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Unread 3 Jul 2004, 21:17   #1
Methedrine
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Better forum moderation

From the Alliance Discussion Forums, this thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyodor
Different people react to things differently. Its really not what you say, its how the other person takes it. Ive made jokes about silly things on irc which have caused the person i joked about to not come onto irc for 3 days. Some people have thicker skin then others :P
I totally agree to what Fyodor said there. However, it's always a matter of picking the right words. Cynic comments like...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
Dear methanphooban:

Faggotry- Blatant acts of gayness.

Your sensitivity and hiding does imply that you are sort of a weak person. So in a way, I did exploit that. I am sorry for hurting your feelings, and I hope you don't wet your bed tonight.
are far more entertaining to read than stuff that for example Hicks posted (which luckily got deleted by a mod). If you chose wrong words you are likely to scare new people away from the forums - which is in most cases a first step to scare them away from the game itself. Reading to a lot of threads I wonder whether these official forums are even moderated. My suggestion would therefore be to get more active moderators or none at all. I understand that moderators cannot spend 24/7 watching every single thread, but when they would start from some point on to watch the new threads and replies to those the overall environment on especially the alliance discussion forum would get a lot friendlier and most likely lead to more interesting threads from more people. More people posting increases also the chance that they will tell their friends about Planetarion and it's community - which as a longterm effect would mean more paying customers.
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Unread 3 Jul 2004, 21:26   #2
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Re: Better forum moderation

The moderators are volunteers. They do their best. Usually they are on it closely. You just were unlucky.

I think you just hit a very sensitive point, trying to convince all alliances to go target 1up. That probably triggered them to flame you, thus trying to get the thread closed. War is not only faught on the battlefield.
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Unread 3 Jul 2004, 21:34   #3
Methedrine
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie
The moderators are volunteers. They do their best. Usually they are on it closely. You just were unlucky.

I think you just hit a very sensitive point, trying to convince all alliances to go target 1up. That probably triggered them to flame you, thus trying to get the thread closed. War is not only faught on the battlefield.
I have seen a lot of offtopic posting to threads, which falls under spam according to the forum rules. Anyways, it's not just because of the rules, it is that due to these offtopic postings a lot of discussions simply get drawn away from the original thread, and then after some time of offtopic spam the topic is simply forgot about.

Also, the mods are volunteers - ok. But that does mean that they have at least some time (I assume one hour) per day to take a look at "their" forum. If they don't have the time they shouldn't be a moderator.

So in the end it was more a general attempt than these flames on my thread, which I actually have no real problem with as long as things don't go insulting towards one or the other and nobody drags a thread away from its topic.
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Unread 4 Jul 2004, 07:41   #4
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Re: Better forum moderation

i agree with what metheredine has to say, the forum are not moderated, i know that the moderator are volunteer, but go to other forum, you will more likely see that the same volunteer mod ambushes every off-topic post or insultive topic and delete it or move it, i think we should have some more strict rules on AD and PD at least, if we want more constructive comment.
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Unread 4 Jul 2004, 08:56   #5
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Re: Better forum moderation

I admit I've been a bit lax on moderating recently. I normally try to avoid aggressively deleting posts, but recently some people have been taking things too far.

I'll be moderating much more aggressively from now on. Also, remember that you can report offensive posts to the moderators - these reports do get read, and are acted upon.
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Unread 4 Jul 2004, 16:44   #6
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Re: Better forum moderation

People who bitch about the state of modding never report posts.
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Unread 4 Jul 2004, 16:46   #7
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie
The moderators are volunteers. They do their best.
That's bullshit. The moderators are for the most part a bunch of sycophants who want 'power' on an internet forum.
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 12:15   #8
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Re: Better forum moderation

theyre still volunteers though,right? and also moderating is time-consuming and they should be thanked for what they do, i dont wanna be doin it. im not sure what sycophants are and if they want *power* but even if they are *sycophants*(did u mean psychopaths?)...so what,its not doing any damage.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 19:43   #9
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Re: Better forum moderation

Sycophant : A suck up, someone who socially engineers themselves into a position of influence usually through contstant bootlicking.

I don't honestly believe that the mods fall quite under that category, I've seen worse (on a fair few other games) put it that way. It's not like there is any particular advantage in controlling the boards here since a bad mod will be in turn accountable to a commercial entity (Jolt) somewhere along the line if they overstep their mark too much.

Btw Methedrine / Heartless, please start using your real account, this act is getting a bit old.

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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 20:39   #10
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Re: Better forum moderation

*waits for a mod to delete methedrine as a shell account*

oh, the irony

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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 11:27   #11
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
*waits for a mod to delete methedrine as a shell account*

oh, the irony

-mist
Indeed... irony ++ in fact

Credit where credit's due Heartless, you had a good cover, but anyone looking at a side by side comparison of both accounts indicates a few major questions, like the fact that heartless stopped posting, and a day or two after Meth appears. (I wonder if this is what multihunting feels like?)

