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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 16:01   #51
JonnyBGood
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
ok.. but what would they be ?
I don't know, it was his point, do a search for s|k and "culture capable".


Quote:
ok but potentiality points also have problems. I.e. from what i remember both nod and dante (not sure about jakiri or you) are pro choice. That wouldn't fit in very well with administering moral worth based on potential states.

Not only that, but a "potentiality" point could also exclude the mentally handicapped (obviously it would be a pretty severe handicap). (something i remember nod in particular not being a huge fan of)
Also the point about a summation of factors leading to "sentience"...
"Perhaps it's not one particular ability but a group of them that when held indicate sentience"
Could this not also lead to the sliding scale you reffered to. Not in the (quite frankly idealistic) absolutist terms that have been stated so far in reference to qualifying for exclusive moral worth(i.e. you're either in or you're out) but instead a sliding scale of our moral worth as human's. (i.e not all entity's would necessarily qualify for moral value simply because their species is human)

I.e. what if we have only most, of these factors ?
What if we only have them in moderation ?
does this mean we do not have the same moral worth ?
Or even worse if we take the absolutist view..... or we of any moral worth at all ?
As I said I don't think that's the right approach to take to it. Frankly we already restrict the mentally handicapped's freedoms, and that of children, beyond that of "normal" people so we recognise a sliding scale there already. Perhaps look at it from the angle of a boundary area, with children and other people with restricted rights lower down than those of us with all the normal associated rights.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 16:03   #52
Dante Hicks
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
ok but potentiality points also have problems. I.e. from what i remember both nod and dante (not sure about jakiri or you) are pro choice. That wouldn't fit in very well with administering moral worth based on potential states.
"Potentiality" is a tricky issue because if you totally ignore it you could get to a logical position of "It's OK to kill unconscious people because they aren't conscious" or something like that, which would obviously be absurd.

A foetus has certain rights (we might say) because at an eventual point it can survive by itself (outside of it's mother). Modern science may make this shift slightly but either way it's not 100% clear cut. The point is, by itself, it would not be potentially anything at all.

I believe Nod's argument for pro-choice is based around the issue of no human being is obliged to help another human being survive, or something like that (although has some dodgy implications, is abandoning a newborn infant to be considered OK?)

Either way, it's a moot point because animals aren't potentially anything. The nearest example would be someone who is in a vegetative state (i.e. brain dead) with zero chance of recovery. In those cases, they are regularly terminated anyway, and it's usually family members / societies feelings that are considered when dealing with their affairs. It's kind of how corpses are treated I suppose.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 16:04   #53
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
I suggest you prove they are not vaguely close before arguing that they are not.

A human baby does not experience 'things' like an adult does but it isnt right to experiment on them, that would be called abuse - exactly what it is when done to an animal.
Babies can sort of tell you they experience things when they grow up though. I've never been told by a monkey that those experiments on it were really nasty though and it has a strong moral objection to it. Also the burden of proof most definitely lies with you (collective you here) my friend, so do not try and shift it.


I do like my computers point though and I would like a response to it thanks.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 16:04   #54
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
A human baby does not experience 'things' like an adult does but it isnt right to experiment on them, that would be called abuse - exactly what it is when done to an animal.
Why is experimenting on an animal worse than simply eating it? Or isn't it?
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 16:47   #55
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
why ?
is there a reason we are of more moral worth than any and all animals ? Or as you seem to be implying, why we are of exclusive moral worth and all other animals are entirely divorced from it ?
Morality is a human construct, so its hardly surprising that it tends to be human-centric. If I were a cat then I might value cats more than humans, except I wouldnt because if I were a cat then I wouldnt have a conceptual consciousness and hence wouldnt be capable of reasoning in terms of high-level abstractions such as 'values' and 'rights' (this is the key difference between humans and other animals, and why moral treatment differs - non-human animals cant understand concepts like 'rights', so saying that they should have them is odd. A dog isnt respecting my right to life when it refrains from biting me - you're going to end up committing semanticide if you try to talk about animals in those sort of terms).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I believe Nod's argument for pro-choice is based around the issue of no human being is obliged to help another human being survive, or something like that (although has some dodgy implications, is abandoning a newborn infant to be considered OK?)
.
You can argue in terms of implicit contracts here - a person chooses to have a child, but they dont choose to get pregnant. Hence abandoning a child involves violating a responsibility you accepted when you chose to give birth. Personally I think the idea of babies having rights is pretty iffy though, so meh. I wouldnt say that killing babies is necessarily wrong in any absolute sense (like killing adults), although I do find it distasteful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Babies can sort of tell you they experience things when they grow up though.
I dont think that someone claiming to remember his experiences during the first few months of his life would constitute real evidence for babies being conscious (I wouldnt believe him for a start).

Last edited by Nodrog; 16 Jan 2006 at 16:58.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 19:39   #56
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
You can argue in terms of implicit contracts here - a person chooses to have a child, but they dont choose to get pregnant. Hence abandoning a child involves violating a responsibility you accepted when you chose to give birth.
I don't see anything but a difference in degree between this view and the view that a woman has a responsibility towards a viable foetus (to at least give birth and give the baby to an adoption agency).

