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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 13:30   #1
Ferretus
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Why should I come back?

I received a mail from the PA team as no doubt many of the old players did asking to come back to the happy world of PA. The game has no doubt changed a lot since last time I played but I wanted to hear what peoples opinions are and basically get an idea of whether its actually worth it.

Some background
I played PA from R2-14. Founded ARS which ran from R2-12 and we had our moments of glory as well as our deadspots. The last two rounds I flew with Wolfpack.

Reason for leaving
PA is too demanding on time. I have a life, a house, a decent job so there is no way I will be playing the hard core style originally required. No plans to be waiting up til 4am to see if I got incoming, or likewise setting alarms for research etc. Has any of this changed?
The players are/were on the whole a bunch of whining kids more concerned with score than common courtesy, friendship and looking out for one another. For the majority of my PA career I was the GC of my gal, in the earlier years often an officer/minister. Typically what would happen, is that after you have set up the IRC room and worked out your cluster relations seeing who is gonna raid in cluster and who isn't some trumped up kid backed by his alliance mates will seize control typically ending in the galaxy getting pounded and the GC and his mates jumping somewhere else. Has anything been put in place to promote people getting along?
and finally...the forums were used basically as an opportunity to slag people off and give negative ratings to their profile, taking the game fights to the forums. what has been put in place to promote common courtesy on the forums and addressing the issues of the feedback system?

What has changed
Finally can someone give me a quick run down and what is good and what is bad about the new game. Last time I played there was 4 races, now I see we got a 5th. Also something about turn points and governments etc so if someone can give me a crash course without wasting time hearing the bias of the manual that would be great.

Basically at 28, I'm finding the online community just isn't as nice as it used to be with the most common word thrown about being 'noob'. PA used to be the worst for this and so we as a clan moved onto other things. Other games are similar but PA in particular was very bad. I doubt this has changed but are the other aspects of the game good enough to put up with this?

I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say.

Thanks,

Regards

Ferretus
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Please bear in mind that much of what I say is intended to cause discussion. It may not reflect my personal favouritism or even have any involvement with my situation. In short bitching at me is pointless, so discuss the idea :-)
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 13:46   #2
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
Has any of this changed?
The community in general is a lot less active, at least to my perception.

Quote:
The players are/were on the whole a bunch of whining kids more concerned with score than common courtesy, friendship and looking out for one another.
The same, except that the lack of common courtesy applies not only to lots of players, but also to a fair number of the game team (see various threads regarding rules).

Quote:
Has anything been put in place to promote people getting along?
More and more rules. A lot of counterproductive things, I suppose.

Quote:
what has been put in place to promote common courtesy on the forums and addressing the issues of the feedback system?
The courtesy of the "feedback system" is that you can anonymously trounce and insult people. And then there's the "my epenis got hurt because of some GD'ers massive rep power".

Quote:
What has changed
Technically, not much. There's more micromanagement to your planet, but not so much that it'd really make an effect. The fifth race was invented by Paisley in order to bring something cool, like the icing on a cake, but it ended up becoming (for stupid reasons, like the overpowered racial abilities, salvage increases, so on) the "winner race" of the agenda. Monroe's recent stats did little to change this, actually, the polarization just escalated more and more. (and now we're stuck with these stats for god knows why and how long).

That's the negative side!
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 13:49   #3
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Re: Why should I come back?

Joining an alliance with a good community remedies the hostile people you may have in some alliances due to stress bearing down on them or they're just like that. You'll get silly people but their kind of silliness is more positive/harmless rather than to drive you nots so you may hear noob get thrown around a lot but it's in fun, like my HC always call me noob...they seem to be joking...I think.

As for time I recommend trying the free round but streamline your activity and work to build an active gal so you can cross def fleets. That way you can still wake up at like 7/8 am and even later (depends where you're in the world) and just come back to check on attack landings and then in the evening you can check targets and prelaunch before you go to bed.

pa is also a lot of luck I say, for example round 20 I was very active but only came top 200 (probably because it was an xp round and I didn't even know what that was -_-'') while in r21 I was less active but did better, admittedly I did wake up earlier for def when my GC phoned me.

pa is what you make of it.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 13:56   #4
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
Reason for leaving
PA is too demanding on time. I have a life, a house, a decent job so there is no way I will be playing the hard core style originally required. No plans to be waiting up til 4am to see if I got incoming, or likewise setting alarms for research etc. Has any of this changed?
This has changed slightly. I think that you still will have to be active if you want to achive a good position, but you can also achive a good position without being nightactive, as several alliances and players have proven the later rounds. Alot of the people I know (and myself) Usually get up at around 0600 my own time to send defence and attack. (Im 27 myself)

Constructions have gotten a que option, so that you can que the second construction. This means that you dont have to login that often, but ofc, in the beginning if you want to min max all bonuses constantly, being up is an advantage.

However several people have proven that its not very important. Me myself started ca tick 400 round 19 and managed to end top 50. So its still possible to do good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
The players are/were on the whole a bunch of whining kids more concerned with score than common courtesy, friendship and looking out for one another. For the majority of my PA career I was the GC of my gal, in the earlier years often an officer/minister. Typically what would happen, is that after you have set up the IRC room and worked out your cluster relations seeing who is gonna raid in cluster and who isn't some trumped up kid backed by his alliance mates will seize control typically ending in the galaxy getting pounded and the GC and his mates jumping somewhere else. Has anything been put in place to promote people getting along?
I would say yes, some might disagree with me, but the basis of the question I would have to say yes too.

