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Unread 18 Jan 2008, 23:13   #51
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
I was just looking at the specs of the GTX versus the GT...

Discrete Memory: 768Mb vs 512Mb
Controller Speed: 575Mhz vs 600Mhz
OBMemory Speed: 900Mhz vs 900Mhz
OMB Data Width: 384-bit vs 256-bit

It seems to me that the GTX really is a far better card... but then that's just looking at the numbers; I don't know what they mean in the real world.
Hey man I have a 3GHz Celeron I can sell you, it's almost 1/3 faster than that dumb Q6600!

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3140&p=9
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 00:38   #52
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Hey man I have a 3GHz Celeron I can sell you, it's almost 1/3 faster than that dumb Q6600!

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3140&p=9
Okies!

Edit: That link was useful, thank you.

Last edited by Kenny; 19 Jan 2008 at 00:56.
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 07:22   #53
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Re: New PC

I have a 3.4GHz P4 which doubles as a space heater, but when I switched to the 20" Widescreen monitor last month I noticed that my 256 MB Video Card now gives me horrible framerates while I'm in the 1680x1050 resolution, so I guess I'll have to go and upgrade the video card next...
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 12:42   #54
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Re: New PC

A little advice from someone who's been down this path recently.

My current specs:
Processor: Intel Core2 Duo - E6600 (2.40GHz, 1066MHz, 4MB cache)
OS: Windows Vista Ultimate (64bit) - English
Memory: 4094MB 800MHz Corsair DDR2 SDRAM
HDD: 550GB Western Digital Hard Drives Non RAID (2x150GB - 10000rpm, 1x250GB - 7200rpm)
Graphics: Leadtek nVidia GeForce 7600 GT 256MB
TV: DViCO Fusion HDTV DVB-T Pro
Optical1: Sony 16x DVD+/-RW Dual Layer
Keyboard: Logitech G15 Gaming Keyboard
Mouse: Logitech G5 Optical Mouse
Soundcard: Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty Pro PCI Soundcard

As it is I'm currently happy with my rig, the only future potential upgrades will be a quad core and a 9 series card when it is released.

Some potential pitfalls with your chosen configuration:

Memory, or 'beware the 4GB trap'. I made the jump not so long ago of running 2GB in Vista 32bit to 4GB, thinking it was a nice round number and an easy way to get a little better performance increase. What followed was weeks of hell and system instability.

Its been noted already that 32bit OS's can't normally address anything more than 4GB. In Vista since some resources are reserved it usually shows up as 3.5Gb, however not all systems and particularly memory are created equal, some people even with 4GB report only 2GB still showing up.

You can try tricks such as enabling PAE (which incidently is on by default anyway if your processor supports DEP). However it doesn't magically give you access to all that extra ram, in some cases it doesn't even make a difference all.

Enter the 2GB virtual address space which all 32bit programs are subject to (even under Vista 64bit). It wouldn't matter if you had 2GB or 64Gb of memory, Vista artifically boxes programs to only allow them access to 2GB at most. So while more memory will certainly benefit you if you are running multiple programs, the benefit in terms of gaming is significantly less. For most games this wont really be a problem, depending on how it was programmed, but quite a few of the higher end games were hitting this 2Gb roof with alarming speed (Supreme Commander and the BF2/2142 series are of note). What made matters worse is that video memory (the memory on your card) is factored into the mix as well, so if the game you are running sits just under the 2GB mark, throw in the 512mb ram on the card and suddenly your over the limit and the game goes down in flames. There was a hotfix to try and resolve this issue, but once again people have had mixed results.

Back to our magical 4GB number. I don't recall the specifics but there is something relating to how 4Gb of memory is handled that was causing instability on some systems (mine was one), which meant in my case at least I was subject to random freezes and sudden rebooting. If you had any amount under or over that number it meant you dodged the bullet.

The solution in the end was to re-install with Vista 64bit (which fortunately both editions come standard with Vista Ultimate). I thought that would be the end of my woes but alas it was not, the magical 4GB number would ruin my day again.

It turned out that something in the way that the Creative X-Fi drivers addressed memory conflicted with systems running 4GB of memory. Some people reported instability or in my case a very loud and painful buzzing static sound from the speakers. There was nothing I could do at the time other than to rip the somewhat expensive soundcard out and result to onboard sound in hopes Creative would release a fix someday. Several months later they did, and supposedly in the latest batch of drivers the issue has been fixed. Having had a flawless and pleasant experience in the previous months minus the card I haven't been keen to give the new drivers a try so I can't report on the results.