You don't choose to get pregnant but you choose to give birth? Apart from immaculate conception, it's the other round.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 19:43   #57
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

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Originally Posted by quebal
lYou don't choose to get pregnant but you choose to give birth? Apart from immaculate conception, it's the other round.
If you assume the woman's right to choose, then "giving birth" is a choice, and thus nod's argument is entirely internally consistent.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 19:47   #58
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
I don't see anything but a difference in degree between this view and the view that a woman has a responsibility towards a viable foetus
Its entirely difference because women dont always choose to have foetuses grow in them.

Quote:
You don't choose to get pregnant but you choose to give birth? Apart from immaculate conception, it's the other round.
A lot of pregnancies happen by mistake, so talking about 'choice' in these cases is silly (unless you also want to commit yourself to saying that people choose to get knocked over if a car hits them while they cross the road). But once a woman has become pregnant, she has the choice to either have an abortion or give birth. Assuming that she gives birth, this can be argued to be an acceptance of responsibility to look after the child. If she wasnt prepared to care for it, she should have opted for the coathanger.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 19:56   #59
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If you assume the woman's right to choose, then "giving birth" is a choice, and thus nod's argument is entirely internally consistent.
Yeah, but "choosing to bring a life into the world" strikes me as being backwards. What if, like Sonia from Eastenders, someone suddenly has a baby without having realised they were pregnant at all?

The mother hasn't actually done any positive action that causes the baby to become a person. (going with born = person, unborn = not person) Perhaps the term in the contract that states "if you do not abort this foetus by the time it is born ..." becomes active, but what ties her into the contract is having sex in the first place.

Edit: my own view is that people do have a duty to support others. It's a lot simpler.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 00:14   #60
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
Sorry Jennifer, I dont sympathise with you or your university at all. As harsh as it might be the protestors tactics will work eventually.

Your university doesnt need an animal lab, they might say that it will be harmless and that it wont be used to torture animals in the name of science but eventually it will.

While some might say humans are worth more than animals and we can do what the hell we like with them, thankfully there are some people who disagree and are willing to make a stand against such a moronic attitude.
First off, no they won't. Do you have ANY idea how difficult it is to make Oxford do what you want it to? HAH! We've been doing what we like for centuries, instead of what we're told by people who don't know what they're talking about. That's what makes us a great institution. And that's why we're going to finish the lab and help cure millions of people of their diseases and save them their suffering.

Second, we don't NEED anything. You don't need that computer you're typing at now. God knows, the universe would be a nicer place if you didn't possess it. But you go ask someone who is suffering all day every day, or who is terminally ill, or whose child is about to die, ask them if they would be willing to have some mice die to help create a cure. They will invariably say yes. If they don't, they should be allowed to die to purify the gene pool. My species has been fighting for generation after generation to survive, if that meant other creatures had to die, then that's just the sad truth. We have slightly different rules for humans because of the way society operates. See my explanation below on 'how society works'. Also, what in the hell makes you think people will 'torture animals in the name of science'? You protesters can scream 'the scientists aren't human!!!' as loud as you like but that DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. Of course scientists won't torture animals in the name of science, because they ARE human. Animals wil be used in research. There might be pain involved. It will not be 'in the name of science', it will *be* science. It will not be excessaive, and it will not be without purpose. Also, 'torture' is an unnecessarily emotive word, given that you have NO ****ing clue what goes on in there.

And another point: What's 'worth' got to do with it? A value is simply what someone is willing to pay for something. And there's not really a lot of meaning in placing a price on something unless you can put it in the context of what the person doing the buying possesses, nor if the value varies widely. I would value my mother's life above yours. If someone put a gun to my mother's head and said kill that guy who calls himself Green Spit, or I'll kill your mother, I'd kill you. If the role were reversed and someone you cared about was threatened, in spite of the moral highground you'd like to claim, I suspect you'd make the equivalent choice. Certainly the vast majority of peopel would. The fact of the matter is, we CAN do what we like with them (and here I mean "can" in the Jack Sparrow sense of the word), unless it's illegal, in which case we can do what we like with them, but then society can do what it likes to us according to the punishments given out for the offence. You're just on some moral highground because you are fortunate enough not to need treatment to ease your suffering. It's survival of the fittest, sweetheart, it's how the world works. The scientists obviously care more about the humans they're trying to cure than about the animals. The lion cares more about filling his belly than about the gazelle. The only difference is that the scientists will try to minimise the animals discomfort, to ease their own conscience.

I have a few other points:

1) Morality in this society is determined BY the society, there is no such thing as intrinsic or objective morality.

2) The majority, while probably wanting to avoid purposeless and cruel testing, acknowledge the value of the scientific research and realise that without it we'd stil be living in the dark ages. (Despite what you people try to make us believe, you ARE in the minority - if that many people objected, society would have to change its rules.)

3) The vocal minority may well be prepared to put the life of an animal before their own life, and that's their prerogative. But what right do you have to tell me that I, or anyone I care about, should have to die or suffer, to bow your YOUR moral principles to ease YOUR conscience? By all means protest using peaceful and legal means, and refrain from taking any medicine or having any medical treatment ever. But don't enforce your views on us.