In order to get along in the galaxy the PA team has introduced trusted levels. Each galaxy now has 3 levels of trust. There is the not wanted level, which gives you limited access to for example outgoing fleets, and also that you will automatically get exiled after a certain amount of ticks, you have the wanted level, which basically is the same as not wanted, cept that you wont get exiled, and then you got the trusted level, which gives you full access to forums and galoverview.

This I think forces people to co-operate more and that people will have to try and get along better. I think its getting quite okay, but yeah, the community should probably work abit more on getting the galaxy to be a place where you can feel welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
and finally...the forums were used basically as an opportunity to slag people off and give negative ratings to their profile, taking the game fights to the forums. what has been put in place to promote common courtesy on the forums and addressing the issues of the feedback system?
Sigh, what can I say about this, sadly, the forums are still a place for flaming. And yes, sometimes I have been flaming myself, I try to avoid it, but sometimes it just happens.

I would wish that the moderators of the forums were stricter on flaming, and also flamebaiting and namecalling, sadly it seems that lately the forum moderators have been putting themself on a somewhat more liberal line on this, and tbh, most of the cases they slip through.

I think that if people start making this an issue the moderators would have to take this more into consideration. I have for example started reporting alot of posts which I see as flaming or derailing of threads etc. I hope to do it more in the future, and I promise to attempt at being a better poster myself for the future. Maybe others would follow suit? Here we got a returning PA player who wants the forums to be a better place for discussions and for PA related stuff, instead of flamefests, so lets take him up on his word and start a better discussion fora.

The feedback system. ( I assume you mean the reputation system, feel free to correct me if Im wrong) There were plans to improve on this system sadly the changes stopped, and the attempts I've personally have made to try and find out why have died out because of never being able to get in touch with the person who are mainly responsible or the head honcho in charge. (Where the hell is JJ theese days?) Maybe there is time for someone else to be put in charge and finally get introduced the changes that were agreed upon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
Basically at 28, I'm finding the online community just isn't as nice as it used to be with the most common word thrown about being 'noob'. PA used to be the worst for this and so we as a clan moved onto other things. Other games are similar but PA in particular was very bad. I doubt this has changed but are the other aspects of the game good enough to put up with this?
Yes mate, this game is definitly still worth playing. Its fun, its entertaining, and you can enjoy it greatly provided you get into the community that you feel comfortable with. Alot of the mid ranked alliances are good at helping returning players back to the game, and there are many people who still put in a huge effort guiding people and also trying to make sure that people enjoy the game. If you find the right alliance who has a good community you will surely feel both welcome and feel good about playing PA again, and if you are prepared to do a little effort in the galaxy you join im sure the others that get into your galaxy are willing to do the same. If not, save up some resources and exile around till you find a place you feel a tad bit more comfortable with.

The game itself has changed alot during the last 3 rounds, and I will say that round 21 was the best round of Planetarion I have expirienced since my return to the game in r12. So cudos to the pa team for that.

So yeah, I'd definatly play next round.

Anyways, good luck and I hope to see you on the battlefield next round, and if not, well, good luck to you anyways
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 16:38   #5
Ferretus
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Re: Why should I come back?

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your honesty and views.

Sad to see the PA team has gone downhill as this was something that was happening when I left. It seems that it is a position which only the least deserving seem to get whom are often counterproductive to the game itself. Don't get me wrong I got on with some of them and many of our ex players joined the team at one stage or another.

The ship stats seem to be a concern. There is always an element of imbalance, and as I work with figures for me these are easy to spot. It amazes me though that we still can't have a balanced stat set when so many other games are capable.

I've been a top 100 player a few times, ran a top 10 alliance for several rounds which then drifted to the top 20. Some of these of course were in the days when the game was a challenge, pre R6 or whatever. So adjusting to the new game will probably be ok. It is just the players that concerns me. My last couple of rounds proved that it doesn't matter how good you are, more often than not you will be galaxy hopping for one reason or another.

Hmm I am still in 2 minds then. It is easy to say that if you get involved in the community etc all will be fine but I don't have time for that, I have a life to lead and a mortgage to pay after all. I still run ARS and we are involved with maybe 20-30 games. I guess we are perhaps one of the oldest gaming clans around now, starting back in 1995.
I could join a mid level alliance but I know I would get frustrated with the incompetence of command. R13 I made the mistake of joining ToF whom at the time had the most incompetent leadership...yet they were around rank 10ish (Luckily I was was promptly headhunted by Wolfpack as a lot of our old members went there)? If the player count is down would a similar useless alliance be ranked around 5 now? If that is the case then it is unlikely I will even get into an alliance and we all know that can be a problem without other 'race' support.
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Please bear in mind that much of what I say is intended to cause discussion. It may not reflect my personal favouritism or even have any involvement with my situation. In short bitching at me is pointless, so discuss the idea :-)

Last edited by Ferretus; 6 Jun 2007 at 16:46.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 17:59   #6
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
The community in general is a lot less active, at least to my perception.



The same, except that the lack of common courtesy applies not only to lots of players, but also to a fair number of the game team (see various threads regarding rules).



More and more rules. A lot of counterproductive things, I suppose.



