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Unread 20 Jan 2009, 16:56   #1
EnqVertisua
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When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

When do you think it is best to use the bonus upgrade people have said wait untill tick 300.. why would you do that and not just use at the start of round..
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Unread 20 Jan 2009, 18:25   #2
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

It depends on your strategy.

Fast scanners would do well to get upgraded when the research bonus gives them au or jgp instantly (iirc, that's around tick 85/112).

Distwhores and high amp scanners should probably wait a bit longer, to get a bigger construction bonus. Not too long though, else the period of usefulness (which is between upgrading and maxing out) becomes to short. I'd say tick 300.

Early attackers should probably upgrade around tick 64 to get the resource bonus, so they'll have a bigger fleet. This strategy can be combined with cr/bs or TT rushers, who should wait until siege weapons and TT-3/4, respectively.

And last but not least, FC builders should wait until spending the construction bonus maxes out their FCs, which is highly dependant on race and gov, but is probably between tick 500 and 650.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 20 Jan 2009 at 18:36. Reason: typo
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Unread 20 Jan 2009, 18:31   #3
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Early attackers should probably upgrade around tick 64 to get the resource bonus, so they'll have a bigger fleet. This strategy can be combined with cr/bs or TT rushers, who should wait until siege weapons and TT-3/4, respectively..
What resource bonus would this give you its my 2nd round playing and a bit of a noob...
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Unread 20 Jan 2009, 18:35   #4
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

5000 + 4000 * 64 = 261000 of each.
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Unread 20 Jan 2009, 19:07   #5
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

would it be better to wait for the resource bonus rather than initiating roids at the start
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Unread 20 Jan 2009, 19:15   #6
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

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Originally Posted by EnqVertisua View Post
would it be better to wait for the resource bonus rather than initiating roids at the start
Depends what strategy you're playing.
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Unread 20 Jan 2009, 19:17   #7
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

Im planning on attacking early and getting plenty of roids
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Unread 20 Jan 2009, 22:20   #8
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

Then get res around t60ish and build your fleet.

However if you're attacking early I'm confused as to why you want to go zik Cr.

There's no chance of attacking early for roids unless you're Fi/Co or possibly Fr/De.
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Unread 21 Jan 2009, 11:30   #9
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

was planning on zik cutlass for early attacks.. and ionclad for podding
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Unread 21 Jan 2009, 11:53   #10
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

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Originally Posted by EnqVertisua View Post
was planning on zik cutlass for early attacks.. and ionclad for podding
And its covered with ~~500-1000 fr/de ships. Really no point attacking with cutlasses unless you can steal some fi/co pods.

Just wait until you can get your CR out and bash people without anti cr/bs, yes there will be few of them in the first days. For first day build some cutlasses and defend ingal and try to get some co pods, if you get nice amount then you can consider on going co but remember there's always a danger on ****ing up if you cant steal enough in future so always keep your cr up as back up plan.
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Unread 21 Jan 2009, 12:04   #11
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

thanks for the tip
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Unread 22 Jan 2009, 11:43   #12
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

Bonus use is highly dependant upon the type of benefit you wish to gain, and your overall expectation of sustaining the gains you get via bonus use.

Early use is effective to A) rush scans, B) rush to siege weapons

(An alternate plan, early bonus use to gain core resource tech, is a null option. The amount of resources you gain by waiting to use the bonus is greater than what you derive from finishing the first core resource tech. So your net effect of bonus use on core research is easily off-set by following a "normal" build plan, waiting to use the bonus, and finishing core somewhere around tick 300- right BEFORE you take your bonus)

The problem with rushing scans via early use is your bonus use on researches tend to be less effective than use on constructions might be a bit later. CAT scanners may be better off going with later use, and putting their bonus into constructions, while Terran scanners might be better served using their bonus to boost research output for earlier scan techs, and use thier fast construction time to get their amps.

Either way, a scanner is a "specialty" type planet, whose sole reason for playing is to give their alliance/galaxy (whatever "group" they are a part of) a general edge on the universe in the form of early scan availability. The edge gained from bonus use by scanners cannot be easily off-set by opponents' strategies (only SK use vs amps is an effective anti-scanner tactic), but it is totally dependant upon a scanner's wish to be of best use to his/her "team".

You are not planning on being a scanner though...

The problem with bonus use to rush siege weapons is that your early gains may not be sustainable. Early use sacrifices the benefits of a BIGGER bonus (in resources and const/research) later on, for the chance at early roids. If/when you GET those early roids, you must hold on to them though. As you will be a "fat" target, if you lack a good alliance or a good galaxy/bp to help protect your gains, it is all too likely you will simply find that you lose the benefits your rush to siege weapons gave you. Thus, you may have been better off in the long run to have waited.

Additionally, as a ZIK you may find that rushing siege weapons with early bonus use does not give you the type of "edge" on the universe you expect. With numerous FR/DE class anti-CR ships available, all of which fire BEFORE ZIK CR fires on DE/FR, if you do not have a consistent attack partner who has also elected to rush siege weapons, your target choices may be extremely limited. In short, the benefit you do gain from early bonus use on a rush to seige weapons is relatively easy for anyone in the universe to off-set.