4) It is the way of the world that some of us (humans) are powerful and strong enough to be able to do what we want with others (animals). Just as someone pointed out, if an animal does not attack us, it's not because it 'respects our right to life', it's either because it knows it can't beat us, or because it isn't hungry. It is society, and the laws we have, established due to the conscience of the majority, that prevent us from doing 'cruel' things.

5) Those morals I mentioned, which are determined by society. Those are the morals you have to adhere to if you wish to be a part of society. These include letting people try to heal sick people, not burning down other people's property, not digging up people's dead relatives. If you don't like the society, you leave it, or you try, within the rules of society, to change it. So protest, that's your right, but don't a) break society's rule in doing so, or b) expect me to sit and watch a member of my family suffer because you care more about the mice than about him/her.

Of course, going back to that 'changing society' thing. If you people had any brains at all, you'd realise that keeping people up all night shouting outside their window, harrassing people who are nothing to do with the project, destroying property belonging to those uninvolved with the project... that's only going to make us dislike you more, and prevent us being sympathetic to your cause. If you had even the tiniest bit of intelligence, you'd realise that the reason you can't get anyone to listen to you is because you're saying incredible (I mean in-credible, unbelievable) things about what the scientists do. Painting some sort of grotesque caricature will only make people think you're talking out of your arse. Rather than thinking 'omg that's terrible, it must be stopped' peopel are thinking 'omg, shut up, you've blatantly made that up'. If instead you campaigned to get a look inside, so that people knew the truth, you'd get much more support. If you didn't spit hatred at people who haven't done anything wrong because we're NOTHING to do with the project, people would be more willing to listen to you. You might even find that what goes on in there is what they say goes on in there. If you didn't threaten to blow it up, you might be allowed inside to see for yourself. Unfortunately, behaving like that would just level off your moral highground, wouldn't it?

Also, killing of animals to feed people in this society is unnecessary. We can get our protein elsewhere. The number of animals bred for meat and killed in horrific conditions (proven horrific conditions, not hypothetical conditions like in the labs) is many many many orders of magnitude greater than those used in animal research. And all it achieves is to keep me from being hungry for a few hours. I could quite easily live on a vegetarian diet. Mostly I do, but only because I'm not all that excited by meat. I just like the occasional bacon sandwich and whatnot. And also, there aren't the special guidelines to look after the animals bred for meat, like the animals in the lab. So why don't these protesters leave the experiements alone, and go and try to talk everyone into being vegan? Because they'll help a lot more animals that way. Well, you'll help them not be born, but at least they won't suffer.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 00:18   #61
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
You dont know me. Dont presume you do. Thank you.
i notice you don't actually defend yourself though, so i was right then?
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 00:44   #62
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

So Jennifer has decided that she's pro animal testing and all for it, based purely on having a bit of her beauty sleep taken by some protestors shouting about it all?

I see.

Why do you presume that these protestors "know nothing about labs and have never stepped inside one"? Do you know? Have you asked them? I'd be surprised if these people spent a good proportion of their time protesting against something that they weren't decently informed about.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 00:46   #63
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
So Jennifer has decided that she's pro animal testing and all for it, based purely on having a bit of her beauty sleep taken by some protestors shouting about it all?
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Why do you presume that these protestors "know nothing about labs and have never stepped inside one"? Do you know? Have you asked them? I'd be surprised if these people spent a good proportion of their time protesting against something that they weren't decently informed about.
From my personal experience of arguing with this type of person, they have no clue at all.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 10:04   #64
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Why do you presume that these protestors "know nothing about labs and have never stepped inside one"? Do you know? Have you asked them? I'd be surprised if these people spent a good proportion of their time protesting against something that they weren't decently informed about.
bear in mind that an awful lot of the information they have seen will be propagandist in nature. I doubt there will be a balanced view there at all, in fact, the view is most certainly not balanced if they are threatening to attack people.

It was really funny at imperial a few years ago, we had a bunch of animal rights protesters hanging outside the biology department moaning about vivisection, and in fact they were stood outside the entrance which the botanists use, and nowhere near their actual targets. idiots.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 10:12   #65
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
However, sentient (in the Star Trek sense of the word) sometimes means more advanced consciousness or "self-awareness".
well a number of animals do pass the tests we can do for self awareness, and others clearly have an understanding of loss and death. These are more complex emotions which we tend to associate with self awareness. That being said though, children under about three tend to fail some of these tests, but then I'm not suprised, I don't think that young babies are really self aware. they are wriggling drool dispensers with potential.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 11:37   #66
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
So Jennifer has decided that she's pro animal testing and all for it, based purely on having a bit of her beauty sleep taken by some protestors shouting about it all?

I see.

Why do you presume that these protestors "know nothing about labs and have never stepped inside one"? Do you know? Have you asked them? I'd be surprised if these people spent a good proportion of their time protesting against something that they weren't decently informed about.
Not at all, I was pro-testing before they ever started protesting (bdm-ching) (note: only certain types of testing, in particular cosmetic testing I do not agree with) but I am objecting to their methods for communicating their ideals, and I object to them thinking that they have some sort of moral veto on the topic.