The courtesy of the "feedback system" is that you can anonymously trounce and insult people. And then there's the "my epenis got hurt because of some GD'ers massive rep power".



Technically, not much. There's more micromanagement to your planet, but not so much that it'd really make an effect. The fifth race was invented by Paisley in order to bring something cool, like the icing on a cake, but it ended up becoming (for stupid reasons, like the overpowered racial abilities, salvage increases, so on) the "winner race" of the agenda. Monroe's recent stats did little to change this, actually, the polarization just escalated more and more. (and now we're stuck with these stats for god knows why and how long).

That's the negative side!
1. The game team does indeed seem extremely lacking in courtesy, but its worse. There is currently a level of disdain and ignorance, as well as outright blind doctrine floating round

2. More and more rules would be ok if applied with a sensible approach to both policing and actually bothering to document them clearly. I guess its just easy to have a huge open ended thing that means admins calling things badly.

3. The feedback is irrelevant. Far more people have left the game than the small pool left here. What that leads to is a sort of fanatical blind abusive grouping. Obviously that's not everyone.

4. Races and 'micro-management' are not really a problem for me. Having something to do when logging in keeps the boredom down, especially when you consider there is now such a small pool of players. More races have addd to the game, the balance issue is separate.

5. The game is no place for single players any longer. There is in fact zero tolerance or thought for players, now the only entity is actually alliances. I originally joined when being a player, and a gal member were more focused than alliances.

There should be a warning note on the first page of Planetarion, that if they join, not only will they be a Noob, but the game actually slide to where Noob bashing has become the underlying build of the very game itself. The game itself now only exists to help a very small band of extremely dedicated people win, at the detriment of everything else.

Should he come back, yes, because the more the merrier, and the better chance that constructive things can happen from a larger pool of people playing. Only if people like him come back and play do we have a game where playing for fun and not merely just for winning is the thing.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 01:52   #7
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
It seems that it is a position which only the least deserving seem to get...as I work with figures for me these are easy to spot... I've been a top 100 player a few times, ran a top 10 alliance for several rounds ... these of course were in the days when the game was a challenge, pre R6 or whatever... It is just the players that concerns me. My last couple of rounds proved that it doesn't matter how good you are...
I could join a mid level alliance but I know I would get frustrated with the incompetence of command... Luckily I was was promptly headhunted by Wolfpack...
Whether you play or not won't change the round, no matter how good you think you are and how shitty the rest of the players are (according to you). Your 'been there in the old days' attitude sux. I've seen new players who would no doubt kick your butt, and I've seen young alliances with dedicated players who just want to have fun, and improve round after round.
You seem so full of yourself, please come and play R22, roiding your planet will be a pleasure.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 02:17   #8
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Re: Why should I come back?

I got no such e-mail.

PA-team doesn't like me?
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 02:26   #9
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Re: Why should I come back?

Wow, admVorlon's post was pretty depressing, and it sounds like Makhil is looking for a challenge (or is ToF) .

I actually find myself agreeing more with Kargool (!!). Noob bashing has been reduced through the introduction of a "bash limit" to stop players who are too large attacking planets who are too small, combined with a score system that rewards (to varying degrees, depending on round) attacking upwards (planets higher than you). Sure, whinge about more rules stifling your enjoyment, but tbh i think both of those 'rules' are a good thing for the game - especially the more casual player.

Other 'rules' like prelaunch and construction queing means that you dont need to spend more time at crazy hours (in europe, heh) trying to get online, thus placing perhaps more emphasis on skill rather than activity than in the past. At least, you dont have to be online every 2 hours like you did in the past to do 'well', but obviously activity is still rewarded (especially right at the top of the game).

Perhaps i've just been fortunate, but your experience with idiotic galaxy members who GC then exile away perhaps isnt so frequent; when i read what you were talking about, i was a bit surprised at how old fashioned it sounded when i read it. Mind you, whilst exiling around is fairly popular, the ability of players to form a "buddy pack" which then forms the core of galaxies gives many the opportunity to start in a galaxy with some friends whilst still needing to interact with others. Sure, this occasionally results in fights between buddypacks usually resulting in one (or both) exiling away, but i think thats fairly rare.

As for hostility on the forums, i dont think its any worse than it usually is. Obviously, depending on where you frequent can determine your experience; GD is a very hostile place for the new poster, and AD has a tendency to be a more 'lively' place to discuss things. but PD, Suggestions, Strategy et al are all friendly places (more or less ) which try to improve the game or talk about prevailing issues.

As for a community; i think that some combination of people in your alliance and galaxy, plus "randoms" like old galaxy mates that still hang together and help every now and again (a desperately needed scan, an opportunity to launch on someone who has their fleet out attacking you etc) plus their company during the quiet times are all beneficial. However, to be honest, i dont think its all that time intensive either. Whilst only 21, i have three jobs and a full time uni student, but i still manage to do "ok*" at the game and manage to pop by IRC fairly often. most importantly, i still experience the rollercoaster of despair when being attacked and joy at the landing of a raid that doesnt kill my fleet .

In essense, i still have fun.

As for 'noob' calling, i'm not so sure. in Vision, i tend to be called a '*****', but i think that;s more because of the more interesting european flavour of the alliance .

