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Unread 9 Apr 2006, 08:27   #51
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
True belief in something comes from within. Most of us are born with a freeling that there is something more out there.
Most people don't believe in time dilation, but one of these things has been repeatedly proven by evidence and one... one hasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
When we try to suppress that feeling we have to fight it violently.
Nope. Wacky assumptions win the day again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Most of us believe that we have a conscious and a soul. How do you quantify that soul?
First you'd have to prove that it exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
What calculations has science determined about the conscious? What is required to be conscious?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience

Unfortunately the brain, as a giant, hugely interconnected, chemical reaction is quite difficult to explain, like trying to reverse engineer a quantum computer.

What exactly do you mean by "What calculations" anyway? Science isn't a method of quantification.

Science is the only logical way of proving a statement is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Do you believe you are alive? How do you explain your existance when you cannot understand how it is possible?
When I wrong "[/quote]" there, my brain told me to write "[/ignoring]", make of that what you will.

Anyway, I do believe I'm alive, because it's the explanation which does not multiply entities unnecessarily. As to the second sentence, if we ignore the Weak Anthropic principle, then the only real problems that we have concerning "explaining" why we exist comes in term of what happened before the big bang, which is a meaningless question by definition. Please clarify further what you mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Do you have enough faith to even believe that you are a real person?
False dichotomy. You don't need faith to believe that what appears to be true through measurement is true, as that's the only logical and rational standpoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Go beyond yourself and you start to understand that maybe there is something greater than you could begin to imagine.
Maybe there is, but that doesn't mean that we should assume it exists when there's no evidence for it, and, if we assume the bible to be the relevent text, quite a lot of evidence against.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I started out where you are standing now; in disbelief, skepticism, and hatred for that which I refused to understand.
Hatred? You have some person problems, my friend. I don't hate religious people, and I doubt many if any here do either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
It took over 30 years and millions of people for God to convince me that he was in fact God and he was right.
Surely if God wanted to prove he was right, he could come down from the heavens to convince us? Jesus could arrive on earth and show us those scars, those wounds from the cross. Why is God such a bastard that he permits Doubting Thomas, who, let us not forget, was around, supposedly, at the time of Jesus' miracles, a free ticket into heaven, but not the rest of us? Let me see the marks of the nails, let me touch them and put my hand in the wound at his side.
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Unread 9 Apr 2006, 08:39   #52
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Re: travler

I had a great and lovely post made, and then MrL_Jakiri went and trumped it. Back to ye olde drawing board!
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Unread 9 Apr 2006, 22:11   #53
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Re: travler

I saw that Travler asked the question "Do you believe you're alive?".

I think that it is a silly question because why would you do things if you thought you were dead.

Obviously, you might be dead, but if thats true then we all have a shared illusion of being alive, and therefore it is as good as beeing alive anyway.

Think of people being in the Matrix. They didn't know they were in the Matrix until they were told. Same with us, as long as we assume we aren't dead then we're alive, whether we are or not.


PS. God sucks. He's probably gay too.
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Unread 9 Apr 2006, 22:34   #54
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Re: travler

Look what I stumbled upon
Quote:
Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian




10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
EDIT I've just been reading some of the other bits of the website and they're pretty interesting
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Last edited by Ste; 9 Apr 2006 at 22:39.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 02:57   #55
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Re: travler

Jesus really existed. A group of old Catholics sat around and decided how Devine he would be. Then they passed all this info down to Christians.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 03:02   #56
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
Jesus really existed. A group of old Catholics sat around and decided how Devine he would be. Then they passed all this info down to Christians.
joshua bar-joseph the rabbi existed. (the greeks named him jesus.)

there was a council held at nice to decide what should and what should not form 'the bible'.

The Empire adopted christianity. Well costantine did. What you call 'info' is just Imperial heritage.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 04:56   #57
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
I saw that Travler asked the question "Do you believe you're alive?".

I think that it is a silly question because why would you do things if you thought you were dead.
Habit perhaps. Unfinished business maybe. The point is that how do you define your existance? What makes you alive besides "Well of course I am alive."
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Obviously, you might be dead, but if thats true then we all have a shared illusion of being alive, and therefore it is as good as beeing alive anyway.

