets recalled. If fleets weren't recalled then people would still land in subsequent ticks.

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
The general assumption is either everyone who was going to gain roids when the ticker broke should be able to still gain them or no-one should.
The only people who are sure to get roids are those who are through at eta 4 and below without any defence/hidden prod on their target. Nobody at eta 5 or above is really guaranteed roids in most circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
This is the argument for the early launchers. Just bcus i have the option the recall, does not make that option fair. If i would of landed downtime, how does giving me the option to recall help me keep my roids? if im eta 5, it means the defending galaxy has the next 24 hours (while ticks are stopped) to find the ships ingal to stop me cap'ing. That is not fair.
I didn't understand the first part, but as to the 2nd part - it's a lot more fair than letting only those who landed early be the only ones to cap, and letting those who have a roidlead mine the roids for an extra period.
If your fleet is at eta 5, there is no guarantee that you're through anyway. If your fleet is through at eta 4 and it gets rolled back, that is unfair.
Also the galaxy may have more time to organise def, but 24 hours of ticks being frozen doesn't exactly allow them to pull def fleets out of thin air. People will still have the same problems; lack of the necessary fleet(s). Some people will be affected by it, but it's far better than the situations created by the current rollbacks. Someone gets unlucky. Luck seems to play quite a big part in PA. Tough shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
This main solution to this, is simply rolling back 8-12hours further:
Rollback to 18:00-20:00 the previous day (with fleet recalls) and then start ticks at 18:00-20:00. This stops everyone landing as usual but then goes one step further.. it also neutralises the added resources the planets who should of been roided gets (As effectively, we've just turned the clock back 24hours.. so they only get to keep the roids until you attack again (presumably the same time you attacked before)). This can also limit downtime, i.e. if the game went down at 10:00, it can be back up at 18:00-20:00.
Yeah this is a brilliant idea, all of you who stay up all night planning elaborate defences to steal ships/gain salvage, or planning attacks, your hard work goes down the ****ing drain! Also anyone that has landed a fake; ha I bet you feel like a moron because the next time you use it against that ally/galaxy/player it'll be expected.

Every procedure has its share of people who miss out. With my suggestion, some of the people who are eta 5-6 will get a little more defence than they normally would have, anyone who is still at an eta for alliance def is likely to get quite a lot (being short on time is usually never a problem for gal def, whilst it is for allies) but your fleet will only have been flying for a tick or two so recalling it doesn't cost much. In fact it'll just make it easier to recall/relaunch because some of the defenders won't be around.
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Unread 7 Feb 2009, 15:16   #6
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Re: Downtime procedure

Rollback leave fleets though.
Have a simple tick box as you login. Rather than logging in the game properly . It just says by clicking this box i recall FLEET 1/ FLEET 2 / FLEET 3 . Etc.

then open game properly one hour before first tick. If you still crash its your own fault.
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Unread 7 Feb 2009, 17:52   #7
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Re: Downtime procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
The only people who are sure to get roids are those who are through at eta 4 and below without any defence/hidden prod on their target. Nobody at eta 5 or above is really guaranteed roids in most circumstances.
When the game crashed, the people who were ETA 2-4 (i.e. got through) will now be 5-8.. they are gauranteed to get though, now they are not.

Quote:
I didn't understand the first part, but as to the 2nd part - it's a lot more fair than letting only those who landed early be the only ones to cap, and letting those who have a roidlead mine the roids for an extra period.
If your fleet is at eta 5, there is no guarantee that you're through anyway. If your fleet is through at eta 4 and it gets rolled back, that is unfair.
Also the galaxy may have more time to organise def, but 24 hours of ticks being frozen doesn't exactly allow them to pull def fleets out of thin air. People will still have the same problems; lack of the necessary fleet(s). Some people will be affected by it, but it's far better than the situations created by the current rollbacks. Someone gets unlucky. Luck seems to play quite a big part in PA. Tough shit.
Its never fair to allow some people to land and not others. In some circumstances its even a case of allowing some alliances to land and not others (depending on each alliances LT). If you're eta 5 at the rollback tick, then you would be ETA 4 or below when the gme went down, so there was the gaurentee.

If you have to use the lines 'tough shit', your idea isnt really fair.

Quote:
Yeah this is a brilliant idea, all of you who stay up all night planning elaborate defences to steal ships/gain salvage, or planning attacks, your hard work goes down the ****ing drain! Also anyone that has landed a fake; ha I bet you feel like a moron because the next time you use it against that ally/galaxy/player it'll be expected.
Yes, DC's and BC's (and i guess scanners) have a right to complain about it but they didnt lose anything but time. The DC's who worked hard to get there alliance planets covered, will still of done there job as no-one gets landed on...

The fake argument is rather silly, not as if people only use 1 fake per round.