*Rank hovering around the 300 mark for most of last round, untill a large portion of my fleet was killed and finished around 600 .
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 05:08   #10
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Sure, whinge about more rules stifling your enjoyment, but tbh i think both of those 'rules' are a good thing for the game - especially the more casual player.
The whinge isn't about hardcoded limits. It's about vague rules regarding activity that is within what you're able to do in the game (without being knocked by the mechanical limits), and very broadly defined as cheating in the EULA. There are quite a few threads about the subject at the moment.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 05:19   #11
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
The whinge isn't about hardcoded limits. It's about vague rules regarding activity that is within what you're able to do in the game (without being knocked by the mechanical limits), and very broadly defined as cheating in the EULA. There are quite a few threads about the subject at the moment.
I dont mind broad rules - infact having open rules is a good idea in order to encompass behaviour which is clearly unsavoury but doesnt have any specific rule prohibiting it - broad and/or vague rules are an effective measure to counter this kind of situation.

However, that issue is very different to one of enforcement - ultimately, some sort of 'common law' type of mentality that is based on precedent needs to be upheld in order to encourage consistency between decisions, whilst still being flexible enough to distinguish a case where it is necessary.

What you said earlier, though, sounded a bit like a whinge at not being able to do anything at all within in the game due to hardcoded things (like not being able to attack your galaxy) rather than issues like farming. At least, that's how i took it, but having re-read it, it can also mean EULA breaches and thus i have to stand corrected.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 10:42   #12
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Re: Why should I come back?

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Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Wow, admVorlon's post was pretty depressing, and it sounds like Makhil is looking for a challenge (or is ToF) .
Sorry :P
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 10:59   #13
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Re: Why should I come back?

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Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
Sorry :P
No worries . If that's all that's wrong with the game, then it cant be too bad, i suppose .
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 12:00   #14
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I dont mind broad rules - infact having open rules is a good idea in order to encompass behaviour which is clearly unsavoury but doesnt have any specific rule prohibiting it - broad and/or vague rules are an effective measure to counter this kind of situation.

However, that issue is very different to one of enforcement - ultimately, some sort of 'common law' type of mentality that is based on precedent needs to be upheld in order to encourage consistency between decisions, whilst still being flexible enough to distinguish a case where it is necessary.
There's nothing wrong with broad rules themselves, but if they become too cumbersome to enforce in a reasonable fashion, they shouldn't be executed at all. I doubt anyone can claim that there are lots of various factors other than the rules breach itself that heavily influence the outcome. I find this wrong. The exact allegory is letting one guy get off with theft and throwing another in jail for similar theft. The point is, if it becomes impossible to enforce a broad set of rules in a way where everyone gets treaten equally no matter if they're dumb, retarded, smell bad, or are not good friends with Assassin, there should be serious consideration on generating a rules set that is more reasonably enforceable.

By my original statements of lack of admin common courtesy I was refering to the fact that one planet gets closed for a breach while another gets away with it, solely because one of the people in question was dumber than the other. It's not like they both didn't sign the EULA and confirm that they acknowledge that sending in-game mails that suggest other players cheating is forbidden. What I'd hope to see more, is the common courtesy and the logical sense instead of this oddly rigid and complex thinking there's going on at the moment. This is where the "OMG NOOB" attitude has passed on to the administrators. An experienced player like myself would get off with such a minor breach, while an ignorant newbie may be closed very fast.

Edit: the counterproductive thing was aimed at this also: I'm not sure about the named case, but assume a new player who isn't familiar with the complex hair days of the multihunters, commits a minor rules breach. He talks to the multihunters, who act like police interrogators attempting to grill the confession from him instead of telling him what he did wrong (see: Ace - when the convict comes in, and asks what he did wrong, the first question issued by the multihunter - after the person in question got warned for abusive mail, which wasn't the case really - is "What do you think you did" instead of "See here you went wrong". The obvious follow-up is that the person breaching 18.6a might end up thinking he breached 18.4b instead; now, if the multihunter attempts to provoke him more at this state, it's understandable a careless, hasty, perhaps a new inexperienced player, might get annyoed), and issuing a punishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Automated Ace-mail
Warned:
You have been warned for potentially violating one of the Planetarion rules by Ace. The reason you were warned is: Abusive Language

Please contact a Multihunter (if possible the person who closed you, who is most familiar with the case) in #multihunters (or #support) on irc.netgamers.org or by using http://game.planetarion.com/support.pl

Include your Case-id which is 291.
and include your user-id which is 1944.

If you fail to contact a member of the MH team within a reasonable amount of time then you may be closed untill such a time as we can speak to you.

When replying via the support form, we'll try and answer you as quickly as possible.

This email is sent from an automated system and replys will not be read.
----------------------------------------------------------
If you need support, or have questions, please visit
http://game.planetarion.com/support.pl
and we will help you as soon as possible.

Planetarion is brought to you by Jolt Online Gaming Ltd. Reg. in England.
Copyright 1999-2007 Jolt Online Gaming Ltd. All rights reserved.
http://www.jolt.co.uk
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRC LOG
[22:04] <B|nTaRa> and include your user-id which is 1944.
[22:04] <+Ace> yes
[22:04] <B|nTaRa> wtf did i do ?
[22:04] <+Ace> what do you think you did ?
That's not quite what I think when I hear the words common courtesy.

How is an inexperienced person supposed to know what he has done wrong if he hasn't been swearing, tossing porn, or going on with abusive language?