Think of people being in the Matrix. They didn't know they were in the Matrix until they were told. Same with us, as long as we assume we aren't dead then we're alive, whether we are or not.
So would you be happy being with living the lie or knowing the truth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
PS. God sucks. He's probably gay too.
Not homosexual if thats what you mean. I really love the daughters of Eve, perhaps too much.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 06:12   #58
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
So would you be happy being with living the lie or knowing the truth?
If you didnt know the truth then surely living the lie would be just the same as living knowing the truth. After all, reality is just our perception of the world. In other words, you would not know that you were living a lie and thus you would not care, so that question of yours is silly.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 06:59   #59
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Habit perhaps. Unfinished business maybe. The point is that how do you define your existance? What makes you alive besides "Well of course I am alive."
My purpose on this planet is to plant my seed and die. That is the definition of my existance. I feel most "alive" when taking large risks involving my health and well being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
So would you be happy being with living the lie or knowing the truth?
To "know" the truth is not something even your faith can provide you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Not homosexual if thats what you mean. I really love the daughters of Eve, perhaps too much.
Good to know we agree on something.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 09:19   #60
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: travler

Stop responding to this guy until he responds to me, guys. You're giving him easy targets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Habit perhaps. Unfinished business maybe. The point is that how do you define your existance? What makes you alive besides "Well of course I am alive."
What is required to make me alive? To my mind, the relevent requirements are things like the ability for conscious thought, which I possess. Whether I am alive or not from the perspective of some unknown entity which holds dominion over something or other is utterly irrelevent, because that's a contextual redefinition of "alive" and doesn't really make much difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I really love the daughters of Eve, perhaps too much.
The one on the left or the one on the right?
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 10:08   #61
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Not homosexual if thats what you mean. I really love the daughters of Eve, perhaps too much.
Virgin.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 12:02   #62
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Re: travler

KoeN plays PA aswell :S
 
Unread 10 Apr 2006, 12:08   #63
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Re: travler

no i don't. and who are you?
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 12:17   #64
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Re: travler

lol . i was seeing wat forum nick to use. its ur old TiT pal vegetable btw. u on irc, i havent talked to u in awhile
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 12:26   #65
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Re: travler

speak english mother****er
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 12:47   #66
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler

So would you be happy being with living the lie or knowing the truth?
It wouldn't make any difference. In your mind you'd be alive whether it was illusion or not,
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 12:49   #67
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Re: travler

Travler. if the Bible says incest is wrong, where did Cain & Abel get their wives?
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 12:52   #68
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Re: travler

KaneED - see the Official God FAQ.
I think it will answer all your questions.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 13:03   #69
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Re: travler

wow, thanks Ste
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 14:28   #70
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Stop responding to this guy until he responds to me, guys. You're giving him easy targets
he seems incapable of replying to any serious argument.

he's an appalling charlatan.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 15:33   #71
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
he seems incapable of replying to any serious argument.

he's an appalling charlatan.
I agree entirely, lets get into a backslapping circlejerk.
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:19   #72
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I agree entirely, lets get into a backslapping circlejerk.
wouldn't that get uncomfortable?
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:23   #73
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
wouldn't that get uncomfortable?
You have two hands don't you?
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 16:44   #74
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Re: travler

yeah, but the strain on the shoulders after a little while...
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 17:31   #75
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
yeah, but the strain on the shoulders after a little while...
just make sure everyone stays close together then it shouldn't be so strenuous
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Unread 10 Apr 2006, 20:37   #76
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Re: travler

http://www.photodump.com/direct/Reginleif/god.jpg
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 02:35   #77
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Virgin.
This is funny. I almost wish this was true. Being a parent of 3 kids is really taxing and keeps me from having enough time to be BC/DC/MO in an alliance.

I hear the word "I want" about a hundred times a day.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 02:54   #78
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
This is funny. I almost wish this was true. Being a parent of 3 kids is really taxing and keeps me from having enough time to be BC/DC/MO in an alliance.

I hear the word "I want" about a hundred times a day.
now, I don't recall too much PA terminology, but I don't think BCs are about loving thy neighbour, and I'm fairly sure DCs don't turn the other cheek.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 03:13   #79
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
now, I don't recall too much PA terminology, but I don't think BCs are about loving thy neighbour, and I'm fairly sure DCs don't turn the other cheek.
Heh, the Bible is filled with war. Turning the other cheek may apply in a personal situation but sometimes the battle is not ours.