They haven't been outside my window keeping me awake, they aren't allowed, if they do they'll be arrested. But I don't trust them to not put a bomb through my letterbox if I actively oppose them. They're the ones going on about free speech, but it's the pro-testing people who are being denied that by the protesters' threats. They are all allowed to peacefully say 'down with the animal lab'. But if I peacefully say 'I think the research is valuable and that you people should stop being so violent' there is a possibility that they will carry out their threats of targeting such a person as myself with violence.

And amusingly, yes, I did ask them. I already said in my post, if you'd read it, that they freely admitted that not one of them had been in the lab. They alluded to 'people on the inside' but given that the lab hasn't actually been BUILT yet, that is unlikely to say the least. The existing animal lab can't be used as a basis for closing down the new one because the entire point of the new one is that the facilities are better. The horrible nasty old one will be shut down, IF we move all the animals to the new improved facilities. The person I spoke to also didn't know where the pictures on their posters had been taken. She couldn't even be sure they had been taken in this country.

They are welcome to keep their uninformed opinions, but shoving down other people's throats with violent means they are not welcome to do.

P.S. I love the way you concluded a load of things about me without reading my post, purely on the basis that you dislike me. I can't remember why, I think it was something to do with the fact that you're insecure about my perception of our relative levels of intelligence.

Build a bridge, and get over it <3
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 12:45   #67
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
well a number of animals do pass the tests we can do for self awareness, and others clearly have an understanding of loss and death. These are more complex emotions which we tend to associate with self awareness.
The reason is why I put self-awareness in speech marks was that I am unclear on the validity of the concept. For instance, there has been much talk about the experiment where an animal could "recognise" itself in a mirror (if it can, it's self-aware, if it's not, it's not self-aware). This seems rather arbritrary, perhaps some animals might have evolved the ability to distinguish others and itself in the reflection of water (or something like that).

So it's like sentience I suppose, it depends how you're defining it. I kind of like Dennett's discussion of higher order intentionality, or thoughts about your thoughts, etc. But although there has been some research in this area re : the cognitive ability of animals, I'm not overly familiar with it.

Overall It seems that "self-awareness" in a very limited sense would not necessarily mean an animal could "suffer" for instance (as opposed to being injured / being in pain / being aware that one is in pain).
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 14:48   #68
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
Animal testing is afterall morally wrong
Why?
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 15:02   #69
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
Animal testing is afterall morally wrong
Morality isn't an absolute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
yields only around 20% of data that is of any value and according to a European Medical Journal survey 88% of doctors agreed that `laboratory experiments performed on animals can be misleading because of anatomical and physiological differences between animals and humans'.
Link?

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Originally Posted by Green Spit
So stop being silly before your age old university goes up in smoke and its people (not just the animals) getting hurt.
What a stupid thing to say.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 15:20   #70
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i was taking morality as a human construct as a given. The fact that we're probably going to be bias when trying to apply our subjective moral construct isn't really much of a justification for doing so.
The reason you and i while accepting morality to be a human construct don't scoff at it in the same way a lot of us do at those who believe in a god (or in particular, a certain religion) is because it is far harder to transcend our innate/learned/whatever* morality (or desire/instinct towards moral action) despite our rationalizing showing it to have no more objective worth than anything else.
I shouldnt have said 'morality is a human construct', it has the wrong connotations (in that it seems to suggest that the word 'just' should precede the 'human', and it implies subjectivism of some sort). I meant that morality is fundamentally built around concepts which only really make sense in the context of humans ('rights', 'choice' , 'values', etc) and so assuming that it can be directly extended to cover animals is problematic. For example, rights theory generally presupposes that all parties can reciprocally choose to respects the rights of others - saying that you have the 'right' to something if noone else recognises it is pretty useless. But animals can have no understanding of this sort of thing - a penguin cant decide to respect or to violate my rights.

Quote:
The relationship of this to the animal "rights", issue is that we should not ignore how shit we would feel actually killing a chimp just because it can't enjoy poetry.
Well, would we feel shit killing a chimp? I have no problem with animals dying as long as its for what I view as a good reason (medical testing, cosmetics, whatever). I dont feel remorse when I kill a spider, nor am I saddened by the fact that chickens die to provide me with food.

Quote:
the reason i put rights in quotation was because rights are also a human construct and the problem with trying to apply them in absolutist terms (as is their very nature) is that you will find contradictions with the very (empathetic) goals you were trying to achieve
I dont think theres any contradictions in rights theory. You certainly seem to believe there is, but your post doesnt really contain any arguments - youve just repeated a series of empty phrases without any clear meaning ('absolutist').

Quote:
We have the same problem when we try to ascribe rights to ourselves in such a dogmatic fashion (as i have demonstrated in another thread, example also available on request).
Again, I dont think this is meaningful. Youre using words like 'dogmatic', 'absolutist' and 'ideological' which you presumeably you think are bad things to be, but its not clear what youre actually trying to do with them. Its like when people label those they dont like as being 'extremists' - its a fairly vague thing to say and it probably doesnt mean anything.