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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 18:39   #12
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty1234
theyre still volunteers though,right?
Yes. But a lot of them volunteer for the 'wrong reasons'.
Quote:
and also moderating is time-consuming
No it's not. It doesn't require any more time than active reading of the forum would in the first place. And if you don't already spend that time, you shouldn't be modding.

Quote:
and they should be thanked for what they do
No they shouldn't. Thanking a mod has absolutely no purpose. A thanks is not a reward. A good mod's primary reward is looking at a forum with good discussion and few pointless flames/trolls.

Quote:
i dont wanna be doin it.
Then don't volunteer.

Quote:
im not sure what sycophants are
To quote dictionary.com (which it would've taken you about 15 seconds to check for yourself):

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sycophant
syc·o·phant P Pronunciation Key (sk-fnt, sk-)
n.
A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people.
Quote:
and if they want *power* but even if they are *sycophants*(did u mean psychopaths?)...so what,its not doing any damage.
Yes it is. A good moderator, as previously mentioned, sees a good discussion as a positive thing. A sycophant doesn't give a shit about that, they just want people to thank them, from both sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
I don't honestly believe that the mods fall quite under that category, I've seen worse (on a fair few other games) put it that way.
It's gotten better, but it used to be pretty bad.

Quote:
It's not like there is any particular advantage in controlling the boards here since a bad mod will be in turn accountable to a commercial entity (Jolt) somewhere along the line if they overstep their mark too much.
That hardly matters. They are volunteers, thus not accountable to much at all. Anyway, it's not the power abuse that is/was the problem. Problematic mods just carry the title as a mark of superiority over the masses.

Quote:
Btw Methedrine / Heartless, please start using your real account, this act is getting a bit old.
And it's getting really, really old watching 1up people gloat about knowing who Methedrine really is. It's hardly a problem that he's decided to use a different account. Methedrine has clearly showed that he's not a gimmick account and he's not doing anything wrong by posting under one account instead of another. Not only that, but he's contributed more good discussion to AD than you have since his inception. So get off your high horse and try to focus on actually adding something to the discussion (like you did earlier in your post).
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 20:04   #13
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
No it's not. It doesn't require any more time than active reading of the forum would in the first place. And if you don't already spend that time, you shouldn't be modding.
Actually your wrong there, it requires significantly more time. Where as a normal poster has the choice to hit the back button on a post they have no intrest in mods have to continue reading AND come back to it every time a new post is made. Also its not uncommon for a mo to have to make a responce to a post, especially on the PA related forums. Editing/Deleting posts and threads can also be time consuming
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 22:28   #14
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Actually your wrong there, it requires significantly more time. Where as a normal poster has the choice to hit the back button on a post they have no intrest in mods have to continue reading AND come back to it every time a new post is made. Also its not uncommon for a mo to have to make a responce to a post, especially on the PA related forums. Editing/Deleting posts and threads can also be time consuming
I dunno if you realize this, but that's my other account...
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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 11:17   #15
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
I dunno if you realize this, but that's my other account...
And your point is?
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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 16:07   #16
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
And it's getting really, really old watching 1up people gloat about knowing who Methedrine really is. It's hardly a problem that he's decided to use a different account. Methedrine has clearly showed that he's not a gimmick account and he's not doing anything wrong by posting under one account instead of another. Not only that, but he's contributed more good discussion to AD than you have since his inception. So get off your high horse and try to focus on actually adding something to the discussion (like you did earlier in your post).
That might be because the "shell" account, I will credit you that it's a little better than degrading it with the term "gimmick" because it's not a pure troll account, but it is designed to advance a particular set of agendas, it's another tool of propaganda that is oft used on the boards by attempting to lend credence to a particular bias by introducing "impartial" or "third-party" observers who can angle the conversation in a way that favours the original user.

It also implies that for whatever reason the original poster lacks the conviction or integrity to stand by the words that they funnel through their shell account. In effect using the shell to live vicariously whilst at the same time presenting assessments which are pretty much like opinions with the exception he attempts to frame them as being accurate or truthful.

I don't usually bother getting involved in forums aside from doing a little trolling of my own or the odd occasional snipe at someone who displays darwin award winning cluelessness, but at least I have the decency to actually stand by my own words when I say them.