Quote:
Every procedure has its share of people who miss out. With my suggestion, some of the people who are eta 5-6 will get a little more defence than they normally would have, anyone who is still at an eta for alliance def is likely to get quite a lot (being short on time is usually never a problem for gal def, whilst it is for allies) but your fleet will only have been flying for a tick or two so recalling it doesn't cost much. In fact it'll just make it easier to recall/relaunch because some of the defenders won't be around.
You're procedure allows early launchers to land and screws over late launchers. This can turn into a big deal if one alliance attacks early and the other later...

As i said before, its either everyone lands (who would of previously) or no-one lands otherwise its unfair.
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Unread 7 Feb 2009, 20:15   #8
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Re: Downtime procedure

Without getting involved in the above discussion ...

How about fixed rollback targets? There could be a fixed target rollback time around 0600 GMT, i.e., which is clearly before any (systematically large scale organized) landings are to occur.

Downside of this is of course the potential for abuse; alliances could target to land 0500 GMT - but this problem (some cap, some don't) is inherent to the entire rollback discussion. In fact, if alliances chose to take this path, this will imply late evening launch times (~2200 GMT depending on ETAs), thereby breaking the usual attack time cycle.
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Unread 7 Feb 2009, 20:33   #9
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Re: Downtime procedure

Any kind of "fixed" policy will result in whining when you end up on the wrong side of the resolution.
On the other hand, having a dynamic policy, something not set in stone, will inevitably result in claims of bias when you end up on the wrong side of the resolution.

There is no "perfect solution", but there are certainly ways of reducing the damage, applying a bit of common sense always helps!
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Unread 7 Feb 2009, 22:41   #10
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Re: Downtime procedure

Man, I wanted to stay out of this discussion aswell but the arguements being used are so god damn awfull I can't help myself.

Honestly, I don't really give a damn is <person A> got to land and <person B> didn't. What I care about is those people that are making an effort don't have all their efforts in danger of being deleted. That goes for both offense and defense, having the fleets auto recalled is in no way satisfying for a good dc. It all becomes a waste of time then. Yes some idiot will be cheeky and say its all a waste of time, but we all play this game for various reasons and if we didn't care we wouldn't put in the effort. That driving force for a pa player should not be messed with because it WILL make even more people quit.

On offense its a sheer disaster, targeting/fakes/crossallyco-ops and various other tactics are all given away. Honestly, the only people who are in favour of what happend the last time was those losing out and those who weren't gaining. Personally I really don't see why a 12 hour break while the problem is fixed isn't enough, but nm that. I'd GLADLY give a galaxy 24 hours to sort def against my attack if it meant the two waves in front of me got the landing they were supposed to, pretty much every pa player should feel this way unless he is shit.

Now, I don't have much clue about how database backup works, but seems to me you should be able to back it up every 30 min, doesn't even have to be on the tick if that causes too much load. That way its possible to both rollback closer to when the problem started and also gives you more backups to work with. From my understanding it was a choice to rollback this many ticks, there were working backups of the other ticks but for some reason policy was changed. Man its not even hard to imagine such a scenario, you shouldn't have to "learn" how to deal with downtime by having it happen. So sit down PA TEAM, THE or find a group of people that actually play the game at a level where these things matter and rewrite the ****ing policy and from that point use it pretty please, better than these jugdement calls which are now apparently allowed.
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Unread 8 Feb 2009, 08:02   #11
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Re: Downtime procedure

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Honestly, I don't really give a damn is <person A> got to land and <person B> didn't. What I care about is those people that are making an effort don't have all their efforts in danger of being deleted. That goes for both offense and defense, having the fleets auto recalled is in no way satisfying for a good dc. It all becomes a waste of time then. Yes some idiot will be cheeky and say its all a waste of time, but we all play this game for various reasons and if we didn't care we wouldn't put in the effort. That driving force for a pa player should not be messed with because it WILL make even more people quit.
So your saying allowing one alliance to land and not another wouldnt cause outrage or cause people to quit? You may not care but if/when it happends, they'd be massive wajning.. and it would be especially sad if that decided the outcome of a round (be it planet ranks or alliance ranks).

[quote]
On offense its a sheer disaster, targeting/fakes/crossallyco-ops and various other tactics are all given away. Honestly, the only people who are in favour of what happend the last time was those losing out and those who weren't gaining. Personally I really don't see why a 12 hour break while the problem is fixed isn't enough, but nm that. I'd GLADLY give a galaxy 24 hours to sort def against my attack if it meant the two waves in front of me got the landing they were supposed to, pretty much every pa player should feel this way unless he is shit.
[quote]

Targetted is a disaster in some ways, in others its not affected at all. Every top galaxy in planetarion gets intel that they are going to be attacked prior to the attack anyway, relaunching at them again after the rollback changes nothing.
Fakes arnt effected, Every DC knows for instance that any ETD fleet could just be a fake.. it doesnt matter if they faked before or havent.. it still needs covering.
CrossAlly-coops are also leaked in advance usually.