Quote:
That does not mean they are not useful. They have pragmatic uses such as asking for what most of us would call the correct moral decision 99% of the time. (and rather off-topic uses like preventing lynch mobs and any kind of concensus crap they might use to justify it)
The only reason why I care what other people think about morality is that they are sometimes in a position to inflict their views on me. If this werent the case, then it would be irrelevant what 'most people would call the correct moral decision'. This goes back to the 'morality as a social construct' thing, which is probably either vacuous or false depending precisely on what sentiment its being used to convey.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 15:21   #71
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
Animal testing is afterall morally wrong, yields only around 20% of data that is of any value and according to a European Medical Journal survey 88% of doctors agreed that `laboratory experiments performed on animals can be misleading because of anatomical and physiological differences between animals and humans'. So stop being silly before your age old university goes up in smoke and its people (not just the animals) getting hurt.
Medical doctors dont really do research so they wouldnt know, they just see the finished drug when its gone through clinical trials. Without animal testing drugs would never get to clinical trials. Funnily enough they wont let you stick drugs in to humans unless they have been shown to be save in animals. Would save messing around if you could just stick them in to humans. Maybe these animal protestors should offer to be human guinea pigs to help save the animals.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 15:30   #72
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
did your mother never teach you right from wrong?
My mother taught me it was right to spit on black people.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 15:37   #73
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

I'm not going to enter the minefield that is discussion of animal rights.

However based on what these protesters are (apparently) doing, how the hell have they not been locked up as terrorists?
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 15:38   #74
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
did your mother never teach you right from wrong?
My mother taught me to think for myself, perhaps you were brainwashed by yours?


I believe that it is better to save human lives at the potential cost of some animal lives, than not to save those human lives. There are limits, but only in the area of proportionality. If you believe different - fine - but you can't make an argument solely on moral lines, since everyone holds different morals.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 15:46   #75
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
did your mother never teach you right from wrong?
Hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 15:59   #76
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
However based on what these protesters are (apparently) doing, how the hell have they not been locked up as terrorists?
Some of them have been. However guessing, I would say,
i) These type of people are generally from reasonably middle class backgrounds and as such are less likely to be imprisoned than dirty proles or heavens forbid, the arabs.

ii) They don't really represent a significant threat to the state so they are not given a particularly high priority.

iii) There is a worrying amount of animal loving retards in this country who have sympathies with them.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 16:07   #77
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Testing of drugs I'm not terribly interested in, though I'm sure if pressed I might be persuaded to bring forth an opinion. I'm most interested in the study of conditions which a) cause a lot of human suffering and b) for which there is no treatment, never mind a cure.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 16:10   #78
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
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There's a website, so it's true!
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 16:13   #79
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Because this is all getting a little bit silly I'd like to link to the RDS which is the UK organisation representing medical researchers in the public debate about the use of animals in medical research and testing. It provides information about the need for animal research, the controls under which this research is carried out, and the benefits to medicine which have resulted. It also helps government and animal welfare groups to promote best practice in laboratory animal welfare and develop non-animal techniques. All of the facts are backed up with references at the bottom of each page, including, I was quite delighted to spot, references to work by Vernon Coleman himself.

Seriously green spit open your mind a bit. Withdrawing from debates when they're still in progress and very much on track is just not a good way to go about actually learning anything new.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 16:18   #80
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Green Spit: What you said applies only to cosmetic testing, not the medical testing that the Oxford lab is about.

This page might help (simplified version)
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 16:21   #81
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

just for the record, Vernon Coleman doesn't believe in AIDS.


just so you know.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 16:22   #82
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
I am afraid you are misguided my friend;

'Lie number 4: Many supporters of vivisection claim that animal experiments are required by law for all drugs,

cosmetics and other chemicals. Some spokesmen say that they do not like doing animal experiments but that they

have no alternative if they are going to satisfy the law.


This is not true. Where laws do exist to control the marketing and sale of products they usually insist that products which are sold to the public must not be liable to cause damage to human health under normal conditions of use'.

The success of companies which never test their products or their ingredients on animals shows that it is perfectly possible to prepare and sell safe cosmetics (for example) which do not contain ingredients which have been tested on animals.

In my view companies which sell products which have been tested on animals or which sell products which contain ingredients which have been tested on animals do so of their own volition often because they consider animal testing to be cheaper or more convenient than other alternatives.

The law controlling animal experiments needs to be changed and brought up to date, but I have no sympathy for companies which still try to hide behind existing legislation. '

taken from here; http://www.vernoncoleman.com/main.htm

and doctors should know enough about the drugs they are prescribing to be well aware of the facts pointed out here

Im not going to participate in this debate too much from now on, Im busy designing spaceships (that wont be flying monkeys to the moon!!)
Firstly, i'm in the pharmaceutical industry, i have some idea of what i'm talking about. Secondly, you've just quoted someone taking about cosmetics. You may not have to test them on animals before humans but they certainly wont let you inject a new drug into a human if it hasnt been tested on animals.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 16:34   #83
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

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Originally Posted by Green Spit
My my princess quite vocal arent we? I didnt set an essay on this I mereley voiced my opinion, it wasnt personal.

