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Unread 10 Oct 2012, 05:26   #1
Chro
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suggestion about sk's

my suggestion is take them out of the game ... enough said
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Unread 10 Oct 2012, 07:45   #2
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Re: suggestion about sk's

why?
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Unread 10 Oct 2012, 09:05   #3
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Re: suggestion about sk's

make SKs a new class : Drones (can research independantly from the ships)
and give the planets the ability to build Anti Drone Batteries (a new building)
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Unread 10 Oct 2012, 09:18   #4
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Re: suggestion about sk's

I see no reason to change SKs, and none has been provided in this thread.
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Unread 10 Oct 2012, 15:22   #5
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Re: suggestion about sk's

I have been saying it for ages within CT, and prolly once on the forums too, I would very much prefer to change SK from destroying structures to rendering them inoperable for an x amount of ticks, needing time to 'repair' them. The effect would still be that the target cannot use them, but it just takes too long to rebuild them. Could even make a population setting for it: the higher the % set to repait buildings, the faster it repairs, whith 0% meaning no repairs at all.
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Unread 10 Oct 2012, 15:46   #6
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Re: suggestion about sk's

Make them steal buildings!
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Unread 10 Oct 2012, 18:23   #7
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Re: suggestion about sk's

Remy's idea is worth considering
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Unread 10 Oct 2012, 20:53   #8
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Remy's idea is worth considering
Agreed. I would even say that Makhil's idea puts a fun twist to sk's in general.
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Unread 10 Oct 2012, 21:20   #9
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Re: suggestion about sk's

I see no reason to change them really.

Yes - they do set you back if you are SK'd repedeatly, but as they normally are setup in stats they are off class and can fairly easy be fended off even if a big wawe lands.

Also, they are rarely used by most - so I do not see this as a mayor problem in PA, but rather a nice touch in war or similar.
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Unread 10 Oct 2012, 23:06   #10
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Re: suggestion about sk's

SK's are for the allies with nothing better to do. Resource stealers are a lot more productive.
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Unread 11 Oct 2012, 00:50   #11
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Originally Posted by DG View Post
SK's are for the allies with nothing better to do. Resource stealers are a lot more productive.
I would say resource stealers are;

- A great way to farm
- A great asset for late starters

Both cases not all to useful in my opinion.
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Unread 11 Oct 2012, 05:10   #12
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Originally Posted by Motti View Post
I would say resource stealers are;

- A great way to farm
- A great asset for late starters

Both cases not all to useful in my opinion.
It also only helped those who were able to posses them, but they were really good for the round that they were in
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Unread 11 Oct 2012, 07:00   #13
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Originally Posted by Motti View Post
Also, they are rarely used by most - so I do not see this as a mayor problem in PA, but rather a nice touch in war or similar.
They're used by App as a standard way of attacking. Try to block their waves when they've decided to take you down.
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Unread 11 Oct 2012, 12:12   #14
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
They're used by App as a standard way of attacking. Try to block their waves when they've decided to take you down.
True, Apprime had no rules against SKing.

But that is one tag, less then 60 planets. Where most did not use them even if they were "allowed".

Still, in my opinion not a mayor issue in Planetarion.

I belive the only alliance who were seriously and repedeatly targetted by SKs were THE FOCKERS, simply to reduce the distorter count on their planets.

But, correct me if im wrong, I belive that had no mayor impact on them in the end.
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Unread 11 Oct 2012, 15:16   #15
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Originally Posted by Motti View Post
True, Apprime had no rules against SKing.

But that is one tag, less then 60 planets. Where most did not use them even if they were "allowed".

Still, in my opinion not a mayor issue in Planetarion.

I belive the only alliance who were seriously and repedeatly targetted by SKs were THE FOCKERS, simply to reduce the distorter count on their planets.

But, correct me if im wrong, I belive that had no mayor impact on them in the end.
Tbh there is no major issue with Sks. I just think a mix up of what they can do round to round might make the game 1% more interesting. Right now even 1% is helpful.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 09:17   #16
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Originally Posted by DG View Post
SK's are for the allies with nothing better to do. Resource stealers are a lot more productive.
i agree changing them to resource steal would be great .... sk's just seem way over the top, it's bad enough getting roided/losing ships but if someone was to also on top of that hit you with alot of sk's would make some people just want to leave the game .... it's an unnecessary nastiness and there's plenty of nastiness already ingame
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 09:19   #17
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Re: suggestion about sk's

Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
SK's are for the allies with nothing better to do. Resource stealers are a lot more productive.
Productivity is only one side of the equation. Destroying your opponent's ability to gain score is just as good as boosting your own ability to gain same. Being able to do both is good for games.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 09:32   #18
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Re: suggestion about sk's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chro
i agree changing them to resource steal would be great .... sk's just seem way over the top, it's bad enough getting roided/losing ships but if someone was to also on top of that hit you with alot of sk's would make some people just want to leave the game .... it's an unnecessary nastiness and there's plenty of nastiness already ingame
So for you, losing your buildings is worse than losing your ships?
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 09:36   #19
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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So for you, losing your buildings is worse than losing your ships?
yes ... i don't mean if they send a few k of them i'm meaning more with some that would build lots and lots of them .... losing quite a few of each building could set you back quite abit esp since some can take 9+ hours to just rebuild one
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 09:42   #20
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Re: suggestion about sk's

or maybe if they only took out amps and blockers .....
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 09:57   #21
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Re: suggestion about sk's

You can only lose 10% of your structures per tick to SKs.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 10:21   #22
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Re: suggestion about sk's

With 100 structures that's 10. What time does it take to rebuild 10 buildings? And what time does it take to create 1k SK ships? Ain't that a little overproportional?

I like Makhils suggestion and Remy's. Maybe combine them?
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 10:25   #23
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Re: suggestion about sk's

but you can run your fleets if looks bad, can't run buildings and 10 structures @ 9hrs per build is 90hrs (3.75 days) to get those back which is alot when having plans to be adding new buildings rather then replacing ... i would much rather see them take out amps and blockers and increase the damage output myself
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 11:06   #24
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Re: suggestion about sk's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan View Post
With 100 structures that's 10. What time does it take to rebuild 10 buildings? And what time does it take to create 1k SK ships? Ain't that a little overproportional?

I like Makhils suggestion and Remy's. Maybe combine them?
Fleetcatches kill tons of ships. How long does it take to rebuild 500k value worth of ships on 500 roids?




That said, I do recognize the problems with SKs and I would prefer seeing them put more into a war-only role. A building that kills SKs is useless, just by building them you're already hurting yourself as much as you would be hurt if you got hit by SKs.

I like Remy's idea of repairing better, but I don't think it would make SKs less common. Quite the opposite. There is currently a fairly high barrier of entry, because many people feel bad about SKing people, and don't like doing it. (Also, are there really alliances who have rules against using SKs? Because that's hilarious.) So, counter-intuitively, making SKs hurt less will make people use them more. I don't have a problem with that, but if that's not your goal you probably shouldn't argue for it.

My suggestion would be to make roiding and SKing mutually exclusive, to an extent. Sending only combat ships and roiders gives you a maximum roid cap of 25%, which is perfect for random galraiding. But if you're at war with someone and you want to SK them? Fine, but every building you destroy lowers your roidcap by 1-2%, subject to balancing.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 11:13   #25
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Re: suggestion about sk's

both fleetcatching and sk sucks for the game as many players just quit the round when it happens to them. And when someone quits a round in pa, there's a good chance they wont be coming back. Then again people quit over other stuff aswell(such as being roided) so its a question on how mylittlepony we want the game to be to keep the most amount of players playing. I liked how we did it a few rounds back with only one race having sk.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 11:46   #26
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Re: suggestion about sk's

also with talk of building loss that's one tick ... some player could hit you with 3 waves one after each and if in an alliance war you could expect alot worse and probably has been
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 12:09   #27
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
both fleetcatching and sk sucks for the game as many players just quit the round when it happens to them. And when someone quits a round in pa, there's a good chance they wont be coming back. Then again people quit over other stuff aswell(such as being roided) so its a question on how mylittlepony we want the game to be to keep the most amount of players playing. I liked how we did it a few rounds back with only one race having sk.
Yah i think we should compete in initiating roids and disable launching fleets.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 12:39   #28
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Re: suggestion about sk's

i shall explain what made me to bring this up .... during beta i found a target with over 600sk's and practically no other ships so thought it was probably another planet not playing beta so i sent 3 attack waves one after the other and before they even landed in retaliation he sent 3 waves of 200k+ sk's and **no pods** and i didn't even land so i then recalled all 3 fleets and he didnt even recall one ... sure it was only beta BUT obviously there are people out there that would do this in a real round and in a real round it would truely s*ck being hit 3 waves of sk's
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 12:41   #29
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Originally Posted by Hunterrrr View Post
Yah i think we should compete in initiating roids and disable launching fleets.
This is an unfair response. Plaguuu explicitly acknowledged that you cannot and should not remove all frustration from the game. Your sarcastic reply completely ignores that acknowledgement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chro View Post
i shall explain what made me to bring this up .... during beta i found a target with over 600sk's and practically no other ships so thought it was probably another planet not playing beta so i sent 3 attack waves one after the other and before they even landed in retaliation he sent 3 waves of 200k+ sk's and **no pods** and i didn't even land so i then recalled all 3 fleets and he didnt even recall one ... sure it was only beta BUT obviously there are people out there that would do this in a real round and in a real round it would truely s*ck being hit 3 waves of sk's
First of all, just because something happens in beta (or havoc) most definitely does not mean it also happens in the 'real round'. Secondly, you would get defended in the real round. Thirdly, a planet with ridiculous numbers of SKs would by necessity be completely crippled in every other regard, making them much less dangerous than even normal non-SK planets. Fourthly, SKs are weak. 2m value worth of SKs takes only 1m value in ships to wipe out:

Stopping 125000 Behemoth (2000k) as t1 requires Chimera: 182693 (1516k) Dragon: 95000 (1391k) Shadow: 163794 (1130k) Clipper: 143940 (1122k))
Stopping 167000 Haunt (2004k) as t1 requires Harpy: 584500 (1402k) Banshee: 467600 (981k) Vendor: 467600 (1215k)
Stopping 143000 Termite (2002k) as t1 requires Drake: 171600 (1338k) Peacekeeper: 134063 (965k) Pirate: 99768 (987k)
Stopping 134000 Basilik (2010k) as t1 requires Chimera: 113385 (941k) Dragon: 58960 (863k) Shadow: 101656 (701k) Clipper: 89334 (696k)
Stopping 196000 Galleon (2009k) as t1 requires Drake: 172480 (1345k) Peacekeeper: 134750 (970k) Pirate: 100280 (992k)
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 12 Oct 2012 at 12:54.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 12:42   #30
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Re: suggestion about sk's

Thats what i was doing last round, it was a lot of fun
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 13:42   #31
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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but you can run your fleets if looks bad, can't run buildings and 10 structures @ 9hrs per build is 90hrs (3.75 days) to get those back which is alot when having plans to be adding new buildings rather then replacing ... i would much rather see them take out amps and blockers and increase the damage output myself
To be honest.

People are landing attacks for roids which have a bigger repayment period then 3-4 days.

Is that not worse?
And really, its a fair enough part of the game. Each wawe landed with SK is capped at 10%. They also target more heavily structures you have a lot of (which gives you some kind of advantage).

For example, a planet with a lot of distorters who day after day fake attack someone, will get a relativly larger portion of his distorters destroyed. Which then perhaps makes that planet scannable?

A planet, typical scan planet, has a lot of amplifiers. Again, more amplifiers then other structures will be destroyed. Which then perhaps reduces that planets (alliance) advantage in the ability of scanning almost everyone.

Is this so bad? Can we not be allowed to try and remove advantages?

Every planet who focus on one or few parts of the game gains an advantage through that, i.e unscannable, can scan all.

Why should structures be so much more special and valuable then ships and/or roids?

The consensus seems to be that you will be wawed and wawed with SK. But is that not if it happends mostly towards high ranking planets? Who normally have the ability and backing to atleast stop some of it?
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 14:19   #32
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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For example, a planet with a lot of distorters who day after day fake attack someone, will get a relativly larger portion of his distorters destroyed. Which then perhaps makes that planet scannable?
nah, last round i had loads of dist but i lost mostly my factories.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 14:30   #33
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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nah, last round i had loads of dist but i lost mostly my factories.
Well, from battle reports I tend to recall that whichever structure you have the most of gets most structures destroyed.

But, if you have for example

light fact : 5
med fact : 5
heavy fact : 5

Distorter : 15

I would assume you get most distorters destroyed, but one of each factory or something.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 15:00   #34
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Re: suggestion about sk's

I think (but I'm not sure) that SKs 'prefer' destroying FCs, refs, dists and amps.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 15:15   #35
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Well, from battle reports I tend to recall that whichever structure you have the most of gets most structures destroyed.
I don't think it works that way - although I'm sure someone could provide a definitive answer to how SKs prioritise their targets. However, if they did target the most numerous structures it would make them even more effective - given that each successive building (of each type) is more expensive than the previous one. I'd much rather lose my 5th factory than my 60th Finance Centre.

Having said that, I've never liked SKs for many of the reasons stated above - not least of which was eksero's throwaway line that he uses them because he enjoys it. We abolished PDS many, many rounds back because they couldn't run away from overwhelming attacks and they at least had the chance to fire at their attackers first. Modern constructions just die and, as has been said, take a long time (and a lot of resources) to replace.

To those who say that losing ships is worse, of course I agree - but losing your fleet is (usually) the result of carelessness.

To those who say that SKs are easy to destroy - that's true unless they're combined with a partner's attack fleet composed of "real" ships in the same class.

To those who say "this is a war game", I also agree - I already consider the use of SKs as an act of war. Perhaps we should restrict the use of SKs to targets with whom your alliance is at war (in game). This would at least prevent the randoms from being bombed back to the stone age. Alternatively, we could adopt Mzyxptlk's idea and have a penalty on the roid cap if SKs are present although I'd take it a step further and make the attackers choose either roids or structures.