Most galaxys (if not all) who have the pleasure of being the first galaxy to be cross-alliance attacked by two alliances (i.e. giving away they are joint attacking) usually get that intel way before the attack even launches.. Its usually also clear who is allied to who.

Your argument of 'id gladly let a galaxy get 24hours to sort def against me if the 2waves infront got to land' doesnt hold up either. As its again not a case of just you and your alliance but everyone else. If one alliance got all there lands uneffected due to launching earlier and one got stuck at eta 5-7.. how is that fair?

Quote:
Now, I don't have much clue about how database backup works, but seems to me you should be able to back it up every 30 min, doesn't even have to be on the tick if that causes too much load. That way its possible to both rollback closer to when the problem started and also gives you more backups to work with. From my understanding it was a choice to rollback this many ticks, there were working backups of the other ticks but for some reason policy was changed. Man its not even hard to imagine such a scenario, you shouldn't have to "learn" how to deal with downtime by having it happen. So sit down PA TEAM, THE or find a group of people that actually play the game at a level where these things matter and rewrite the ****ing policy and from that point use it pretty please, better than these jugdement calls which are now apparently allowed.
Hard policys dont work and every downtime needs to be a different approach as it includes different circumstances. Thats the problem with a strict downtime procedure, the only thing it does is deter claims of 'Bias' being thrown at the PA Team.

What needs to be done is a mixture of the two, multiple downtime procedures written.. with the PA Team picking which one is applicable to the situation (For example, one for when hardly any fleets are flying, one for when some people would of have landed and not others, one for where everyones landed, or no-ones launched yet, etc).


In conclusion, dont call everyone in a thread stupid for posting suggestions, then follow it up by arguing that you dont care if one alliance gets to land and not another as if in some fantasy land that is remotely fair.
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Unread 8 Feb 2009, 10:06   #12
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Re: Downtime procedure

just because the game is down doesnt mean everyone get a lot more fleetslots. Most fleets would still carry on and not be affected at all by the downtime
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Unread 8 Feb 2009, 13:22   #13
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Re: Downtime procedure

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
So your saying allowing one alliance to land and not another wouldnt cause outrage or cause people to quit? You may not care but if/when it happends, they'd be massive wajning.. and it would be especially sad if that decided the outcome of a round (be it planet ranks or alliance ranks).
All alliances would land, did you not get the point at all? Ye sure some waves will have more time to get defended against but this is not a very big issue, reasons for that have already been discussed earlier in the thread so scroll up if you still don't get why.


Quote:
Most galaxys (if not all) who have the pleasure of being the first galaxy to be cross-alliance attacked by two alliances (i.e. giving away they are joint attacking) usually get that intel way before the attack even launches.. Its usually also clear who is allied to who.

Your argument of 'id gladly let a galaxy get 24hours to sort def against me if the 2waves infront got to land' doesnt hold up either. As its again not a case of just you and your alliance but everyone else. If one alliance got all there lands uneffected due to launching earlier and one got stuck at eta 5-7.. how is that fair?
This is 100% pure bullshit, normal galaxies do not get such intel and which alliances are attacking together can easily change day by day, as such yes, it is a big deal. I don't see the problem at all with the second part, these fleets will in the majority of the cases land like they would have without downtime, even for the alliance attacking late it is alot better to have 50% of their lands affected instead of 100%.

Quote:
Hard policys dont work and every downtime needs to be a different approach as it includes different circumstances. Thats the problem with a strict downtime procedure, the only thing it does is deter claims of 'Bias' being thrown at the PA Team.

What needs to be done is a mixture of the two, multiple downtime procedures written.. with the PA Team picking which one is applicable to the situation (For example, one for when hardly any fleets are flying, one for when some people would of have landed and not others, one for where everyones landed, or no-ones launched yet, etc).


In conclusion, dont call everyone in a thread stupid for posting suggestions, then follow it up by arguing that you dont care if one alliance gets to land and not another as if in some fantasy land that is remotely fair.
I guess since you are new, you don't see this, but pa team don't actually have much clue with how the game is being played. Implanting quests in the middle of landing ticks is just the latest example of this. Asking them to make jugdement calls is a disaster waiting to happen and in previous rounds the downtime procedure has also been followed much more strictly, in no way a perfect solution but much more fair to everyone. Also, the stupid part was mainly aimed at you.

once again:
no auto recall = few people affected = GOOD
Auto recall = 90% of the active players affected(some positive some negative) = BAD
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Unread 8 Feb 2009, 14:38   #14
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Re: Downtime procedure

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Any kind of "fixed" policy will result in whining when you end up on the wrong side of the resolution.
On the other hand, having a dynamic policy, something not set in stone, will inevitably result in claims of bias when you end up on the wrong side of the resolution.