The next component worth mentioning is the video card. As pointed out already I would not waste your money on a 8 series card unless you can get a super cheap bargain basement price on it (no really, anything short of it-fell off-the-back-of-a-lorry pricing just don't bother). The 9 series is coming in due time and it really is worth the wait. My 7600GT looks long in the tooth compared to todays top spec cards, but I bought it intentionally instead of an 8800GT because I knew I would get more bang for my buck, and this was back in January 2007 long before the 9 series was even a prototype. So far with the exception of Lost Planet it has handled everything I have thrown at it. Given they have boosted the 7 series with the likes of 7900GT now it makes them even more value, especially when I gaurentee you'll be drooling over the 9 series when they do come out.

The other thing to consider is that especially with Vista, DX10.1 is going to be the next big thing. The current crop of 8 series cards are not true DX10 architexture, they were originally made for DX9 spec then later retrofitted for a not even out of beta yet DX10 spec.

The WoW factor is really going to kick in when we start seeing the next line of true DX10.1 spec GPUs.
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 12:45   #55
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
I have a 3.4GHz P4 which doubles as a space heater...
Ah.. but can it cook as well as a Cyrix can?
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 15:37   #56
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
I have a 3.4GHz P4 which doubles as a space heater, but when I switched to the 20" Widescreen monitor last month I noticed that my 256 MB Video Card now gives me horrible framerates while I'm in the 1680x1050 resolution, so I guess I'll have to go and upgrade the video card next...
The RAM on the video card is utterly immaterial. I could get you a ~7 year old graphics card core that had 256 megs of RAM stuck on it, or I could show you a lowend modern one which would go an order of magnitude faster (or better).

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
My 7600GT looks long in the tooth compared to todays top spec cards, but I bought it intentionally instead of an 8800GT because I knew I would get more bang for my buck, and this was back in January 2007 long before the 9 series was even a prototype.
The 8800GT wasn't out until October 29th 2007, and is generally regarded as possibly the best value for money card since the time of the Geforce 4200 Ti/Radeon 9800 Pro.
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 17:17   #57
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
The 8800GT wasn't out until October 29th 2007, and is generally regarded as possibly the best value for money card since the time of the Geforce 4200 Ti/Radeon 9800 Pro.
You are right on account of a technicality, the card in question was a 8800GTX released November 8, 2006 (see I can use bold too ya know).

As a previous owner of a Geforce 4200 Ti I can contest that a sub $200 card can't even be compared for value to a $400-500 beast as the 8800GT.


Unfortunately those that believe any of the 8800 series are value for money were clearly whitewashed by Nvidias cunning marketing. They in reality are little more than a cash-cow for Nvidia to get as much money from early adoptors as possible before they have to drop the 9900GT/GTX bomb (figuratively speaking since actual specs/names are as yet unconfirmed).
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 18:41   #58
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
You are right on account of a technicality
The technicality being that you were talking about a different card. I'd never recommend the "premier" card to anyone, and if you note in this thread I've been advising against what you seem to think I am proposing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
As a previous owner of a Geforce 4200 Ti I can contest that a sub $200 card can't even be compared for value to a $400-500 beast as the 8800GT.
The 8800GT costs ~$215-250, or is this rather significant part of your argument a mere technicality as well?

Of course, your argument is nonsensical in the first place. If a £300 graphics card performed twice as well as a £150 graphics card then the price:performance would be the same, which is the measure I'm talking about. Absolute performance differences tend to be in the order of 20% at most, decreasing to a tiny amount between the top two cards which are nonetheless seperated by ~£50 or more in terms of price. You're making arguments that make no sense with complaints that don't apply to the card with demonstrably false statements (which will follow, this paragraph was edited in).

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Unfortunately those that believe any of the 8800 series are value for money were clearly whitewashed by Nvidias cunning marketing.
The price:performance of the 8800 series, on launch, was similar to or better than the previous generation. The 8800GTS was a good 10% or better improvement on the ATi X1950XTX despite costing about the same.

Is running games better part of this cunning marketing plan? I mean, there's a correlation between standard of product and sales but I think that's more down to the engineers than the marketing department.