Nova

And since it seems like disclaimers are becoming all the rage -

The above post is purely the opinion of the named poster and is no way indicitative or representative of the opinions of the poster's alliance
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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 19:04   #17
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
And your point is?
That I know how much time it takes to moderate a forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
That might be because the "shell" account, I will credit you that it's a little better than degrading it with the term "gimmick" because it's not a pure troll account, but it is designed to advance a particular set of agendas, it's another tool of propaganda that is oft used on the boards by attempting to lend credence to a particular bias by introducing "impartial" or "third-party" observers who can angle the conversation in a way that favours the original user.
Or perhaps people have so much bias against the poster that he needs a new account for people to actually look at what he's saying and not who is saying it. Methedrine has made a lot of posts that indicate no real agenda, and while he's critical to 1up, he's no more so than anyone not in 1up. And the difference between a gimmick account and an extra account is pretty large, about the size of a ban. Go read the rules
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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 19:17   #18
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Re: Better forum moderation

id like to point out that afaik not a single mod who currently works on the moderator team 'volunteered'

they were all hand picked by myself and other mods based on their posting and general attitude. The ones who approach us are rarely (if ever) given the chance.
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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 20:06   #19
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
That I know how much time it takes to moderate a forum.

Or perhaps people have so much bias against the poster that he needs a new account for people to actually look at what he's saying and not who is saying it. Methedrine has made a lot of posts that indicate no real agenda, and while he's critical to 1up, he's no more so than anyone not in 1up. And the difference between a gimmick account and an extra account is pretty large, about the size of a ban. Go read the rules
Referring to the poster by their shell nick is only lending credence to the illusion that this account is a seperate identity, which it is pretty apparent it is not. I am undecided if the agenda or bias in his posts in my eyes would qualify it as a "gimmick" account, which is why I refrained from using the term. However I feel that someone who feels they require a seperate account has already in doing so indicated that they have proven themselves to have a "bad" reputation, and therefore anything that poster says must be treated with at the very least a healthy dose of scepicsm and viewed as being potentially tainted, would you not agree?

One would have to ask if his posts would be identical if it were someone other than 1up leading, if the answer to that is "yes" then he would be proven unbiased, and would not need to have ever resorted to the shell account, if no then it's a "gimmick" account and should be treated as such.

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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 20:14   #20
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
Referring to the poster by their shell nick is only lending credence to the illusion that this account is a seperate identity, which it is pretty apparent it is not.
Then just reply to him as Heartless instead of calling him out. I don't really care about your opinion of him. There's nothing wrong in what he did, you're just being a dick about it.
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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 20:48   #21
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Then just reply to him as Heartless instead of calling him out. I don't really care about your opinion of him. There's nothing wrong in what he did, you're just being a dick about it.
An interesting saying springs to mind : "When you can't attack the argument, attack the person."

I think that concludes this little conversation, pleasant though it was

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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 22:13   #22
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
That I know how much time it takes to moderate a forum.
Well you post on your other account seems to indicate you clearly dont know how much extra work it requires, either that or you're actually not doing your job right


Quote:
Originally Posted by JammyJim
id like to point out that afaik not a single mod who currently works on the moderator team 'volunteered'

they were all hand picked by myself and other mods based on their posting and general attitude. The ones who approach us are rarely (if ever) given the chance.
I'd like to point out your wrong there, you didnt hand pick me and I actually was recruited via volenteering around what would have been about end of r1, start of r2. Messiah asked for volenteers, I was enjoying the game and spent alot of time here so thought id give something back
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Unread 17 Jul 2004, 10:16   #23
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
One would have to ask if his posts would be identical if it were someone other than 1up leading, if the answer to that is "yes" then he would be proven unbiased, and would not need to have ever resorted to the shell account, if no then it's a "gimmick" account and should be treated as such.

Nova

Do you want me to sum up my posts (the pro-1up and anti-1up ones) and send you a copy of my passport to show it's not a gimmick (nor an extra) account? You are simply representing the stuff I feared before signing up to those boards... "Be careful, most people on those boards are children and whiners, if you point out things they will call you biased, no matter which side." And then people wonder why there are rarely new people appearing on the forums (or why people do not stay in this game)?
Don't try be a hypocrite my friend, in the end you are none.

Besides, this person called 'Heartless' has posted recently.

Regards,
Methedrine
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Unread 17 Jul 2004, 19:55   #24
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methedrine
Do you want me to sum up my posts (the pro-1up and anti-1up ones) and send you a copy of my passport to show it's not a gimmick (nor an extra) account? You are simply representing the stuff I feared before signing up to those boards... "Be careful, most people on those boards are children and whiners, if you point out things they will call you biased, no matter which side." And then people wonder why there are rarely new people appearing on the forums (or why people do not stay in this game)?
Don't try be a hypocrite my friend, in the end you are none.

Besides, this person called 'Heartless' has posted recently.

Regards,
Methedrine
An interesting tactic... shunt the burden of proof from the defendant to the person making the accusation, maybe a mod should compare IP's of both accounts and make an informed decision.