Exodus 15:3
The LORD is a warrior;
the LORD is his name.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 03:15   #80
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Heh, the Bible is filled with war. Turning the other cheek may apply in a personal situation but sometimes the battle is not ours.

Exodus 15:3
The LORD is a warrior;
the LORD is his name.
you are doctrinally ignorant
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 09:37   #81
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
This is funny. I almost wish this was true. Being a parent of 3 kids is really taxing and keeps me from having enough time to be BC/DC/MO in an alliance.

I hear the word "I want" about a hundred times a day.
Maybe it's about time you told them they were adopted. Also the bible is filled with war because it was written by a horde of bloodthirsty savages. I don't remember Jesus telling the Apostles to go forth and slaughter the unbelievers too often do you?
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 10:53   #82
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Re: travler

God created man in his own image for some unknown reason

or

Man created god in his own image to cope with fear of the unknown

Religion and god are entiarly man made things to cope with our own failing and our biggest fear. We are fightened of what we dont understand and cant quantify. In By gone years religion was there to help people get through there day to day lives. It provided answers to some unanswered questions and gave people who that there was something better after life. Which was pretty shitty by todays standards.

Now we have a greater understanding of the universe around us and our place in it. Due to the advances we have made as a species. Yet some people seem to want to cling desperatly to the hope that they are so much more than an animal. That they are the creatures of some greater power. It makes me sad and makes them more than slightly egotistical.

Oww well thus is the nature of the animals we are. If religion gives you hope and comfort then thats great but please dont preach to us none beleavers
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 12:04   #83
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
This is funny. I almost wish this was true. Being a parent of 3 kids is really taxing and keeps me from having enough time to be BC/DC/MO in an alliance.

I hear the word "I want" about a hundred times a day.
God enjoys fruitcake, but it has to be made in the flames of burning heretics.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 12:18   #84
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
God enjoys fruitcake, but it has to be made in the flames of burning heretics.
Thats a given though, it just doesn't taste the same otherwise
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 13:28   #85
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Re: travler

You're as mad as a hatter, you religious fruitcake. Stop hindering my evolution, you nutty ape.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 14:14   #86
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
You're as mad as a hatter, you religious fruitcake. Stop hindering my evolution, you nutty ape.
Boogster has evolved
At least we've got through to one!
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 14:49   #87
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Re: travler

Science will probably never 'explain' consciousness in the sense that you mean, but saying "God did it" doesnt really get us anywhere. If youre unhappy about consciousness being an unknown mystery, then why dont you feel the same need to ask questions like "but why does God exist?". Theres more unsolvable puzzles in Christian dogma than there is in just taking consciousness as a bizarre-yet-brute fact, although admittedly neither is particularly satisfactory.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 18:33   #88
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
You're as mad as a hatter, you religious fruitcake. Stop hindering my evolution, you nutty ape.
Actually I believe in evolution and I lean towards the Big Bang. Just I feel that the whole underlying system that allows everything to be possible was set up by a Greater intelligence and is not just random. I believe that the universe was set and ordered with a vastly more complex structure and chain of events than a Creationist could comprehend.

Let's take the idea of a car instead of man:

The creationist believes that God created the car as is no questions asked.

The pure science/evolutionist believes that car evolves from lesser vehicles and eventually can be traced back to base components which have always existed without a God

The Intellegent design types would believe that God created a system that allowed base components to evolve so that they would eventually create the car.

The main difference in these three is that the first two see what is and try to explain where it came from.

The third sees what is and tries to explain how it was planned to be that way from the begining as through the creator was the ultimate reverse engineer and was able to know the finished product and went backwards in time creating each step of the way to the beginning. Sounded nuts to me at first but the more I examine it, it really seems to make sense.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
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You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 18:49   #89
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Re: travler

you're not responding to any of the many counter arguments put to you.

basically.

you're just a zealot banging a drum.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 19:14   #90
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Actually I believe in evolution and I lean towards the Big Bang. Just I feel that the whole underlying system that allows everything to be possible was set up by a Greater intelligence and is not just random. I believe that the universe was set and ordered with a vastly more complex structure and chain of events than a Creationist could comprehend.

Let's take the idea of a car instead of man:

The creationist believes that God created the car as is no questions asked.