In addition, I don't think whitewash means what you think it means. What you said was that the people who believe that the 8800 series are good value for money were covered up by Nvidia's cunning marketing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
They in reality are little more than a cash-cow for Nvidia to get as much money from early adoptors as possible before they have to drop the 9900GT/GTX bomb (figuratively speaking since actual specs/names are as yet unconfirmed).
If they are a cashcow, it's because they're by far the best performing graphics cards that exist in PC gaming and have a pretty staggering price:relative performance.

Who do you think is comparing the 8800GT to the 4200Ti or the 9800 Pro? It aint nvidia.

Last edited by MrL_JaKiri; 19 Jan 2008 at 18:48.
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 18:43   #59
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
You are right on account of a technicality, the card in question was a 8800GTX released November 8, 2006 (see I can use bold too ya know).
I can guarantee (lol) you that the 8800 GTX was not released in 2006.

I suspect you're talking out of your proverbial prosterior on this one dude.


Edit: removed unjust arrogance

Last edited by Kenny; 19 Jan 2008 at 19:11.
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 18:47   #60
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
I can guarantee (lol) you that the 8800 GTX was not released in 2006.
Can you, indeed?

LINK SPOILERS HERE:

It's benchmarking the 8800GTS and GTX, November 8th 2006.

He's an idiot, but it's not because of when we first saw the 8800GTX.
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 18:57   #61
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Re: New PC

Also, for the record; I've decided to go for the GTX simply because it is better (regardless of how you consider it's value) and while I have money to spend on it, I'd rather not settle for anything less than the best.

I've never had a 'top of the line' PC before, and while I admit that there are far better systems out there, it'll still be better than anyone else's that I know.
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 19:03   #62
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Re: New PC

Also it might be an idea to wait for a few days to see how Wolfdale (the new C2D line) affects prices, assuming that we won't see massive availability for a while (which we probably will).
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 19:10   #63
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Can you, indeed?

LINK SPOILERS HERE:

It's benchmarking the 8800GTS and GTX, November 8th 2006.

He's an idiot, but it's not because of when we first saw the 8800GTX.
Wow, the card is over a year old? Really?!

Ok, I noobed it again.
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 19:15   #64
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Also it might be an idea to wait for a few days to see how Wolfdale (the new C2D line) affects prices, assuming that we won't see massive availability for a while (which we probably will).
It's on or around the 7th Feb (my birthday, btw guys!) that I get the student loan in, so it wont be until then that I can actually buy the system. I thought it best to start looking now so I don't just go for the first system I see; this way I have to put some (or get somebody else to put some) proper thought into it before making a decision.
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 19:37   #65
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Re: New PC

Oh for goodness sake.

Also from Dell:

Processor: Premium Chassis - Intel® 2 Quad-Core™ Processor Q6600 (2.40GHz, 1066MHz, 8MB cache)
OS: Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium - English
Memory: 2048MB 800MHz Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM [2x1024]
HDD: 320GB (7200rpm) Serial ATA/100 Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst™ cache
Graphics: DUAL 512MB NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT card
TV Card: None
Optical1: 16x DVD+/-RW
Optical2: 48x CDRW/DVD Combo Drive
Keyboard: Dell™ Enhanced USB Multimedia Keyboard - UK/Irish (QWERTY)
Mouse: Dell Optical Scroll Premium Mouse
Soundcard: Sound Blaster® X-Fi Xtreme Gamer PCI Soundcard

Total Cost: £1149.00 (inc VAT/del)

Differences from last choice:

Half the RAM (2Gb vs 4Gb DDR2 SDRAM 800Mhz)
1/3rd HDD space (320Gb vs 1Tb[2*500Gb])
No TV Card
Dual 512Mb 8800 GT (vs single 8800GTX)
£25 more expensive.


Decisions decisions. I thought I'd made my mind up, too
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 21:13   #66
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Re: New PC

Don't buy a comuter. There. I've solved the problem for you. There's no need to thank me; I am benevolent and gracious like an internet-enabled Mother Teresa.
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Unread 19 Jan 2008, 21:28   #67
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Re: New PC

Quote:
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Don't buy a comuter.
But who's going to travel on my trainset
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Unread 20 Jan 2008, 05:40   #68
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
The technicality being that you were talking about a different card. I'd never recommend the "premier" card to anyone, and if you note in this thread I've been advising against what you seem to think I am proposing.
For all intents and purposes they are the same card. There may be a few extra pipelines, more memory and a faster clock rate, but at the heart of the card it is still an 8800. The point is not in its processing power, but rather that which Kenny so perfectly nailed on the head, this card, and its architechure are over a year old. Yes the 8800GT is more affordable than its predecessor ever was, but I see it as being too little too late. ATI aren't going to sit and wait around for their competitor to release a next-gen card, by the same token Nvidia aren't going to wait for their competitor to trump them.