There is no "perfect solution", but there are certainly ways of reducing the damage, applying a bit of common sense always helps!
Quoted for truth.
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Unread 9 Feb 2009, 07:19   #15
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Re: Downtime procedure

Then maybe we could talk about ditching the 'one-size-fits-all-except-when-it-doesn't' policy that was employed this time around.

Regardless of what discussion ends up happening, it's just plain stupid to not have the discussion now and to wait until something else cocks up.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 17:36   #16
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Re: Downtime procedure

What about having a 'preference' in your preference screen, where you just tick off or on

'In case of a 24 hour downtime, I would like to see my fleets recalled from and to my planet'
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 17:48   #17
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Re: Downtime procedure

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
What about having a 'preference' in your preference screen, where you just tick off or on

'In case of a 24 hour downtime, I would like to see my fleets recalled from and to my planet'
yeah, if i get incs i click the (pls recall fleets if downtime occurs) and if i am only attacking myself i just unclick it again

sounds like a good solution

there is NO need at all to recall fleets!!!
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 20:17   #18
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Re: Downtime procedure

recalling the fleets saved valle from crashing all his BS on fuzzy

so keep up the solid work PATeam!
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 21:55   #19
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Re: Downtime procedure

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Originally Posted by stay_posi View Post
recalling the fleets saved valle from crashing all his BS on fuzzy

so keep up the solid work PATeam!
Everyone knows he will crash them on someone else later this round, so thats irrelevant though.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 22:35   #20
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Re: Downtime procedure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
What about having a 'preference' in your preference screen, where you just tick off or on

'In case of a 24 hour downtime, I would like to see my fleets recalled from and to my planet'
I like this idea, in principle, though it needs a bit of tweaking (the 24 hour part, mostly).
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 08:57   #21
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Re: Downtime procedure

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I like this idea, in principle, though it needs a bit of tweaking (the 24 hour part, mostly).
Yeah and ofcourse some form of 'delay' that your preference goes in effect after 24 hours or so. (or 16) So that anything pl'd or whatever on you now still gets to land (unless ofcourse they already set their preference.)

This basically means that the universe gets split up in 'hard' and 'softcore' planets. And that the responsibility for fleetcrashes is moved from the PA Team to the players.

Also any alliance who think they will 'lose' in an upcoming war and actively encourage their people to go to the 'softcore' setting (it should only be changeable once every 7 days or so, or not at all ...) would get more morale damage from that signalling message then from the actual benefit of the eventual roleback.
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 09:16   #22
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Re: Downtime procedure

From a personal POV i quite like Knight Theamion's idea, especially that it would effect both outgoing and incomming fleets, it would need alot of warnings and reminders to do it, what about if *softcore* is the default and *hardcore* the option ?
A quest to make sure people know the option is there ?
How long that would take to code and wether its possible to place into the current code would have to be the deciding factor, and ofc none of us know wether that is an option.

But cookies to Knights Theamon for comming up with a soloution to the i wont be here to recall problem that all downtimes create, and the current system is attempting to solve.
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 09:21   #23
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Re: Downtime procedure

make it recall by default and have the option to not recall in preferences

very nice idea
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 12:13   #24
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Re: Downtime procedure

Just to be clear.....

The suggestion is to have your choice of recall setting apply to the incs due to land at your planet as well as to your fleets due to land at other planets?

I can see problems with both options but I prefer to know which I should be pointing out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
Make a tick box on the preference page where you state that you want to be involved in any 'recall' action or not. This means that fleets to or from your planet will get recalled
Ah - I found my answer.....

So the "problem" is this:

A def call is covered by two (or more fleets). One is recalled and the other isn't. Carnage ensues. The same goes for joint attacks.
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 12:15   #25
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Re: Downtime procedure

I like theamon's idea.

Can the game be accessible during these 24h?


Otherwise there will be horrendous ****ups when people can't get online to recall, or some defence recalls, others doesn't etc.
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Unread 16 Mar 2009, 07:33   #26
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Re: Downtime procedure

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Just to be clear.....

The suggestion is to have your choice of recall setting apply to the incs due to land at your planet as well as to your fleets due to land at other planets?

I can see problems with both options but I prefer to know which I should be pointing out.



Ah - I found my answer.....

So the "problem" is this:

A def call is covered by two (or more fleets). One is recalled and the other isn't. Carnage ensues. The same goes for joint attacks.

defence would be dependant on the defended planets setting, not on the defender planet.

joint attacks can ofcourse be cocked up, but once again, the responsibility is with the players now, not the PA Team as you pretty much have 24 hours to contact your attack partners about their settings and if it gets back online you can JGP the target to see if your buddies are still there or if they are pussies!
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