If both accounts are found to have a matching IP, then your protestations are useless and without merit, if they are not then you may feel vindicated, although there will always be those of us who have doubts as to your credibility. In part due to the fact you display an inherent knowledge beyond the average "newbie" (you may take that as a compliment).

By effectively making this statement you are essentially asking a mod to validate whether you are an individual in your own right, or as most of us suspect, a shell account designed to promote a particular set of agendas (which you have concealed thus far with some degree of efficiency). Would you be happy for a mod to examine and compare your accounts to satisfy the critics among us and prove your existence?

Nova
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Unread 17 Jul 2004, 20:41   #25
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
An interesting saying springs to mind : "When you can't attack the argument, attack the person."

I think that concludes this little conversation, pleasant though it was

Nova

Excuse me, but are you referring to jester calling you a dick or you claiming methedrine being someone else makes all of his arguments invalid?

I am confused


PS The burden of proof does lie on the person making the accusation in general. It's called innocent until proven guilty.


PPS Since the creation of this thread Jester has been appointed by JJ as AD moderator. One hopes this will improve the quality of posting on AD. However I would stress that unless well thought-out threads with a valid point (and proper grammar) are posted you're unlikely to have a vast improvement on the forum.
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Unread 17 Jul 2004, 20:53   #26
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Excuse me, but are you referring to jester calling you a dick or you claiming methedrine being someone else makes all of his arguments invalid?

I am confused


PS The burden of proof does lie on the person making the accusation in general. It's called innocent until proven guilty.


PPS Since the creation of this thread Jester has been appointed by JJ as AD moderator. One hopes this will improve the quality of posting on AD. However I would stress that unless well thought-out threads with a valid point (and proper grammar) are posted you're unlikely to have a vast improvement on the forum.
In reference to your primary reason for posting, it's the former, him making a personal attack on me effectively is an admission on his part that he is not able to mount a valid rebuttal to my arguments (unless calling me a dick is a rebuttal).

In reference to the first PS - I believe that there is enough circumstantial and quantitive evidence to at least give the accusation a particular level of validity. However, without something concrete they will never be more than just accusations based on partial truths.

In reference to the second (PPS) - No person is ever without bias, and short of having something akin to an automated bot which triggers on certain rules (like X people reporting a post) then there is always going to be some argument of partisanship based on the mods preferences. I would however find it distasteful to moderate a forum purely on the basis that every post would have to conform to some set of invisible "standards". This is PA after all, not kuro5hin or slashdot.

Nova
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Unread 17 Jul 2004, 21:04   #27
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
In reference to your primary reason for posting, it's the former, him making a personal attack on me effectively is an admission on his part that he is not able to mount a valid rebuttal to my arguments (unless calling me a dick is a rebuttal).
I'm unsure as to why who methedrine is remains important though? Surely his arguments should be judged on their merits rather than some vague pre-conceived idea of inherent bias thus rendering them entirely irrelevant and pointless to respond to?

Quote:
In reference to the first PS - I believe that there is enough circumstantial and quantitive evidence to at least give the accusation a particular level of validity. However, without something concrete they will never be more than just accusations based on partial truths.
Indeed. This doesn't really mean much though.

Quote:
In reference to the second (PPS) - No person is ever without bias, and short of having something akin to an automated bot which triggers on certain rules (like X people reporting a post) then there is always going to be some argument of partisanship based on the mods preferences. I would however find it distasteful to moderate a forum purely on the basis that every post would have to conform to some set of invisible "standards". This is PA after all, not kuro5hin or slashdot.
I think that, for me, jester and aryn, any element of partisanship is going to be fairly negligible considering none of us are members of one of the top alliances currently. I'd hope any bias would be towards people who make a genuine effort to post well composed, insightful arguments. As for "standards" you are aware we have rules aren't you? Some posts are "better" than others (in the ways that are important to us as members of the forum). Some posts will be looked on more favourably due to how they're written and the points they make. This is the nature of discussion.
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Unread 17 Jul 2004, 21:23   #28
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm unsure as to why who methedrine is remains important though? Surely his arguments should be judged on their merits rather than some vague pre-conceived idea of inherent bias thus rendering them entirely irrelevant and pointless to respond to?
Who methedrine is in reality would substantially affect the level of credibility his posts carry, most people in AD are dismissed with a pinch of salt as trolls (I even admit to making an occasional troll post in AD, who doesn't?).