Quote:
The 8800GT costs ~$215-250, or is this rather significant part of your argument a mere technicality as well?
$200 (AUD) vs $400-500 (AUD), which would place your values in the same range as mine. Are you going to base your entire rebuttal on splitting hairs?

Quote:
Is running games better part of this cunning marketing plan? I mean, there's a correlation between standard of product and sales but I think that's more down to the engineers than the marketing department.
Running games better comes with the territory. A 3DFX Voodoo 1 runs games better than a Cirrus Logic with 512Kb RAM, that doesn't mean buying a Voodoo 1 today would be value for money, what is your point exactly?

It is more in the region of how much better does it run, is it significant enough to justify the price difference. The economy of the card can come down to how it is used. If you intend to run all your games at the highest resolution possible, with full AA, dynamic lighting, vertex shading, and all the other doo-dads bells and whistles then yes an 8800 for the time being is going to be the best bang for your buck.

The questions to ask though are things like:

Do all the games I want to play even support the max resolution my card is capable of?
Does the native resolution of the monitor I have chosen match the max resolution my card is capable of?
Do the games I play utilise the more advanced features of my card in a way that genuinely improves gameplay?

I would be inclined to say that for 90% of current gen games the answer to all of the above is no. Most people are not going to be running at 2560x1600 with full AA, HDR dynamic lighting, vertex shading, motion blurr etc. The performance gap at lower resolutions closes greatly to the point where you are unlikely to get a significant performance gain.

For the few games that do push the 8800 to its limits people have found the card struggles to keep up with all features turned on. Only people who are running their rigs at max capacity with SLI and have overclocked most of their system are able to squeeze the required juice out of it.

That is why I believe you are better off to get a lower end card and wait it out until a newer card comes along.


Anyway, my intention for posting here was not to start an argument over emerging hardware and its pros/cons. I simply wanted to offer advice as requested, and to present a POV from the other side of the fence. I totally understand the OPs desire to have the best of the best of the best. I've chased that dream for years, and like most others in my shoes have come to realise you can always throw money at the best hardware of the time, but it doesn't take long for something newer and better to come out.

I encourage smarter buying, by making sacrifices early on in order to reap the benifits later. If getting an 8800GTX is what makes him happy so be it, I'm indifferent either way.
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Unread 20 Jan 2008, 12:38   #69
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Re: New PC

Don't you already have a mouse and a keyboard? How are you typing these posts into the internet?
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Unread 20 Jan 2008, 14:31   #70
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
For all intents and purposes they are the same card.
No, they're not. Here's a way they're different:

ONE COSTS TWICE AS MUCH AS THE OTHER. When you're making an argument based on price, this is somewhat important.

Yes, I'm using bold. It is because you're dramatically wrong, again.

(If you want another example of how they're different, the 8800GT uses the 65nm G92 core, the GTX uses the 90nm G80 core).

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
The point is not in its processing power, but rather that which Kenny so perfectly nailed on the head, this card, and its architechure are over a year old. Yes the 8800GT is more affordable than its predecessor ever was, but I see it as being too little too late.
You might, noone else sees it as "too little, too late". DX10 is, as you say, for the most part an afterthought in this generation of cards - and in many ways it'll not be center stage for the next year or so. Right now there are two games I'd really consider as "using" (as opposed to things like Company of Heroes, where the difference isn't that great) DX10 - Bioshock and Crysis.