If the person is stupid enough to fall to it, he gets caned, and is left with a bad feeling for sure. If he's clever (probably an older player), he'll get away with it and giggle.


I hope I have elaborated the game team's lack of common courtesy with valid case evidence and sufficient detail. And the counterproductivity of oddball rules.

Final edit (possibly): actually, it now strikes me as more amusing, as the automated mail Ace sent the guy accused of rules breach 18.4b instead of 18.6a. Is there a possibility to complain about being warned for something that obviously did not happen during the mails (abusive language), and which only happened after the rules enforcement team member acted in a provocative manner (the "wtf did I do" - "What do you think" -part?). So basically you got accused of something you didn't do, then you got provoked by a multihunter, and incidentally did what you didn't do earlier (abusive language), and after this you were told that "hey, actually, you didn't break 18.4b, you broke 18.6a - but now that you've broken 18.4b too we'll just slam you shut, donkeybrain". Gosh. This gets more and more intriguing. Maybe I should become a multihunter, I might be good at making people act so that they get themselves closed over silly barely excisting things.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 7 Jun 2007 at 12:18.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 13:02   #15
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
There's nothing wrong with broad rules themselves, but if they become too cumbersome to enforce in a reasonable fashion, they shouldn't be executed at all. I doubt anyone can claim that there are lots of various factors other than the rules breach itself that heavily influence the outcome. I find this wrong. The exact allegory is letting one guy get off with theft and throwing another in jail for similar theft. The point is, if it becomes impossible to enforce a broad set of rules in a way where everyone gets treaten equally no matter if they're dumb, retarded, smell bad, or are not good friends with Assassin, there should be serious consideration on generating a rules set that is more reasonably enforceable.

By my original statements of lack of admin common courtesy I was refering to the fact that one planet gets closed for a breach while another gets away with it, solely because one of the people in question was dumber than the other. It's not like they both didn't sign the EULA and confirm that they acknowledge that sending in-game mails that suggest other players cheating is forbidden. What I'd hope to see more, is the common courtesy and the logical sense instead of this oddly rigid and complex thinking there's going on at the moment. This is where the "OMG NOOB" attitude has passed on to the administrators. An experienced player like myself would get off with such a minor breach, while an ignorant newbie may be closed very fast.

Edit: the counterproductive thing was aimed at this also: I'm not sure about the named case, but assume a new player who isn't familiar with the complex hair days of the multihunters, commits a minor rules breach. He talks to the multihunters, who act like police interrogators attempting to grill the confession from him instead of telling him what he did wrong (see: Ace - when the convict comes in, and asks what he did wrong, the first question issued by the multihunter - after the person in question got warned for abusive mail, which wasn't the case really - is "What do you think you did" instead of "See here you went wrong". The obvious follow-up is that the person breaching 18.6a might end up thinking he breached 18.4b instead; now, if the multihunter attempts to provoke him more at this state, it's understandable a careless, hasty, perhaps a new inexperienced player, might get annyoed), and issuing a punishment.

That's not quite what I think when I hear the words common courtesy.

How is an inexperienced person supposed to know what he has done wrong if he hasn't been swearing, tossing porn, or going on with abusive language?

If the person is stupid enough to fall to it, he gets caned, and is left with a bad feeling for sure. If he's clever (probably an older player), he'll get away with it and giggle.


I hope I have elaborated the game team's lack of common courtesy with valid case evidence and sufficient detail. And the counterproductivity of oddball rules.

Final edit (possibly): actually, it now strikes me as more amusing, as the automated mail Ace sent the guy accused of rules breach 18.4b instead of 18.6a. Is there a possibility to complain about being warned for something that obviously did not happen during the mails (abusive language), and which only happened after the rules enforcement team member acted in a provocative manner (the "wtf did I do" - "What do you think" -part?). So basically you got accused of something you didn't do, then you got provoked by a multihunter, and incidentally did what you didn't do earlier (abusive language), and after this you were told that "hey, actually, you didn't break 18.4b, you broke 18.6a - but now that you've broken 18.4b too we'll just slam you shut, donkeybrain". Gosh. This gets more and more intriguing. Maybe I should become a multihunter, I might be good at making people act so that they get themselves closed over silly barely excisting things.

The multihunters have a difficult job. Its the kind of job no one will thank you for. I think also, to be fair, the PAteam have taken on board some of the comments about this case. So its not all doom n gloom.

What I will say is - and its only a personal view:-

1. MHs while able to kick people out for being abusive, should refrain from doing so in any trigger happy way. It should be a last resort recourse.
2. MHs should not goad or initiate deliberately to get a 'response'. And certainly should check 1. again to understand the issue.
3. Admin's and MultiHunters should also be made aware that goading is an act of abuse. Its just innapropriate and should not happen.
4. Players should respect and treat the PAteam and multihunters in a reasonable way. Most of this comes from people being nice to each other.

Game notes:
1. When you had 200k people, perhaps it made sense. When you have a small pool of people, 2-3k, perhaps its seriously time people again looked at revamping or rethinking punishments, rather than closures.

In Bintara's case:-
1. Bintara was guilty of intent. But intent is not specified in the rules. Well, it is, but wait until the player commits the crime.
2. Bintara was not guilty of farming. Farming by the rules is set out, and requires two parties to agree, which was clearly not the case.
3. The target planet never agreed to his request
4. The target planet was going to muller his fleet
5. If players self police - see point 4, there is in fact no reason this case should have existed. By blasting his fleet out of the sky, its self policing.