The problem is that methedrine attempts to frame a lot of his posts as fact, which makes establishing his credibility a lot more important, had he done these posts as heartless then it may have taken time for him to have got the same message across, but on the same token I feel people would respect that a lot more since it shows a much higher degree of conviction and belief in the words he posts up. My opinion of methedrine/heartless is that it is still a shell account, and that there is a level of trolling done, but it's a far subtler form of troll than say people like Rumad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
think that, for me, jester and aryn, any element of partisanship is going to be fairly negligible considering none of us are members of one of the top alliances currently. I'd hope any bias would be towards people who make a genuine effort to post well composed, insightful arguments. As for "standards" you are aware we have rules aren't you? Some posts are "better" than others (in the ways that are important to us as members of the forum). Some posts will be looked on more favourably due to how they're written and the points they make. This is the nature of discussion.
The standards I refer to are probably different from the standards you are thinking of. All forums tend to have a baseline set of "rules" which all posters must abide by, but some mods will impose additional criteria over and above those basic requirements (this is usualy most prevalent when a forum is pre-moderated) , this is something I would find a shame if it were to be applied to PA in any way shape or form.

I hope this clarifies the original points I was intending to make.

Nova
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Unread 17 Jul 2004, 22:28   #29
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
An interesting tactic... shunt the burden of proof from the defendant to the person making the accusation, maybe a mod should compare IP's of both accounts and make an informed decision.

If both accounts are found to have a matching IP, then your protestations are useless and without merit, if they are not then you may feel vindicated, although there will always be those of us who have doubts as to your credibility. In part due to the fact you display an inherent knowledge beyond the average "newbie" (you may take that as a compliment).

By effectively making this statement you are essentially asking a mod to validate whether you are an individual in your own right, or as most of us suspect, a shell account designed to promote a particular set of agendas (which you have concealed thus far with some degree of efficiency). Would you be happy for a mod to examine and compare your accounts to satisfy the critics among us and prove your existence?

Nova
I thought a mod would have checked the IP already on request of someone. Seems not so, so please, compare my IP with this other persons one.
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Unread 17 Jul 2004, 22:43   #30
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
Who methedrine is in reality would substantially affect the level of credibility his posts carry, most people in AD are dismissed with a pinch of salt as trolls (I even admit to making an occasional troll post in AD, who doesn't?).
I disagree. Most people apply their own biases to the poster. If Methedrine is in fact Heartless, he only sought to eliminate any bias for and against him. I would like to point out again, there is nothing wrong with this. One of the great things about the internet is that you are behind a field of anonymity. People don't judge you based on what they see, but what you say. And it's a pity people on AD often hold strong biases against certain nicks just because of alliance affiliation or similar. Therefore it's an inherent privilege for everyone to register a new account and post under it, rather than the worn out personality, so to speak.

If it offends you that you all of the sudden can't claim that 'oh, ignore that post, it's just so-and-so ranting again', then I can't help you, but I remain convinced that the problem here is your insistance that everyone has a duty to keep you informed as to who it is posting. They don't, and it's a good thing. You should be glad you're given chances like these to challenge your prejudice.

Quote:
My opinion of methedrine/heartless is that it is still a shell account, and that there is a level of trolling done, but it's a far subtler form of troll than say people like Rumad.
If you think Methedrine is a troll then you hold a much, much higher standard for what is acceptable behavior than anyone on this forum can ever hope to reach. Trolling is posting to provoke only negative responses or disagree simply to provoke. Methedrine's posts provoked many positive reactions. It may be difficult to distinguish heated discussion from 'negative reactions', but to a long time troll, I saw them as good posts. I disagree with a lot of his conclusions, but I still respect him for his posts.

Incidentally, many of the deleted posts in his threads belong to 1up posters who are trolling, often by attacking the fact that he's a newly registered poster. Odd how that works out, isn't it?

Quote:
The standards I refer to are probably different from the standards you are thinking of. All forums tend to have a baseline set of "rules" which all posters must abide by, but some mods will impose additional criteria over and above those basic requirements (this is usualy most prevalent when a forum is pre-moderated) , this is something I would find a shame if it were to be applied to PA in any way shape or form.
I find it ironic that you attack Methedrine for not abiding to some unspoken rule that you must post with your one and only account which is recognized as tied to an IRC personality, alliance history and so on, but claim that posts should not be held to any such standard of what is acceptable behavior.
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Unread 17 Jul 2004, 22:50   #31
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methedrine
I thought a mod would have checked the IP already on request of someone. Seems not so, so please, compare my IP with this other persons one.
While this is not at all conclusion, none of Methedrine's IPs match any other posters on AD.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 01:17   #32
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
I disagree. Most people apply their own biases to the poster. If Methedrine is in fact Heartless, he only sought to eliminate any bias for and against him. I would like to point out again, there is nothing wrong with this. One of the great things about the internet is that you are behind a field of anonymity. People don't judge you based on what they see, but what you say. And it's a pity people on AD often hold strong biases against certain nicks just because of alliance affiliation or similar. Therefore it's an inherent privilege for everyone to register a new account and post under it, rather than the worn out personality, so to speak.