Im not an animal protestor but I can sure see why they do it and it makes me proud that there are people in this world who oppose animal testing.

Animal testing is afterall morally wrong, yields only around 20% of data that is of any value and according to a European Medical Journal survey 88% of doctors agreed that `laboratory experiments performed on animals can be misleading because of anatomical and physiological differences between animals and humans'. So stop being silly before your age old university goes up in smoke and its people (not just the animals) getting hurt.
1. Don't take that patronising tone with me. My opinion required a long post because I am informed enough to have more than 'stop the oxford animal lab! stop the oxford animal lab! stop the oxford animal lab! stop the oxford animal lab! stop the oxford animal lab! stop the oxford animal lab! stop the oxford animal lab! stop the oxford animal lab!' to say on the topic.

2. From what is that pride derived? You have no more reason to be proud of their actions than you have to be ashamed of Einstein's.

3. Animal testing is not morally wrong in my book. I venture that a lot of moralities would agree that an inaction can be wrong, just as an action can. The protesters think that inaction with respect to opposing the lab is wrong. I think that inaction with respect to the humans who are suffering from illness is wrong.

4. Statistics don't mean a damn thing. 20% says who? And do you mean what you've actually written there? That out of all the useful data produced in the world, a staggering 20% comes directly from animal research? Or do you rather mean that out of the research done on animals, only 20% produces useful results? Either way, that's a lot of data. Maybe the investigation should be into how to improve the efficiency of the testing, not how to ban it.

5. There are at least 200 European medical journals that I have access to. Please could you be a little more vague cos I think I might find it too easy to find the article among them. (That means give me a reference including the journal name, the issue number and the page number. If the article is not in my first language (English), I would appreciate an indication of the location of that gem of data within the paper.)

6. Of course data *can* be misleading. To deny that possibility is to deny the nature of science. That doesn't mean to say it isn't possible for a lot of useful data to be produced when it is carefully analyzed.

6b. That statement reminded me of the protesters cry that 70-something percent of doctors would support an enquiry into the goings-on in the labs. They seemed to think this proved their point. For pity's sake, *I* would support such an enquiry because the protesters would finally have to admit that they aren't protesting because torture is happening in there, they are just protesting because they place less value on human life than I do. Moral highground falls away, boo hoo.

7. I'm not being silly, I'm being perfectly serious. I will be most disappointed in my institution if they give way to mindless intimidation and threats. If they are won over by reason, then fair enough, but the protesters apparently haven't heard of 'reason'.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 16:39   #84
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice.

Shame.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 17:07   #85
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

"When Vernon Coleman was invited to debate vivisection at the Oxford Union in the UK not one vivisector or vivisection supporter in Britain would debate against him. Oxford Union subsequently withdrew their invitation to Vernon Coleman and found someone else to oppose vivisection."

Taken from the site mentioned above. I would to post in defence of my university, and the vivisectionists who declined to debate with him.

The Union isn't pretentious about who is invited to speak. We had Charlotte Church for Christ's sake! Just because he was invited, it doesn't mean he's a well respected intellectual. If scientists didn't want to engage him in debate, it's either because they felt his arguments had no merit and weren't worth shooting down or dignifying with an answer, or because they thought they wouldn't be able to shoot him down.

Why wouldn't they be able to? Because his arguments are perfect and can't be picked apart? If the vivisectionists BELIEVED this to be the case, which they would have to, if they refused to debate with him, then they must either have no confidence in themselves (which can't be right, because otherwise they'd never stand up to all the protesters) or they actually think he's right (also can't be right, otherwise they wouldn't be in the industry).

Conclusion? It must be because he can't be argued with simply because he won't admit he's wrong. You present him with an argument and he won't be willing to follow it through with each logical step to see how you reach your conclusion. He's the sort of person who just says 'oh well, you say that, but what does it prove?' or 'you're still wrong tho'. It's like banging your head against a brick wall, or arguing with a fundie christian about the nature of god, justice, heaven, hell the creation of man with free will (no offence to the christians intend...). I support this claim by presenting form his own website:

"The challenge was widely publicised and was very simple. I challenged vivisectors - and those who support vivisection - to find ONE patient whose life had been saved as a direct result of animal experimentation - and whom they could prove would now be dead if it had not been for animal experiments."

He claims this proves that animal research has not saved a single life. I say all it proves is that vivisectionists have not been able to prove that it has done so, which is such a fundamentally different statement, you can see why no one is willing to engage this moron at the Union.

I would suggest that he might like to ask all the animal rights campaigners in the world to find a single person who received treatment that was tested on animals and prove that they would be in exactly the same state of health had they not received the treatment. Such a task would be equally impossible.

And on a sort of related note to people in general:

STOP QUOTING PSEUDO SCIENTISTS LIKE THEY SPEAK GOSPEL TRUTH. JUST BECAUSE IT'S ON A WEBSITE, IT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S FACT. EVEN THINGS IN JOURNALS ARE OFTEN WRONG. STOP QUOTING STATISTICS UNLESS YOU'RE WILLING TO REFERENCE THEM, AND HAVE A MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION ON THE MERITS AND FLAWS OF THE TECHNIQUE USED TO ACQUIRE THEM. JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE HAS Ph.D. AFTER THEIR NAME, IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE A WORLD RESPECTED EXPERT ON THE FIELD IN QUESTION.