Planetarion future
If you take a small pool of people, and habitually clip it, it gets smaller in an ongoing basis. While the small pool who remain may believe the current methods are good, there is a vastly larger pool that have voted with their feet. If someone has paid money to play, they make a mistake, a MH takes the hard line with them, and goads them, then kicks them out, you won't see them again.

While it was a free game, maybe, you could close people, and so what. But in a paid game, there are elements that you have to consider. In the end MHs or game policy that is wrong means Jolt and PA suffer long term trending wise. These people are ultimately players, but also paying customers, and if you do treat them like shit, even if you believe you are right, but people outside of that don't share that view, then its rocky ground.

At the end of the day, I don't have sympathy for Bintara. But here is the thing. Bintara as far as I know has been a multi-round player. If he is like many are in game, and he has friends, if he leaves, they might leave too. It might mean alliances or groupings of players cease or drop off. These cases are not singular in nature, they have a domino effect.

The game needs a form of justice, rather than arbitrary summary justice. Criminals need to be reformed, the PAteam and MHs need to work towards a game where blatant cheating gets stopped, but players and PAteam want a community of people in the end. One that is growing, rather than shrinking. Its now too small to have cases like Bintara's happening.

I believe given the info I gathered over the past few days that in fact, the time for closures is over. Period. You can create punishments that are just as decisive, and punitive in game. Further, no case should be closed, secretive. PAteam and the MHs should make each case a public one, on forums explaining the evidence, and outlining their actions, and punishments.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 13:26   #16
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Re: Why should I come back?

I agree at large, and I think the vast majority of the people feel that the closure of Bintara was a huge exaggeration. What I think is very interesting, though, is...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
2. MHs should not goad or initiate deliberately to get a 'response'. And certainly should check 1. again to understand the issue.
3. Admin's and MultiHunters should also be made aware that goading is an act of abuse. Its just innapropriate and should not happen.
... that you cite goading as an act of abuse. Would, hence, goading go under the 18.6a which would state that an attempt to encourage a planet to break the rules is a form of cheating. Under the circumstances, I think it'd be possible to say that by first accusing Bintara of abuse (while he was not necessarily quilty of 18.4, instead he was judged quilty of intent of 18.1 and violation of 18.6a), then goading him by not answering to a direct question enquiring on what he did wrong, by asking "What do you think" Ace could be found quilty of breaching 18.6a. Reading Bintara's mails, he definately was not quilty of abusive language (unless there are abusive mails that are not in the thread), actually, he acted very politely.

Even though it's obvious he'd deserve a good spanking and a warning for a breach of 18.6a. What he didn't account for, is, a warning for breach of 18.4 as in abusive language (while the mails might be vaguely abusive, they don't seem to contain abusive language), an immediate act of goading him once he comes, obviously angry of being accused of something he didn't do (and he may have been unaware, even though signing the EULA, of the 18.6b; talking back to the goading - abuse, though, Ace himself signed EULA on 18.4 knowing abuse is against the rules), which obviously resulted in more annoyance and anxiety, which caused 18.4 violation by Bintara.

I hereby ask the Multihunters to investigate, under given evidence, the case where Ace, the multihunter, is being vaguely found quilty of abuse (breaking 18.4). Would it be possible to close him?
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 13:56   #17
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Under the circumstances, I think it'd be possible to say that by first accusing Bintara of abuse (while he was not necessarily quilty of 18.4, instead he was judged quilty of intent of 18.1 and violation of 18.6a), then goading him by not answering to a direct question enquiring on what he did wrong, by asking "What do you think" Ace could be found quilty of breaching 18.6a.
No.

No, that is sheer stupidity. "What do you think" is not inciting to break a rule, its a question asking the player what they think they did to warrant a warning. Further, its a fair question, leading up to something perhaps along the lines of what are you going to do to ensure it doesnt happen again? Regardless, this is a complete waste of time in a line of argument. Taking it to its logical conclusion and presuming that Ace himself was guilty of breaching the rules, at worst a planet in 1:1 would get closed. Not only is that silly, its studpity incarnate.

o_O

That contraction aside, to be honest mate, you're taking this far too seriously, infact my confidence in you and your argument is beginning to wane. Yes, the actions of the MHs in question leave something to be desired. Yes, more consistent application of the rules needs to be applied. That's it.

Quote:
Reading Bintara's mails, he definately was not quilty of abusive language (unless there are abusive mails that are not in the thread), actually, he acted very politely.
Didnt Phil^ say, in a more relevent thread, something about there not being a pulldown menu option for inciting others to break the rules? in that case, the next best thing would be to ping someone for sending inappropriate mail, which i suppose would only be abusive mail. Sure, the system could do with an overhaul. I dont think Phil^ is present predisposed to do so, and i dont see any other coders within PA team as available in order to do it, thus the MHs must make do with the best tools available. All that aside, you're blowing all that out of proportion.

Quote:
I hereby ask the Multihunters to investigate, under given evidence, the case where Ace, the multihunter, is being vaguely found quilty of abuse (breaking 18.4). Would it be possible to close him?
So, you want the MHs to investigate someone who is already guilty? That seems like the wrong way to go about an investigation - something you are criticising.