If it offends you that you all of the sudden can't claim that 'oh, ignore that post, it's just so-and-so ranting again', then I can't help you, but I remain convinced that the problem here is your insistance that everyone has a duty to keep you informed as to who it is posting. They don't, and it's a good thing. You should be glad you're given chances like these to challenge your prejudice.
Ah yes, the great field of internet anonyminity Where people can behave like virtual jerks without the fear of a real time smack in the mouth. Whilst it is everyone's "priviledge" as you so put it, people like myself, who have been on the internet for kind of a long time, are proud of the identities we have cultivated for ourselves, whether people appreciate my opinions or not , and I am more than happy to discuss when my opinions have been proven fallible or incorrect.

Your assumptions about what motivates me and my reasons for challenging methedrine's identity are not yours to speculate upon in addition to being incorrect, I disclosed that I held the belief that Methedrine was a "shell" account for another user and that he was using it as a virtual "paper bag" to cover his face whilst posting material people would often see as being motivated for other agendas for that exact reason. Speculating outside that is offtopic for the purposes of this discussion, and therefore irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
If you think Methedrine is a troll then you hold a much, much higher standard for what is acceptable behavior than anyone on this forum can ever hope to reach. Trolling is posting to provoke only negative responses or disagree simply to provoke. Methedrine's posts provoked many positive reactions. It may be difficult to distinguish heated discussion from 'negative reactions', but to a long time troll, I saw them as good posts. I disagree with a lot of his conclusions, but I still respect him for his posts.

Incidentally, many of the deleted posts in his threads belong to 1up posters who are trolling, often by attacking the fact that he's a newly registered poster. Odd how that works out, isn't it?
Again, you make a fundamental flaw in your logic on a few different counts, a troll does not post purely for negative reactions, that is generally flamebait, a troll post, a good one follows the following criteria: The post must contain a majority of factual information, but be based on a fundamentally incorrect asssumption or conclusion with the desired effect of inciting disagreement between posters. Methedrine's posts follow that template to the letter. Hence the reasons for me not responding in anything more than a trivial capacity, because he attempts to construe the data in particular ways as opposed to leaving such conclusions open.

You make the same point that I am attacking the account purely on date principle, which again is logically incorrect, since my account is not "old" by any means either, does that make me a "shell" account? I challenged the validity of the account purely on the grounds that Methedrine has hinted in a response to another users identity, knowingly or unknowingly, and displayed some inconsistencies in dates and times of posting which were indicative of a "shell" account being set up. I called him on it, and you have responded that the evidence indicates otherwise, for the purposes of this discussion that is satisfactory to me, although I won't get involved too heavily in methedrines posts since they are designed for particular purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
I find it ironic that you attack Methedrine for not abiding to some unspoken rule that you must post with your one and only account which is recognized as tied to an IRC personality, alliance history and so on, but claim that posts should not be held to any such standard of what is acceptable behavior.
Nice conversational dodge jester, most people don't wilfully misinterpret a post unless they are trying to cirvumvent the primary thrust of the argument and to maneuver it to a ground where they may hold a moral or logical advantage

My statement was thus : "The standards I refer to are probably different from the standards you are thinking of. All forums tend to have a baseline set of "rules" which all posters must abide by, but some mods will impose additional criteria over and above those basic requirements (this is usualy most prevalent when a forum is pre-moderated) , this is something I would find a shame if it were to be applied to PA in any way shape or form."

Now, the interpretation that should have been applied :

Most boards have the same standard set of rules, in rare cases moderators in an attempt to raise the quality of discussion will apply a form of "meta-moderation" to posts by stripping out obvious trolls and flames from threads, usually fairly agressively, PA boards have not yet been subject to such moderation and I would find it a shame if it were applied now.

The intention was to question whether you will impose such "meta-moderation" to AD in an attempt to forcefully raise the quality of discussion and debate on there given JohnnyBGood implied that is a possibility.

Nova
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 02:08   #33
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
Ah yes, the great field of internet anonyminity Where people can behave like virtual jerks without the fear of a real time smack in the mouth. Whilst it is everyone's "priviledge" as you so put it, people like myself, who have been on the internet for kind of a long time, are proud of the identities we have cultivated for ourselves, whether people appreciate my opinions or not , and I am more than happy to discuss when my opinions have been proven fallible or incorrect.