Sorry about that, but I've been having a lot of debates recently and people keep talking vaguely about utterly unshakeable bulletproof evidence and how it proves their point, and then when pressed reference just ONE pop-science or pop-theology book like 'the case for easter' where some christian interviews a load of fundamentalists christians who happen to to have ph.d after their name, (one of which being from a fictional oxford college) like it proves anything at all.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 17:09   #86
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
OK, upon visiting the RDS website and clicking on a clink explaining common myths regarding side effects I noted the following;

'Myth: Animal testing is unreliable, because drugs have different effects in people and animals. The result is that drugs passed as safe in animals are found to have serious side effects in people.'

it then goes on to say as part of the facts;

'But the claim that animal testing is responsible for drug side effects is illogical and shows a basic misunderstanding of the safety testing process.'

Clearly the 'myth' didnt claim that side effects were caused by animal testing but the 'myth' did highlight the bleedin obvious in that drugs passed as safe in animals are found to have side effects in people. because anatomically we are different species!

It then waffles on mentioning several times more that the myth claimed animal testing caused side effects in people when it never does. It uses a list of drugs drawn up by Dr Vernon to prove that animal testing is not responsible for side effects on people, which his list never claims.

So all in all, my faith in the site is somewhat non-existant, its clearly from a vivisectionists point of view and is not unbias.

Also JBG, obviously Dr Vernon is quoted for reference since it is trying to dispel some of the truths he is speaking. I am delighted that his inclusion delighted you so much.

Anyway, seriously guys I cant spend so much time talking about this I really do have other things I should be doing, like work. My boss will kill me if he knew.
It's from the point of view of medical researchers you lunatic. It's written based on the actual medical journals. Unfortunately these I cannot link you to as they're not online but I'd advise reading them. Yes animal testing is not perfectly analogous to human testing, otherwise animals would be humans. It is however, in cases where anatomy is very similar or the same diseases afflict us, a good first step. It's not just like "hay guys this works in monkeys let's market it and sell it to people right now!" That line "dispel some of the truth" is causing me serious physical pain right now.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 17:12   #87
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
Ok, im sorry love. I'll read your response a bit later. promise.
You'll have to learn to read first. I'm not holding my breath.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 17:23   #88
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

The most dissapointing thing for me is that i read this whole thread and i still dont care one way or the other
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 17:24   #89
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
"The challenge was widely publicised and was very simple. I challenged vivisectors - and those who support vivisection - to find ONE patient whose life had been saved as a direct result of animal experimentation - and whom they could prove would now be dead if it had not been for animal experiments."

He claims this proves that animal research has not saved a single life. I say all it proves is that vivisectionists have not been able to prove that it has done so, which is such a fundamentally different statement, you can see why no one is willing to engage this moron at the Union.
I think you've missed some of the subtlety of his argument somewhat - the word "direct". It's very difficult to say that, especially in medicine, lives are saved directly as the result of a single experiment, or small group of experiments. Are lives saved by animal testing? Absolutely. However, proving that lives have been saved directly as the result of a vivisection experiment is nigh on impossible.

It's a standard method of misdirection. Another, recent, example was the "challenge" made by the makers of Starforce, a copyprotection mechanism used by some games. It is extremely unlikely that anyone will "beat" this challenge, and it is extremely likely that they'll use the lack of positives as argument that their system lacks the flaws. However, closer inspection leads us to note that to take this test you have to go to Moscow - at your own expense - and if you pass they will reward you by paying 2 nights stay in Moscow and the plane ticket back. As most computer users are in the US, this represents a not inconsiderable cost of winning, let alone losing. The other thing that they've done is make it so that to pass the challenge you have to prove that Starforce does things that people have never claimed it has done - physically destroy hardware.

Statistics, damn statistics and misdirection.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 17:25   #90
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by eJohn
The most dissapointing thing for me is that i read this whole thread and i still dont care one way or the other
Animal protesters firebomb people involved. They issue repeated death threats. They deal out beatings. They terrorise children of people involved. Grave-robbing is not above them. Very little is above them.

Does that give you more of an opinion on the matter?
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 17:36   #91
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vernon Coleman
First, I have long suspected that patients who are described as being HIV positive are suffering from extremely weak immune systems. And I have, for many years, asked whether such patients might not benefit if they boosted their immune systems.

Second, I rather suspect that if all the people who have tested HIV positive were re-tested there would be countless thousands of apparent `miracle cures'. Would these, I wonder, be patients who had taken the time and effort to boost their immune systems?