Seriously, just get over it.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 14:03   #18
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
I agree at large, and I think the vast majority of the people feel that the closure of Bintara was a huge exaggeration. What I think is very interesting, though, is...



... that you cite goading as an act of abuse. Would, hence, goading go under the 18.6a which would state that an attempt to encourage a planet to break the rules is a form of cheating. Under the circumstances, I think it'd be possible to say that by first accusing Bintara of abuse (while he was not necessarily quilty of 18.4, instead he was judged quilty of intent of 18.1 and violation of 18.6a), then goading him by not answering to a direct question enquiring on what he did wrong, by asking "What do you think" Ace could be found quilty of breaching 18.6a. Reading Bintara's mails, he definately was not quilty of abusive language (unless there are abusive mails that are not in the thread), actually, he acted very politely.

Even though it's obvious he'd deserve a good spanking and a warning for a breach of 18.6a. What he didn't account for, is, a warning for breach of 18.4 as in abusive language (while the mails might be vaguely abusive, they don't seem to contain abusive language), an immediate act of goading him once he comes, obviously angry of being accused of something he didn't do (and he may have been unaware, even though signing the EULA, of the 18.6b; talking back to the goading - abuse, though, Ace himself signed EULA on 18.4 knowing abuse is against the rules), which obviously resulted in more annoyance and anxiety, which caused 18.4 violation by Bintara.

I hereby ask the Multihunters to investigate, under given evidence, the case where Ace, the multihunter, is being vaguely found quilty of abuse (breaking 18.4). Would it be possible to close him?

--------------

Do you really want to get into that?
I think in this case, as I said, my feeling is that it was in fact taken on board. I don't think it actually helps to now go and string up two people. One was already too many if you like.

Primarily, I think Bintara is now understood to have sinned. This is not really ground to argue about.

Overall, I was trying to say that:-
Players should not abuse the staff.
Staff should not abuse the above. The premise of players not abusing the staff only works if the staff are behaving in a reasonable way.
Justice should be seen to be logical, and fair.

If you believe in a hard line arbitrary summary justice system, then you cannot have cases where one person gets off and another is kicked out. The world may be imperfect, and, in answer to one of the PAteams comments, PA does not have to be, nor should it be imperfect in this regard. The world is a lot more complex than PA is, and PA has no real excuse.

By the way. The Greenhills episode is a very very interesting one. If you are going to allow that activity, its shading mighty close to farming akin activity. And this is really the thing. Sometimes the line between legal and non legal comes down to a call being made one way or another, and I think its fair to say I was not alone is seeing that interesting move.
(And I will add I personally am glad to see Galaxies as a unit making a come-back)
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 19:21   #19
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Re: Why should I come back?

In fact, it was just another vain attempt to write an useless rant on how far the rules can be twisted if we go down the route that seems to have been picked. And I was a little bored at work, and GD was silent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
So, you want the MHs to investigate someone who is already guilty? That seems like the wrong way to go about an investigation - something you are criticising.
No no, I was on about investingating the multihunter for provoking a player into abusive language. I just don't think answering to a question with a question is a plausible way to handle customer service, especially if you've already given the wrong reason of breach to the player.

edit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
By the way. The Greenhills episode is a very very interesting one. If you are going to allow that activity, its shading mighty close to farming akin activity. And this is really the thing. Sometimes the line between legal and non legal comes down to a call being made one way or another, and I think its fair to say I was not alone is seeing that interesting move.
(And I will add I personally am glad to see Galaxies as a unit making a come-back)
No, I'm not. There's no contradiction there. "Greenhills episode" is "allowed" as was "1up episode" round 17.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 7 Jun 2007 at 20:00.
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 14:19   #20
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Re: Why should I come back?

Im still proud of having an account warning with four hours of the game left to go, the offending phrase used in a mail being Circlejerk
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 14:42   #21
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
Im still proud of having an account warning with four hours of the game left to go, the offending phrase used in a mail being Circlejerk
I reported all of those mails while bored in work in the hope something in them was banned. I was right \o/
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 15:16   #22
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Re: Why should I come back?

im impressed i didnt get one warning this round o/\o
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 15:18   #23
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Re: Why should I come back?

I was never closed , i simply had to exlain to Fiery that cirlcejerk was not an offensive term, but rather a comedy term. Common sense soon prevailed. Nice attempt though
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 15:26   #24
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Re: Why should I come back?

Although closure would have been delightful the knowledge that I managed to waste your time is quite sufficient!
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 16:19   #25
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Although closure would have been delightful the knowledge that I managed to waste your time is quite sufficient!

There are times when I think people 'attempting' to get people closed, without a very clear and decent reason should work the other way. Wasting 'police' time is also a crime
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 16:25   #26
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
There are times when I think people 'attempting' to get people closed, without a very clear and decent reason should work the other way. Wasting 'police' time is also a crime
I accept no limits in pursuit of good comedy.
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 18:17   #27
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
I was never closed , i simply had to exlain to Fiery that cirlcejerk was not an offensive term, but rather a comedy term. Common sense soon prevailed. Nice attempt though
pfffft
You were never going to be closed and you know it. You were told to stop sending mails telling people to abuse themselves in large groups.
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 18:53   #28
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Although closure would have been delightful the knowledge that I managed to waste your time is quite sufficient!

Its never wasted time when u get to explain to one more person what a circlejerker is. If id only kept the log of fiery's replyies i would have a much nicer sig atm.
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 22:33   #29
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Re: Why should I come back?