Your assumptions about what motivates me and my reasons for challenging methedrine's identity are not yours to speculate upon in addition to being incorrect, I disclosed that I held the belief that Methedrine was a "shell" account for another user and that he was using it as a virtual "paper bag" to cover his face whilst posting material people would often see as being motivated for other agendas for that exact reason. Speculating outside that is offtopic for the purposes of this discussion, and therefore irrelevant.
Dear Blacknova,

the internet is first of all a place for research and communication. It's not a place where one should seek for anonymity just to discriminate others - not for compensating one's failures in real life nor for anything else.
If there's nothing for third parties to speculate about your motivation to challenge something, then - and excuse me here - you should simply not post it into public. If you post in public, especially in a discussion, you have to respect other people for their different view points. I do, however, agree with the final words of your statement: this topic has been nicely driven away from it's initial statement, thus any discussion is irrelevant for this topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
Again, you make a fundamental flaw in your logic on a few different counts, a troll does not post purely for negative reactions, that is generally flamebait, a troll post, a good one follows the following criteria: The post must contain a majority of factual information, but be based on a fundamentally incorrect asssumption or conclusion with the desired effect of inciting disagreement between posters. Methedrine's posts follow that template to the letter. Hence the reasons for me not responding in anything more than a trivial capacity, because he attempts to construe the data in particular ways as opposed to leaving such conclusions open.
I have to disagree with you on this part. A troll is, quite simply, tearing threads off-topic or insulting third-parties. Everything else is simply a discussion. Maybe you have missed these lections in your education (and this is not meant as an insult nor as an personal attack, its only purpose is to state out where your logic fails) but a discussion always involves at least two, if not even more, different viewpoints. The purpose of a discussion is to find a consent between these viewpoints, i.e. proving others are wrong and accepting that you are wrong sometimes as well. Following your "template for trolling" would be propaganda. Propaganda is, quite simply, having one opinion and only allowing this one opinion with simple disagreement of all other presented points. If you want to convince people of something, and I stated that in a different thread already, you need arguments - water-proof, rock-solid arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
You make the same point that I am attacking the account purely on date principle, which again is logically incorrect, since my account is not "old" by any means either, does that make me a "shell" account? I challenged the validity of the account purely on the grounds that Methedrine has hinted in a response to another users identity, knowingly or unknowingly, and displayed some inconsistencies in dates and times of posting which were indicative of a "shell" account being set up. I called him on it, and you have responded that the evidence indicates otherwise, for the purposes of this discussion that is satisfactory to me, although I won't get involved too heavily in methedrines posts since they are designed for particular purposes. [...] Nova
This makes one a) ponder why you are associating me with someone else and b) what kind of purpose you read out of my postings. I could go into an indepth analysis on why you might think so, but I won't as it most likely would completely kill the initial discussion point of this topic. So far all I tried to tell people is to learn on how to have a good discussion (one where people try to be friendly and do discuss instead of using trolling and flaming and propaganda) and to keep the game interesting. I am deeply sorry if you and/or your alliance 1up feel offended or attack by this in any way. Maybe you should have read more of my postings more carefully?

And now, to stop tearing this thread even more off-topic, I can only invite you to private message me if you have any more questions.

Regards,
Methedrine

PS: I have to say that the discussions on the Alliance Discussion board have become more "boring" to a certain extend, but a lot less insulting and even more friendly towards other people.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 03:04   #34
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
Most boards have the same standard set of rules, in rare cases moderators in an attempt to raise the quality of discussion will apply a form of "meta-moderation" to posts by stripping out obvious trolls and flames from threads, usually fairly agressively, PA boards have not yet been subject to such moderation and I would find it a shame if it were applied now.

The intention was to question whether you will impose such "meta-moderation" to AD in an attempt to forcefully raise the quality of discussion and debate on there given JohnnyBGood implied that is a possibility.

Nova
Hmm, I thought that stripping obvious trolls and flames from threads "is" what we (are supposed to) do. The concept of meta-moderation would only make sense if we moderated on an unspoken level based on a big hidden secret list of people we liked or by how many cows you owned. And I'm fairly sure I did not imply that such methods were a possibility. Perhaps you misinterpreted (this thread might become a classic case for the idea that the only real differences that matter are linguistic ones) my statement that some threads are looked upon more favourably. I meant looked upon more favourably by the readers of AD generally (as we all do enjoy well-written posts as opposed to piss poor ones) and not the mods specifically.

As well as this the concept of trolling is (loosely) defined in the forum rules as posting obscene/insensitive (i think we could add incorrect and possibly incomplete) information to get a response (this response being negative). Flaming, on the other hand, is insulsting someone.

PS Back on topic then, does anyone have any further suggestions in the field of board moderation that will be given all due consideration?
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 10:47   #35
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
While this is not at all conclusion, none of Methedrine's IPs match any other posters on AD.