Just my tuppenceworth.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 15:43   #36
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Re: suggestion about sk's

btw when i said beta i meant havoc
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 16:01   #37
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
To those who say "this is a war game", I also agree - I already consider the use of SKs as an act of war. Perhaps we should restrict the use of SKs to targets with whom your alliance is at war (in game).
I think there's some sense in this, and it would help make the ingame politics system more complete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
This would at least prevent the randoms from being bombed back to the stone age. Alternatively, we could adopt Mzyxptlk's idea and have a penalty on the roid cap if SKs are present although I'd take it a step further and make the attackers choose either roids or structures.
I don't think it's necessary to ask people to make an explicit choice. The fact that your roid cap will be significantly reduced if you send SKs should be enough. How harsh the trade-off between roiding and SKing should be is then just a matter of balancing. I'm leaning towards the lower end of that spectrum, though.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 16:40   #38
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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To those who say "this is a war game", I also agree)
i'm surprised more hadn't said this ... the thing is yes it is a war game but that doesn't mean it's a ruin someone else game to the point they no longer wish to play .... need a healthy balance without pushing players to far ... games are supposed to be enjoyed by all but seems some are intent on and take great joy in ruining games for others .... not just talking pa every game when there is any pvp you have those that do these things
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 18:02   #39
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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i shall explain what made me to bring this up .... during beta i found a target with over 600sk's and practically no other ships so thought it was probably another planet not playing beta so i sent 3 attack waves one after the other and before they even landed in retaliation he sent 3 waves of 200k+ sk's and **no pods** and i didn't even land so i then recalled all 3 fleets and he didnt even recall one ... sure it was only beta BUT obviously there are people out there that would do this in a real round and in a real round it would truely s*ck being hit 3 waves of sk's
Hah, it has been known for people to build them for you to land on and steal when you're a zik, used to be a nice valueloss!
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 18:17   #40
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Fleetcatches kill tons of ships. How long does it take to rebuild 500k value worth of ships on 500 roids?
Can a fleet less the value of his enemy fleetcatch and destroy that fleet? The amount of work you need to put in to successfully fleetcatch is much bigger than destroying days worth of construction time by simply "hiding" some ships inside your fleet.
You'll say that most fleetcatches are done by bigger teamups - but again - that also takes more time and planning than just putting some ships on your prod.
SK is not only overpowered but also frustrating.

If you don't want to totally change them, go for Remy's suggestion
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 18:26   #41
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Re: suggestion about sk's

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Can a fleet less the value of his enemy fleetcatch and destroy that fleet?
How often do you think a small planet successfully SKs a bigger planet? Because I don't know about you, but when I see SKs in an incoming fleet, I know that defense for the target should be a priority. Just like with a fleetcatch, really. This is part of the reason why people brag much more about SKing than they do about roiding; it's an actual achievement.

Those two rather obvious observations then lead us to a very natural conclusion: since sending SKs with your attack fleet actually lowers your odds of landing, smart players only send them when it's more important to hurt the target than it is to gain roids. In war, for example.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 19:36   #42
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Re: suggestion about sk's

Also an idea. Roidloss is capped at 25% and sk at 10%, but roid cap is shared amongst all fleets so if its 5 equal fleets they steal 5% each but you only need one of the fleets to have sks to kill 10% (right?) instead have it so that the 10% is shared amongst the five fleets giving them the ability to kill 2% each. That way you dont get thoose huuuge fights and a just small planets fleet with sk's killing 10% of your stuff, but you still have the opportunity to sk war if most of the members contribute in the war.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 19:49   #43
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Re: suggestion about sk's

i wish that is/was implented already
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 19:59   #44
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Re: suggestion about sk's

I cant say i like the damned things, but i understand their strategic value in war.

My alliance is only allowed to use them in times of direct warlike conflict against another alliance ( not galaxy raids) and we dont force building them even then, so for me a position of only in times of war is a good idea.
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Unread 12 Oct 2012, 22:00   #45
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Re: suggestion about sk's

set limit to 5% or better yet - immune to SK 100 ticks after first loss, status would show, with ticks left, on P scan.
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 04:18   #46
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Re: suggestion about sk's

those that do use them prob will have every target they hit as an enemy the target wouldn't forget so in the long run you would prob be crazy to use them ... i myself won't use them unless it's payback for being sk'ed myself
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 08:20   #47
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Re: suggestion about sk's

maybe - maybe not, plaguu had a fair assumption, the fact that some in PA only play for the misfortune of others with no care for their own planet, makes SK's a tool that harms more than it does good. rendering it useless for a period of time on the same target could be a way to reduce the - "I'll SK your planet the entire round because I don't care shit about this game and you"
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 21:14   #48
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Re: suggestion about sk's

i like cheese
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 21:15   #49
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Re: suggestion about sk's

you're a strange one Chro
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