An important thing to note here is that, were he not to buy an 8800GT, the card to buy would be one of the new ATi 3800 series - which is also a DX10.0 card. It's like dismissing one kind of bread because it's not gluten free when the next best alternative is also not gluten free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
ATI aren't going to sit and wait around for their competitor to release a next-gen card, by the same token Nvidia aren't going to wait for their competitor to trump them.
You could use the "there's something a bit better coming along in the next six months" argument at pretty much any point in computing in the last decade. Unless there's a release scheduled in the immediate future (see: new C2D's tomorrow) waiting around is utterly pointless because you'll never have a computer at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
$200 (AUD) vs $400-500 (AUD), which would place your values in the same range as mine. Are you going to base your entire rebuttal on splitting hairs?
Launch price for the 4200Ti was ~$200 for the higher end. Launch price for 8800GT? Around $250 (as I have said). There's a bit of a difference there, but when you said "As a previous owner of a Geforce 4200 Ti I can contest that a sub $200 card can't even be compared for value to a $400-500 beast as the 8800GT." you were talking out of your arse yet again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Running games better comes with the territory. A 3DFX Voodoo 1 runs games better than a Cirrus Logic with 512Kb RAM, that doesn't mean buying a Voodoo 1 today would be value for money, what is your point exactly?
I dunno, maybe I was talking about it running games better than pretty much everything except the 8800GTX. I guess I wasn't though, if your argument is to make any sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
It is more in the region of how much better does it run, is it significant enough to justify the price difference.
OK, lets have a little mathematics lesson (god knows you need it).

The : in price:performance means it is a "ratio". A ratio is something that describes the proportional quantity of one thing to another. In this case, a higher price:performance ratio means that you are getting more performance per unit of currency. Shocking stuff! (I'm sure you'll agree.)

When I praised the 8800GT's "price:performance" that means that the price is justified by the improvements in performance!

So, in answer to your question: yes, the it is significant enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
I encourage smarter buying, by making sacrifices early on in order to reap the benifits later. If getting an 8800GTX is what makes him happy so be it, I'm indifferent either way.
This is precisely what I was advocating, god damn.

As an aside, the gains over things like the 2900XT aren't insignificant at lower resolutions - here's one demonstration of that, in an article entitled "The 8800GT: The only card that matters".
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Unread 20 Jan 2008, 16:28   #71
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
No, they're not. Here's a way they're different:

ONE COSTS TWICE AS MUCH AS THE OTHER. When you're making an argument based on price, this is somewhat important.

Yes, I'm using bold. It is because you're dramatically wrong, again.

(If you want another example of how they're different, the 8800GT uses the 65nm G92 core, the GTX uses the 90nm G80 core).
You are the only one making an argument based on price, mine is based on value (which is an accumulation of not just price, but performance & longevity as well).

I must be horribly mistaken, I could have sworn NVIDIA considered them in the same product family, with damned near matching specs to boot.

Regional pricing of course varies, but since you bring it up there is on average a $200-300 (AUD) varience in pricing between the two.


Quote:
You might, noone else sees it as "too little, too late". DX10 is, as you say, for the most part an afterthought in this generation of cards - and in many ways it'll not be center stage for the next year or so. Right now there are two games I'd really consider as "using" (as opposed to things like Company of Heroes, where the difference isn't that great) DX10 - Bioshock and Crysis.
If by your own admission there are only 2 games that would utilise the best features of this card, then what value is there in getting one now when the majority of the other games will run just fine on a lower spec card?

I think you underestimate the push for the new technology that the next gen of cards will bring over the coming months. More so now than ever as tides are turning and gaming consoles which are well known for touting flashy graphics have heavier influences over the games we see coming to PC.

Quote:
An important thing to note here is that, were he not to buy an 8800GT, the card to buy would be one of the new ATi 3800 series - which is also a DX10.0 card. It's like dismissing one kind of bread because it's not gluten free when the next best alternative is also not gluten free
Why does it have to be a $440 AUD (197.040 GBP) card at all? It would be foolish investing that much in a card that is ultimately going to have a shelf life of maybe another 6 months tops.


Quote:
You could use the "there's something a bit better coming along in the next six months" argument at pretty much any point in computing in the last decade. Unless there's a release scheduled in the immediate future (see: new C2D's tomorrow) waiting around is utterly pointless because you'll never have a computer at all.
Rumours suggest it could be as early as March, with the first in the budget 9 series cards confimed for a February release. Even if it turned out to be longer those months will fly by quicker than you'll notice.