So your goal for use of your bonus should be to identify the use which is most sustainable AND which is the most effective against all the various build patterns in the universe...

My suggestion:

1) If you wish to rush seige weapons, do it via use of the democracy government option, and save your bonus. You can get to CR shortly after protection ends without using the bonus.

2) Follow your "normal" planet development pattern.

3) As a ZIK, defend in gal/ally early, as your best ship caps are those you make on defense (ship caps + salvage).

4) Sometime between tick 250-350, use your bonus on resources to effect a one-time self-defense ship build. With normal attacks, you should easily have between 400-600 roids (or more). Even if you lose some roids the next night, "saving" 100-150 roids for 24 hours adds significantly to your planet.

5) As for the choice between research and construction use, that choice is dependant upon your individual circumstances.

If you want to go the route of distorter use, you can use your bonus on construction points to add distorters.

If you wish to gain more resources, you can use the bonus on FC construction (up to 60 FC max), or on refineries to balance your resources for optimal use in ship building (you'll find that as you cap roids, you'll probably NOT cap enough Eonium roids to maintain ship builds with ALL resources without trading).

An alternate way of looking at your bonus use is to put the bonus into research. This will take a litte bit of explaining...

PA researches follow 2 basic "tracks" for non-scanner/cov op'pers:

There is a "Primary track", consisting of your travel techs, the infrastructure techs you need to continue constructions, the HCT techs you need to use all the roids you have (or will cap), and the hull techs you need to build your fleet.

The "Secondary track" consists of scan techs, cov op techs, core techs, and any infrastructure or roid use techs above those you need for immediate use.

Bonus use between tick 250-350 SHOULD find that you are well along on the research of your primary track, so completion of any researches along the primary track will be quite expensive in terms of research points. Between tick 250-350, you should also find that (as an attack based planet) you PROBABLY have not begun your secondary track researches, thus those reasearches will be quite cheap. The research points you've gained by waiting give you more "bang for the buck" when used on "cheap" reseaches...

Therefore, if you consider using the bonus on research, and your score is quite large in comparison to the universe (say t150+), you MAY find your "best use" to be research along the scan track, to get to I-scans as quickly as possible (for your own defense). This is highly effective if your alliance does not have a solid scanner group. Of course any Primary researches should be completed forst, but then putting your research points into scans gives you a benefit which cannot be off-set easily by any universal tactics.

If your score is lower, you may want to consider putting research points into cov op's. with a low score, and a high stealth (also a benefit of Demo gov), you can add resources via bank hacking, or just work cov op's for XP in additions to your attacks. Again, these are planetary benefits which cannot be off-set by universal tactics.

So to sum this long post up, it is up to YOU to find the best use of your bonus. But no matter what you decide, you should make certain your choice gives you benefits which are both sustainable, and which cannot be off-set by the tactics your opponents may choose.
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Unread 22 Jan 2009, 12:10   #13
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

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Originally Posted by Memtok View Post
The problem with rushing scans via early use is your bonus use on researches tend to be less effective than use on constructions might be a bit later. CAT scanners may be better off going with later use, and putting their bonus into constructions, while Terran scanners might be better served using their bonus to boost research output for earlier scan techs, and use thier fast construction time to get their amps.
I disagree. Fast scanners should focus all their attention on getting scans as fast as possible. This implies using the bonus to achieve this, rather than using it to achieve some unrelated goal. An alliance needs 2 fast scanners and 2 high amp scanners. It doesn't matter if the high amp scanners are a little late with their research, because that's what the fast scanners are for. It doesn't matter for fast scanners to be a little low on amps, because that's what the high amp scanners are for.

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Additionally, as a ZIK you may find that rushing siege weapons with early bonus use does not give you the type of "edge" on the universe you expect. With numerous FR/DE class anti-CR ships available, all of which fire BEFORE ZIK CR fires on DE/FR, if you do not have a consistent attack partner who has also elected to rush siege weapons, your target choices may be extremely limited. In short, the benefit you do gain from early bonus use on a rush to seige weapons is relatively easy for anyone in the universe to off-set.
The point of rushing Siege Weapons is that you catch people off guard. They won't have anti-CR/BS defence ready at that time, allowing you to cap early and cap hard. The stunt Kenny pulled a couple of rounds ago, as well as Benneh's tendency to rush Cat CR are prime examples of this mechanism in action.

Rushing is very much an all-in strategy, either rush well, or don't bother. As soon as you slow down even just 15 ticks, your rush will be much less effective because people will be more ready for you the more time passes. Rushing is also a high level strategy, in that you only really benefit from it if your galaxy or alliance has the ability to back you up (this is a euphenism for 'defend you until past tick 400'), and as such I wouldn't recommend it to a new player. Go slow and steady, rather than fast and risky.