The pure science/evolutionist believes that car evolves from lesser vehicles and eventually can be traced back to base components which have always existed without a God

The Intellegent design types would believe that God created a system that allowed base components to evolve so that they would eventually create the car.

The main difference in these three is that the first two see what is and try to explain where it came from.

The third sees what is and tries to explain how it was planned to be that way from the begining as through the creator was the ultimate reverse engineer and was able to know the finished product and went backwards in time creating each step of the way to the beginning. Sounded nuts to me at first but the more I examine it, it really seems to make sense.
Nice to know your base your theories on your feelings. Necessarily attributing a creator to the universe is committing a basic category level error.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 19:21   #91
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The third sees what is and tries to explain how it was planned to be that way from the begining as through the creator was the ultimate reverse engineer and was able to know the finished product and went backwards in time creating each step of the way to the beginning. Sounded nuts to me at first but the more I examine it, it really seems to make sense.
The third isnt 'explaining' anything. Hes just stating the current scientific doctrine and then adding "(but God did it)" at the end.


I shall now correct the flaws in heathen geometry and establish it on a firm Christian axiomatic foundation:

Axiom 1: Any two points can be joined by a straight line, and straight lines are straight because God made them that way.
Axiom 2: Any straight line segment can be extended indefinitely in a straight line, by the grace of God
Axiom 3: Given any straight line segment, a circle can be drawn having the segment as radius and one endpoint as center (the radius of a circle is pi times its diameter, and pi has the value it does because God created it thus)
Axiom 4: All right angles are congruent except the ones God makes otherwise.
Axiom 5: If two lines are drawn which intersect a third in such a way that the sum of the inner angles on one side is less than two right angles, then the two lines inevitably must intersect each other on that side if extended far enough, praise the Lord

Last edited by Nodrog; 11 Apr 2006 at 19:28.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 19:38   #92
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
you're not responding to any of the many counter arguments put to you.

basically.

you're just a zealot banging a drum.
To be fair, he didn't respond to my point about the cake either.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 19:43   #93
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
To be fair, he didn't respond to my point about the cake ether.
Fixed for great taste.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 20:55   #94
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Nice to know your base your theories on your feelings. Necessarily attributing a creator to the universe is committing a basic category level error.
So is the reverse. Without creation nothing would exist. But since something does exist creation happened.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 20:58   #95
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Re: travler

Perhaps creation never happened. Perhaps the universe has always been here.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 21:00   #96
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
So is the reverse. Without creation nothing would exist. But since something does exist creation happened.
Are you braindead?
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 21:11   #97
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Are you braindead?
Lol. I could ask the same. Were you born? Yes or no? So if you were born would it be wrong to say that you were created?

If no then you have always been here and you are eternal.

If you do agree that you were created then why is the creation of the Universe so hard to believe?

Are not stars born from particular clouds in space? And what do scientist's call it? .......Star creation.

So basic logic states that if a is = to b ,and b is = to c, then a is = to c

If you were created, and stars are created, then the universe was created.
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 21:12   #98
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Lol. I could ask the same. Were you born? Yes or no? So if you were born would it be wrong to say that you were created?

If no then you have always been here and you are eternal.

If you do agree that you were created then why is the creation of the Universe so hard to believe?

Are not stars born from particular clouds in space? And what do scientist's call it? .......Star creation.

So basic logic states that if a is = to b ,and b is = to c, then a is = to c

If you were created, and stars are created, then the universe was created.
how to abuse a language lesson: one.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 21:25   #99
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Lol. I could ask the same. Were you born? Yes or no? So if you were born would it be wrong to say that you were created?

If no then you have always been here and you are eternal.

If you do agree that you were created then why is the creation of the Universe so hard to believe?

Are not stars born from particular clouds in space? And what do scientist's call it? .......Star creation.

So basic logic states that if a is = to b ,and b is = to c, then a is = to c

If you were created, and stars are created, then the universe was created.
This is getting pathetic. All human beings have two legs, therefore the human race has two legs. THAT is the logic you are using.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 21:38   #100
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Re: travler

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This is getting pathetic. All human beings have two legs, therefore the human race has two legs. THAT is the logic you are using.
Thats not really an if/then type statement. Should be more like:

If a human has two legs and all humans are alike then all humans have two legs.

Maybe more like: If man can be compared to stars as stars can be compared to the universe then man could be compared to the universe.

Does that make it a little easier?
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Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
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