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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 13:28   #1
DragonKing
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Salvaging ships

We have now been given the option to salvage ships which i think is a really good addition. But at a 50% return rate it means people are just sacraficing major amounts of value for not much gain. Okay you could get rid of some ships to save yourself from incoming but in the end you would be losing out.

I suggest the PA team rise the rate to 90% this way it becomes a viable option and allows a lot more flexibility in changing fleets around.
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 13:51   #2
Mzyxptlk
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Re: Salvaging ships

No. What you suggest basically comes down to being able to change your fleet from fi/co to cr/bs willy-nilly. Terrible idea: makes it impossible to predict what kind of defence you're going to need in wars. More swap-the-roid and less strategic thought.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 14:59   #3
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Re: Salvaging ships

Personally I can't see myself ever using this feature even if the return was 100% - if you have exploitable gaps in your fleet, changing ships to counter one type of incoming will only make a hole elsewhere that will attract a different kind.

But while the subject has come up, can we please call it something like scrap or even sell ships, salvage is a term already in use and giving it multiple meanings just adds needless confusion.
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 15:07   #4
Mzyxptlk
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Re: Salvaging ships

Agreed. I'd go for selling, "scrap", while a different word, has pretty much the same meaning as "salvage".
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 15:31   #5
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Re: Salvaging ships

i think the only real reason for this feature is if you steal ships that are useless to your fleet. if you steal rubbish ships in def then its still worth it to "sell" them as u will of got salvage from the def.
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 17:53   #6
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Re: Salvaging ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
i think the only real reason for this feature is if you steal ships that are useless to your fleet. if you steal rubbish ships in def then its still worth it to "sell" them as u will of got salvage from the def.
unless u have decent value and u actually do not get any salvage from the defences ty to most disturbing game chance in planetarion recently..

keep on with things that are denting bigger players and once again giving needless edge for the smaller ones
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 17:56   #7
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Re: Salvaging ships

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Originally Posted by neroon View Post
unless u have decent value and u actually do not get any salvage from the defences ty to most disturbing game chance in planetarion recently..

keep on with things that are denting bigger players and once again giving needless edge for the smaller ones
the salvage change was nothing to do with limiting bigger players or helping smaller players, it was due to the prevelance for salvage donations on top planet to get them the win.
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 18:05   #8
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Re: Salvaging ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
the salvage change was nothing to do with limiting bigger players or helping smaller players, it was due to the prevelance for salvage donations on top planet to get them the win.
Still doesn't stop the likes of Alki from trying
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 18:25   #9
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Re: Salvaging ships

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Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
the salvage change was nothing to do with limiting bigger players or helping smaller players, it was due to the prevelance for salvage donations on top planet to get them the win.
then the one responsible of this should think for a good way before implementing something that dosent make sense and cripples the players.. but i guess thats something that happens on regular basis in pa
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 18:48   #10
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Re: Salvaging ships

a heavy value planet now has literally no good motivation to send defence where they lose ships...salvage is completely f*cked!
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 19:02   #11
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Re: Salvaging ships

erm.. u kinda put it mildly.. good value planet even can`t defend nemore unless the attackers are 100% forzen/killed before they shoot at you.. its not about motivation, its about avoiding losing score/value

and yeah thats really fkced up... i had quite a laugh when i defended that ult that whole dlr carshed on.. lost 6660 widows in defence while attackers lost ~23mill value? and got back salvage to replace 6k wids or something, even a tad less i think..

this is not working, change it back for next round!
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 19:05   #12
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Re: Salvaging ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by neroon
erm.. u kinda put it mildly.. good value planet even can`t defend nemore unless the attackers are 100% forzen/killed before they shoot at you.. its not about motivation, its about avoiding losing score/value

and yeah thats really fkced up... i had quite a laugh when i defended that ult that whole dlr carshed on.. lost 6660 widows in defence while attackers lost ~23mill value? and got back salvage to replace 6k wids or something, even a tad less i think..