I would recommend getting some factories, then 60 FCs, then amps/dists/refineries. Use the construction bonus around tick 450-500, it's a good balance between waiting time and bonus size. The research bonus is useless for low and mid level players in lower tier alliances (outside the top5), as its primary advantage lies in using it for HCT research (especially for Xans), which only top100 planets need to hurry with.
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Unread 22 Jan 2009, 22:13   #14
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

I can't disagree with what you say Mzyxptlk.

you "disagreement" with my statements aobut scanners is not a REAL disagreement- I just presented it without explaination of the difference between a fast scan/hi amp scanner. Generally, a Terran is better off rushing to scan techs, and letting thier fast const get amps, and a CAT scanner is better off using their fast research to get scan techs normally, then bonus'ing up their amps...so we DO agree there.

The point I was trying to make re: siege weapons rush is that it is NOT a "bullet proof" strategy. If you do not have the support it takes to HOLD early roids, getting them won't matter. Also, if you consider that a goodly portion of the "aware" universe will know early bs/cr is possible, they will take steps to build def vs your siege weapons rush. So a siege weapons rush may not only NOT be sustainable for some, it may also be off-set by a unvierse which builds de/fr type anti CR.

I will also admit that the proposal I put forth of using the bonus to rush your secondary research track is not a BIG advantage. but even a small advantage (knowing exactly what is attacking you) will be useful to off-set some of the possible fakes which may be sent at you. Plus, getting your I-scans thru bonus use is something the universe cannot take away from you easily (except by out building your amps with distorters).

One thing I stand firmly behind is the theory of using the bonus as a one-time self-def build. Essentially you do not pick an exact tick to use your bonus, but rather let an attacker pick it for you. that one-time self def boost you get will often be enough to let your ally easily cover you, and especially in THIS round with its wide spread stats, you may be able to entirely self-cover via build thru building an "off-class" def ship your attack hasn't accounted for in his original send.

the point I was putting out was:

IF you DO use the bonus for your secondary research track, you will find diminishing returns after tick 250-350. this is because you will be working on the secondary researches anyway, and the cost of finishing the more expensive researches will eat up any research pt bonus you could get by waiting longer than tick 350 or so...

If you are going to use the bonus on constructions, then waiting longer tends not to have as great a negative benefit (altho waiting TOO long may find youve built so many const that you cannot use all your bonus pts because of the 150 const limit...but that would be an extreme)
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Unread 22 Jan 2009, 23:15   #15
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

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you "disagreement" with my statements aobut scanners is not a REAL disagreement- I just presented it without explaination of the difference between a fast scan/hi amp scanner. Generally, a Terran is better off rushing to scan techs, and letting thier fast const get amps, and a CAT scanner is better off using their fast research to get scan techs normally, then bonus'ing up their amps...so we DO agree there.
No, we don't. You say terrans should get the research bonus; I say that this is useless because they can't beat caths that choose the research bonus. You say that caths should get the construction bonus; I say that this is even more useless, because they can't beat terrans, even if terrans don't upgrade.

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The point I was trying to make re: siege weapons rush is that it is NOT a "bullet proof" strategy. If you do not have the support it takes to HOLD early roids, getting them won't matter. Also, if you consider that a goodly portion of the "aware" universe will know early bs/cr is possible, they will take steps to build def vs your siege weapons rush. So a siege weapons rush may not only NOT be sustainable for some, it may also be off-set by a unvierse which builds de/fr type anti CR.
It could be. But it won't. Because the low number of CR/BS rushers doesn't warrant a significant investment in anti-CR/BS, especially not at tick 72, when a lot of resources are needed to stop fleets.

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I will also admit that the proposal I put forth of using the bonus to rush your secondary research track is not a BIG advantage. but even a small advantage (knowing exactly what is attacking you) will be useful to off-set some of the possible fakes which may be sent at you. Plus, getting your I-scans thru bonus use is something the universe cannot take away from you easily (except by out building your amps with distorters).
The increased income for mid level players is worth more than a bunch of research points they don't need anyway, because they don't need to waste a lot of time on HCT.

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One thing I stand firmly behind is the theory of using the bonus as a one-time self-def build. Essentially you do not pick an exact tick to use your bonus, but rather let an attacker pick it for you. that one-time self def boost you get will often be enough to let your ally easily cover you, and especially in THIS round with its wide spread stats, you may be able to entirely self-cover via build thru building an "off-class" def ship your attack hasn't accounted for in his original send.
Theoretically, this could work. In practive, the bonus is too small to be useful. At the very last tick, the bonus comes down to a whopping 67250 value. I'll leave it to you to decide how significant that is for planets with (say) 1.5m value.
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Unread 23 Jan 2009, 12:35   #16
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

The longer u wait the bigger the bonus. Using it before you NEED it, is, average.
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Unread 25 Jan 2009, 16:00   #17
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

Cheers all
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Unread 26 Jan 2009, 07:40   #18
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

I can't understand all this bonus nonsense. The res point bonus effectively means jgps are available as soon as protection ends (tick 78 by my reckoning), which completely removes the exciting early round crash period - something PA has always had, at least for the first night of attacks.

I think it's silly. But I don't really care because PA is dead anyway.
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Unread 26 Jan 2009, 07:56   #19
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Re: When is it BEST to use BONUS from upgrade

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I think it's silly. But I don't really care because PA is dead anyway.
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Originally Posted by VenoX View Post
Your attempts to be e-cool have been noted and laughed off as terrible.
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