Quote:
Launch price for the 4200Ti was ~$200 for the higher end. Launch price for 8800GT? Around $250 (as I have said). There's a bit of a difference there, but when you said "As a previous owner of a Geforce 4200 Ti I can contest that a sub $200 card can't even be compared for value to a $400-500 beast as the 8800GT." you were talking out of your arse yet again.
Heres a pretty picture my arse took earlier of my still in existance 4200 Ti, just incase you doubted that too. Do you even read what I type? I'm allowing you a margin of error because it seems clear to me you haven't taken into account exchange rates and such and not even noticed that all the figures I'm typing are quoted in Aussie dollars.

To date the cheapest 8800GT I can find is $400 AUD (179.127 GBP), going as high as $500 AUD (223.909 GBP). That's a shit load more than the ~$200 AUD (89.5636 GBP) I paid for my 4200 ti back in the day, and I got 2-3 years out of that one.
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Unread 20 Jan 2008, 16:43   #72
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Re: New PC

So here's a question...

At the moment, how long is a 8800 GT gonna last me before it becomes obsolete, how long before a GTX goes out of fashion and then how long before I need to consider upgrading Dual 8800GT running SLI?

I need something that'll last me the next 4 years, are any of those configurations up to the task?
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Unread 20 Jan 2008, 17:02   #73
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Re: New PC

Also, I've just stumbled upon this site:

http://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/

Which seem to be offering scarily good deals... like this one:

Processor: Intel® Core™2 Duo E4500 (2 X 2.20GHz) 800MHz FSB/2MB L2 Cache
OS: WINDOWS® VISTA Home Premium (inc Genuine CD & License)
Memory: 4GB CORSAIR XMS2 800MHz - LIFETIME WARRANTY! (2x2GB)
HDD: 500GB (2x250GB SERIAL ATA II HARD DRIVE WITH 8MB CACHE (7200rpm))
Graphics: DUAL 768MB NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTX card
Optical1: 20x Dual Layer LightScribe DVD Writer ±R/±RW/RAM
Optical2: 16x DVD-ROM WITH 48x CD-ROM
Soundcard: 6 Channel RealTek ALC883 Audio (Standard on P5N-E SLI)
PSU: 800W Quiet Quad Rail PSU + 120mm Case Fan
Cooling: SUPER QUIET 19 dBA INTEL CPU COOLER
Monitor: 22 Inch Wide TFT Silver/Black 1680 x1050 5MS D-Sub, DVI
Case: Black Neon Bubble case + front USB & front Lights

And, here it comes...

£1381 inc VAT and Delivery.


What the ****?


Yes, ok, it's not Quad core... but how does this system stack against my last composition from Dell?

Processor: Intel® Core™ 2 Quad-Core™ Processor Q6600 (2.40GHz, 8MB, 1066MHz)
OS: Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium - English
Memory: 2048MB 800MHz Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM [2x1024]
HDD: 320GB (7200rpm) Serial ATA/100 Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst™ cache
Graphics: DUAL 512MB NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT card
TV Card: None
Optical1: 16x DVD+/-RW
Optical2: 48x CDRW/DVD Combo Drive
Keyboard: Dell™ Enhanced USB Multimedia Keyboard - UK/Irish (QWERTY)
Mouse: Dell Optical Scroll Premium Mouse
Soundcard: Sound Blaster® X-Fi Xtreme Gamer PCI Soundcard

Total Cost: £1149.00 (inc VAT/del)


Even if I went quad core and took it down to Dual GT's, it'd still work out cheaper than Dell. I can't help smell a rat and be suspicious about this.
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Unread 20 Jan 2008, 17:58   #74
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
You are the only one making an argument based on price, mine is based on value (which is an accumulation of not just price, but performance & longevity as well).
Value is a) dependent on price and b) a very similar measure to priceerformance. I notice you haven't quoted the bits where I harp on about this being the important thing, is this a conscious attempt to strawman or are you merely trying to avoid cognitive dissonance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
I must be horribly mistaken, I could have sworn NVIDIA considered them in the same product family, with damned near matching specs to boot.
The AMD Athlon XPs were the same family, but they came in both Thoroughbread and Barton core varieties.

I also like how you criticised me earlier in the thread for falling for nvidia marketing bollocks and then using a non-technical page to support your arguments, and as you're that dumb I'm going to leave it as an exercise to the reader to investigate G80 vs G92. Googling them, seperately, might be a start. Note that it doesn't say what the core is in either case, and benchmarks are the things to look at, not raw MHZ POWER YO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
If by your own admission there are only 2 games that would utilise the best features of this card, then what value is there in getting one now when the majority of the other games will run just fine on a lower spec card?
Your argument is confusing yet again. This paragraph I quote is in response to something that was in response to you saying DX10.0 was rubbishy.