LOL

Boost your immune system today, with Dr. Moron's five step wonder program! The drugs you are taking are for tackling something that doesn't exist! THATS why you're dying! They say you have teberculosis because you immune system is compromised by the HIV virus? Hah, you just don't eat enough enough fruit and panda penis
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 17:38   #92
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
ok so what are you saying morality is based on ?
if we accept it has no objective basis, surely we are basing it on "what feels right", or at least, to the majority...
I dont think terms like 'objective' and 'subjective' are productive when it comes to discussing morality, largely because they are have emerged from a philosophical tradition deeply rooted in a Judeo-Christian conception of morality. For instance, I've no idea what it mean in real terms to say that morality either has, or doesnt have, an 'objective basis'. Traditionally this has been taken to mean that ethics is somehow derived from God (or something playing a functionally similar role, such as Kantian Reason), but I assume that a lot of people who say that morality is objective dont mean to imply that God exists. Hence they must mean something else, although I dont know what this is and I doubt they do either. Similarly, when someone says that 'morality is subjective', what is actually meant? If this sentence is just the claim that morality isnt handed down from God then I suppose its true, but I dont think that's particularly interesting. You certainly cant use it to derive "... and therefore people should do whatever they like". All in all, 'objective' and 'subjective' arent well-defined and we'd be best just getting rid off them.

I'd prefer to define morality as being a tool used to achieve certain ends. The nature of human existence necessitates that people have to continually make choices, and rational choices generally need something to guide them. Ethics would be the study of what type of things are generally desirable for humans, and the best corresponding ways to achieve these things. This has more in common with classical (Greek) virtue ethics than it does with post-Christian notions - Aristotle would have been baffled by the question as to whether or not his Nicomachean Ethics was 'subjective'.That type of question just doesnt arise in that context.



Quote:
Again as i mentioned before, what you are saying in respect to the mutual ackowledgement of each others' rights is going against something you said just a few days ago in respect to the mentally impaired
I'm not sure what what I'm meant to have said.

Quote:
is not feeling guilty about an action/situation always a reliable measurement of moral value ?
Well again, I would define morality purely in terms of human values. Theres no obvious reason why you should value monkeys or care about them dying (similarly for Africans I suppose). I'd argue that theres some sort of responsibility to avoid initiating force against Africans, but theres no reason to care about them beyond that. I dont think theres anything wrong with caring if you want to, I just dont think it makes you 'more moral' or has any real impact on your worth as a person. But as I've said, I dont think 'rights' can be extended to animals because they are incapable of comprehending the notions involved. You cant put a cat on trial for murdering your pet mouse for instance, nor can you sue a dog for stealing a football.

Quote:
The same way that seeing a video of a group of chimps playing around, only to see them injected with some synthetic compound would probably fill me (slightly) with empathy.
Well me too, but I'm not sure that feelings alone have much significance here. I'd feel pretty sad if I saw the same group of chimps being torn apart by a lion, but I'd find it stupid if someone recommended punishing the lion for violating their supposed 'rights'.

Quote:
If cosmetics is in your mind a justified reason for testing on animals (and let's get this straight, i am refering to something like making lipstick brighter) then exactly what would you consider an unjustified reason for inflicting pain on / killing an animal ?
I'd find it distasteful if it was completely senseless. I'd worry about the psychology of someone who liked barbequing kittens for instance. I suppose its the difference between having superficial values, and nihilism.

Quote:
exactly what do you mean by rights theory ?
is it social contract theory ?
Nah, social contract theories tend to be diametrically opposed to human rights. I was referring more to the work of libertarian-style writers such as (primarilly) Rand or Nozick.


edit: Missed out several random words in the middle of sentences.

Last edited by Nodrog; 17 Jan 2006 at 18:01.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 18:04   #93
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proxi
LOL

Boost your immune system today, with Dr. Moron's five step wonder program! The drugs you are taking are for tackling something that doesn't exist! THATS why you're dying! They say you have teberculosis because you immune system is compromised by the HIV virus? Hah, you just don't eat enough enough fruit and panda penis
'Dr' Vernon had this to say, '...I like biscuits'.

A true scientist.
It's a load of lies and logical errors. For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coleman
It would be nice, for a start, if the multi billion pound AIDS industry could actually produce the virus which is said to be responsible for this disease.
HIV was isolated in 1983.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 18:11   #94
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
HIV was isolated in 1983.
I think the "HIV != AIDS" lot generally deny this, for example: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/slartefact.htm
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 18:17   #95
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Hay guys while we're at it can I deny the holocaust happened?
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 18:17   #96
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I think the "HIV != AIDS" lot generally deny this, for example: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/slartefact.htm
http://www.aegis.org/topics/hiv_exist.html
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 18:51   #97
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Hay guys while we're at it can I deny the holocaust happened?
Some arabs are already saying this...
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 19:07   #98
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Some arabs are already saying this...
Everyone enjoys a good genocide denial. I dare say we might even have some dissenting opinions on the extent of the khmer rouge massacres on these forums! Probably not though. Maybe the bosnian genocide or the ukranian terror famines instead!
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 19:10   #99
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Everyone enjoys a good genocide denial. I dare say we might even have some dissenting opinions on the extent of the khmer rouge massacres on these forums! Probably not though. Maybe the bosnian genocide or the ukranian terror famines instead!
Talking of the arabs...

Mark Steyn wrote in today's Telegraph that the best way to deal with the threat of nuclear weapons in Iran was to fund revolutionary groups.
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Unread 17 Jan 2006, 19:19   #100
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Because funding revolutionary groups worked so well in the past
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