Yes they do, pretty much everyone of his IP's match with IP's used by Heartless
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 11:12   #36
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Re: Better forum moderation

JohnnyBGood - "Meta-moderation" needn't be about the users themselves, ultimately all it means is you sit down and criitically read every post, the ones that don't add something specifically constructive or make a positive contribution go straight in the bin (for AD you would cut post counts down by about 90% alone doing this)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBGood
PS Back on topic then, does anyone have any further suggestions in the field of board moderation that will be given all due consideration?
There are ultimately only a limited set of technical tools available for most types of forums, I've always been very strongly in favour of the "One account to one IP" rule since it pretty much prevents shell / gimick / chafe accounts being generated for specific purposes, but I think I've already made that perfectly clear.

Reporting posts is also all fair and well but relies on there being some exceptionally clear and unambiguous rules being in place to guarantee consistency of moderation, last time I even looked at writing rules for a board it took me 4 days solid drafting and redrafting to get them to a point where they were crystal and airtight in what was permitted and what was not (e.g. the mixing of factual information and opinion framed as fact is defined specifically as trolling, and if aimed at a specific person or corporate identity may be classed as libel).

Additional moderators is fine provided you can find ones who are impartial (difficult), even tempered, and logical in the extreme. Jester does fit that bill, or at least it appears so, despite either a mistake or implied dishonesty in one of his responses. Ultimately everyone has some motivation for being mod, and rarely are those reasons totally pure, so it becomes a case of trying to select the best of what is available. A slashdot or k5 peer review system may also be an option, but would require a major cultural shift in how the boards are used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Yes they do, pretty much everyone of his IP's match with IP's used by Heartless
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 11:59   #37
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
While this is not at all conclusion, none of Methedrine's IPs match any other posters on AD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Yes they do, pretty much everyone of his IP's match with IP's used by Heartless
Clearification from someone please?
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 12:32   #38
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Re: Better forum moderation

Woops, I should have checked the thing more carefully last night. In my rush i just scanned them and having checked more carefully theres no exact match. However the ip ranges of the two accounts are highly suspicious. They all fall in the same range and are very simerlar, the fact none actually match imho makes me think someones gone to great trouble to make sure they dont match as youd have thought if they were on the same ISP and the ip ranges suggest even the same area as they are so simerlar youd have thought on atleast one occasion one of them would have got an ip the other had used
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 12:39   #39
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Woops, I should have checked the thing more carefully last night. In my rush i just scanned them and having checked more carefully theres no exact match. However the ip ranges of the two accounts are highly suspicious. They all fall in the same range and are very simerlar, the fact none actually match imho makes me think someones gone to great trouble to make sure they dont match as youd have thought if they were on the same ISP and the ip ranges suggest even the same area as they are so simerlar youd have thought on atleast one occasion one of them would have got an ip the other had used
Thank you, wakey, at least I do now know where those assumptions come from.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 13:50   #40
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Woops, I should have checked the thing more carefully last night. In my rush i just scanned them and having checked more carefully theres no exact match. However the ip ranges of the two accounts are highly suspicious. They all fall in the same range and are very simerlar, the fact none actually match imho makes me think someones gone to great trouble to make sure they dont match as youd have thought if they were on the same ISP and the ip ranges suggest even the same area as they are so simerlar youd have thought on atleast one occasion one of them would have got an ip the other had used
(yes I know I am going off on a tangent here...)

If they are static IP's or DHCP assigned then it's possible that you can have two people that never wind up on the same IP despite being on the same ranges, statics are exceptionally easy to spot though (i.e. my IP is static for instance). DHCP with exceptionally long timeouts would also have a similar effect although it would mean the IP's change infrequently.

Where dynamic IP's are concerned you would be looking for a "scattergun" effect with an overlap within the ranges somewhere, the fact that there is no overlap as you imply would indicate a couple of possibilities, either the ISP in question is running a DHCP style system (perfectly possible and would result in the effect you describe), or the person (s) running the accounts are using some sort of proxy system for posting. If the range is confined to a Class C or even worse yet Class D with zero overlap then I would be concerned there is some sort of stealthing going on if the IP's move around (non-static).

The puzzle continues

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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 14:57   #41
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknova
JohnnyBGood - "Meta-moderation" needn't be about the users themselves, ultimately all it means is you sit down and criitically read every post, the ones that don't add something specifically constructive or make a positive contribution go straight in the bin (for AD you would cut post counts down by about 90% alone doing this)
Meta-moderation implies an approach beyond or after normal moderation, as normal moderation could quite easily include deleting non-constructive posts meta-moderation would have to be moderating on a level beyond merely evaluating the posts on a one-by-one basis.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 17:43   #42
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Re: Better forum moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Meta-moderation implies an approach beyond or after normal moderation, as normal moderation could quite easily include deleting non-constructive posts meta-moderation would have to be moderating on a level beyond merely evaluating the posts on a one-by-one basis.
Probably semantic definitions getting the better of us again

It seems like we more or less agree with each other... After all, when most people moderate forums they're just normally looking to strip out overt attacks and trolls normally, after that the community tends to handle the rest.

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