this is not working, change it back for next round!
One of our scanners lost like 4.5k widows there and got about 6.5m each in salv
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 19:08   #13
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Re: Salvaging ships

i agree that the formula could do with some tweaking but back to the old salvage crash ridiculous score gains in the last week would be worse.
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 19:26   #14
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Re: Salvaging ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
i agree that the formula could do with some tweaking but back to the old salvage crash ridiculous score gains in the last week would be worse.
totally understandable and noone wants to see those ugly donations.. tho there must be other ways eh..

however if they keep it like it was implemented for this round then its more worse than changing it back to previous rounds thing:P
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 19:52   #15
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Re: Salvaging ships

Killing off salvage donations is easy: just limit the amount of salvage people can receive to how much they've lost. That also makes normal value-gaining steals impossible though.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 29 Sep 2011 at 23:41.
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 21:08   #16
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Re: Salvaging ships

Could the new salvage rules possibly be used in the last week - when most salvage donations happen?? Like when PA team turn off 'Vac Mode' turn on 'Screwed Salvage mode' ?

On the topic...The 'scrapping thing really only benefits Ziks who steal something that doesnt fit into there fleet or that isnt as powerful as what they can already produce... ie if you steal banshees then you 'scrap' them but beetles, scarabs or appiritions you would keep.
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 21:25   #17
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Re: Salvaging ships

"Everyone knows it: the universe will end in one week. Your crews no longer care: salvage rates reduced by 50%."
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 22:19   #18
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Re: Salvaging ships

precisely Mz
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Unread 29 Sep 2011, 23:16   #19
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Re: Salvaging ships

"So let's donate this week." cries the universe.

I think like someone said above capping it to what you lose but maybe plus 10-20%. This percentage could be influenced by value like the current situation.
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Unread 30 Sep 2011, 11:32   #20
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Re: Salvaging ships

Top Value planets should be able to get salvage up to what they lost.
The remaining attackers fleet salvage can be assigned as usual then.

With regard to salvaging ships for 50%, i think it's the most useless feature introduced to PA in a long time. Unless you are a zik, i don't see the point of salvaging ships. Even as a zik, i would not use it, bc the 50% return is absurdly low. I would remove this ability for races that do not steal, and enable it with a higher return (75% - 80%) for races that do steal, and then only for ships that they can't produce themselves, because let's face it, it's annoying as hell to lose almost your whole anti-x in a defence that leaves one completely open to those type of attacks.
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Unread 30 Sep 2011, 12:30   #21
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Re: Salvaging ships

For ships you never use, 50% can be a sufficient return. 100k value that always sits in base on run-and-hide is less useful than 50k value that gets to go on adventures. Obviously, as the round progresses, the time available for attacking and defending decreases, so the balance shifts in favour of not selling your ships, but I would not say that's the case earlier in the round.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 30 Sep 2011, 23:23   #22
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Re: Salvaging ships

Simple(r) solution; remove loss of score. You can now safely convert useless ships without abusing it to switch fleets.

Also fixes a lot of other issues. (no, crashing value is still bad)
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Unread 1 Oct 2011, 01:21   #23
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Re: Salvaging ships

Removing the score loss from salvaging ships is even more of an abuse. Suddenly everybody can just generate extra score at rounds end by salavging fleet and building a new one
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Unread 1 Oct 2011, 10:58   #24
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Re: Salvaging ships

come to think about it.. it would be quite fun actually to be able to change fleets with a minimal loss during round..

for some it fcks up the preround thoughts on races and stuff, still it can later used for their own benefit again by switching fleets in whole alliance, etc..

i know its raw and tad ridiculous, but could be fun
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Unread 1 Oct 2011, 21:40   #25
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Re: Salvaging ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonKing View Post
Removing the score loss from salvaging ships is even more of an abuse. Suddenly everybody can just generate extra score at rounds end by salavging fleet and building a new one

Wow, really?

Do I really need to explain that you'd remove the score loss from salvaging but still lose enough to compensate for what you'd gain from spending the resources?

Logic 101. C'mon.
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