The best feature of this card is the enormous improvement in DX9 performance, which is noticable at resolutions as low as 1280x1024, especially on games like Crysis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
I think you underestimate the push for the new technology that the next gen of cards will bring over the coming months. More so now than ever as tides are turning and gaming consoles which are well known for touting flashy graphics have heavier influences over the games we see coming to PC.
The number of AAA games being released in total is pretty small, and only a handful have come out and said that DX10 features WILL be included. Alan Wake is probably the next notable one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Why does it have to be a $440 AUD (197.040 GBP) card at all? It would be foolish investing that much in a card that is ultimately going to have a shelf life of maybe another 6 months tops.
Because the Direct X 9 performance you get out of it is vastly superior to any other card?

The card you suggested (7900GT) isn't being sold anywhere that I can find, and in any case the nearest equivilent I can find (one place has 1 kind of 7900GS still being sold) has ~1/4 the frame rate of the 8800GT in Oblivion at 1280x1024* at over 1/4 the price. It's just not true that all cards are equally capable of equal performance at common "lowend" resolutions like 1280x1024 or 1680x1050.

I'm also well placed to directly compare the 7900GT to an 8800GT, as I changed between those cards when the 8800GT was launched towards the end of the last year. As I'm still running XP, it was only DX9 performance that I could compare, and the 8800GT was vastly better.

*I won't be able to directly quote a benchmarks to support this, as the cards are too far apart. It was done by comparing the FPS of a 7900GS to a 7900GTX under one setup, then a 7900GTX to an 8800GT(X). NB: this is biased against the 8800 series card, as that test was done with full AA/AF, rather than none. But it still comes out ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Rumours suggest it could be as early as March, with the first in the budget 9 series cards confimed for a February release. Even if it turned out to be longer those months will fly by quicker than you'll notice.
This is precisely the kind of nonsense that I was talking about. There is ALWAYS something bigger and better in just a little while. If nvidia announce a mid-february release for the 9x00 series in the next couple of weeks then he has a reason to wait, but if not then he doesn't. When were we first supposed to get the X3000 and AM2 series again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Heres a pretty picture my arse took earlier of my still in existance 4200 Ti
I could take a pretty picture of my still in existance 4200Ti (if I went over to the other side of town, I gave the computer that it was in away). It's a nice yellow colour. Asus made it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
because it seems clear to me you haven't taken into account exchange rates and such and not even noticed that all the figures I'm typing are quoted in Aussie dollars.
I don't care how much the figures you are typing are, or what units they are in. I am quoting nvidia's suggested retail price, in USD, in both cases. It wouldn't matter if they were measured in sheep, it's the relative amount that's important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
To date the cheapest 8800GT I can find is $400 AUD (179.127 GBP), going as high as $500 AUD (223.909 GBP). That's a shit load more than the ~$200 AUD (89.5636 GBP) I paid for my 4200 ti back in the day, and I got 2-3 years out of that one.
Did you buy it a couple of months after launch, because that seems somewhat unlikely. I'm quoting nvidia's launch prices, not some number, plucked from the same place as that photo you took earlier, from an unspecified time.
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Unread 20 Jan 2008, 18:13   #75
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Also, I've just stumbled upon this site:

http://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/
I can't find them on any of the consumer ratings websites I know of, so I would be wary.
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Unread 20 Jan 2008, 19:23   #76
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
I need something that'll last me the next 4 years, are any of those configurations up to the task?
You are honestly making a severe mistake with this approach. Buy a good gfx card now and keep some money for upgrading in 2 years.
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Unread 20 Jan 2008, 19:25   #77
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Re: New PC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
So here's a question...

At the moment, how long is a 8800 GT gonna last me before it becomes obsolete, how long before a GTX goes out of fashion and then how long before I need to consider upgrading Dual 8800GT running SLI?

I need something that'll last me the next 4 years, are any of those configurations up to the task?
Nothing will last you four years, except buying (say) an 8800GT now and a similar mid-range card in 2 years.

For a comparison, the 9800 Pro (which was far and away ahead of the field at the time) was about 4 years old when Crysis came out. It has no hope at all at running it.
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