I have known what a circlejerk is for longer than a majority of the PA playerbase have been alive. But if you wish to share your exploits and experiences with circlejerks, go ahead...
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 22:45   #30
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Re: Why should I come back?

hmm if now greenhills didnt do anything wrong, why did pateam change the rules about the fund for r22? appoco is a pussy for not even replying to my pm's anymore
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 23:05   #31
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Re: Why should I come back?

Maybe if you were a little nicer in your pm's?
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 23:40   #32
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Re: Why should I come back?

Bloody hell, even the PA team derails threads now, can someone get this back on topic or close the thread.
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Unread 8 Jun 2007, 23:50   #33
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Re: Why should I come back?

treads get off topic then the subject is answered i guess

on topic: next round is free sign up and play and if it sucks well its nice wether outside hehe no credit lost

firey: i only get nasty then im ignored
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 02:22   #34
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Bloody hell, even the PA team derails threads now, can someone get this back on topic or close the thread.
Sorry for stepping in your territory, Kargool. Continue on...
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 02:26   #35
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Re: Why should I come back?

Ferretus,
There are speedgames starting this weekend. They are free. Why don't you sign up and form your own opinion?
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 11:44   #36
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiery
I have known what a circlejerk is for longer than a majority of the PA playerbase have been alive. But if you wish to share your exploits and experiences with circlejerks, go ahead...
The point is that the approach is a bit inconsistent. On the forums we wouldn't think twice about the use of that word. Is anyone (particularly a regular on the forums) worthy of more than just a polite heads up if they use a word in game that is perfectly acceptable on the forums, forums which by the way, are pretty work safe.
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 17:51   #37
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Re: Why should I come back?

Thanks everyone for your help, even though it did go off topic a bit :-) but nvm, that happens.

But having read through it all again I think Makhil's comment has made my mind up (repeated below for convenience)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
Whether you play or not won't change the round, no matter how good you think you are and how shitty the rest of the players are (according to you). Your 'been there in the old days' attitude sux. I've seen new players who would no doubt kick your butt, and I've seen young alliances with dedicated players who just want to have fun, and improve round after round.
You seem so full of yourself, please come and play R22, roiding your planet will be a pleasure.
In response to the comment
I have no intention of "changing the round" I was just planning on having some fun. I know what I was capable of but having not played for 7 or 8 rounds I would be starting afresh. The basics will be the same so I expect I would do ok, but as I said in my original post I have a lot more going on in my life now and don't have the time to waste on here.

All the while you have to contend with the attitude displayed by Makhil, I will likely avoid this game. This is the exact type of player I was referring about in my post, without even knowing me, Makhill is planning on destroying me before I start and of course makes idle claims and threats. Who knows what provoked that response but either way it has definately made my mind up. From what other people have said it seems PA really seems to have slid downhill. A real shame :-(
There are plenty of free web browser based games out there where you don't have this attitude, so I will continue with those.

So sadly, sorry Mr Planetarion jolt man, thanks but no thanks.
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 18:24   #38
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Re: Why should I come back?

LOL - just looked at my rep and found this comment
"good riddance, after ur antics in tof btw u were the incompetent one not the alliance "

Hilarious that someone can leave that without knowing who I am or what the situation was however many years ago it was.
I can tell you that I was one of their top 10 ToF players when I left, IRC active and regularily sent defence. The tick that I left ToF dropped 2 rankings, so clearly I was really "incompetent" lol. The command at the time had such big ego's and limited game experience that I felt it would be difficult for me to maintain my position. After a completely fumbled alliance wide retaliation strike I left and joined Wolfpack who were a great bunch. I was offered a BC position that I declined as I wanted to enjoy a stress free round as well as received defence etc when required.

If I can't even remember the full details of why I left ToF I would ask the person who felt the need to leave that feedback to enlighten me. :-)
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Please bear in mind that much of what I say is intended to cause discussion. It may not reflect my personal favouritism or even have any involvement with my situation. In short bitching at me is pointless, so discuss the idea :-)

Last edited by Ferretus; 9 Jun 2007 at 18:38.
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 19:17   #39
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Re: Why should I come back?

Question. Why do people feel the need to continue a discussion (anonymously) in rep comments? Seriously, what is the point, I'd like to know.

I expect the answer in a rep comment. An anonymous one, that is.
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 19:41   #40
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Re: Why should I come back?

to annoy you - and they've succeeded i presume
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Unread 9 Jun 2007, 19:44   #41
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Question. Why do people feel the need to continue a discussion (anonymously) in rep comments? Seriously, what is the point, I'd like to know.

I expect the answer in a rep comment. An anonymous one, that is.
and by this you only make it worse because they have to rep like 20 others before they can rep you again! ZOMG!
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 00:58   #42
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Red face Re: Why should I come back?

[quote=Mzyxptlk]Question. Why do people feel the need to continue a discussion (anonymously) in rep comments? Seriously, what is the point, I'd like to know...[quote]

Hehe, my point exactly, if you haven't got the balls to say whats on your mind on the forum, then its pretty pathetic to neg rep anonymously.

The funniest thing about all this is that my first post actually got a neg rep even though it was asking for help...no comment of course.... Lets be honest, if I haven't logged in on here for a couple of years and my post is asking whether I should bother coming back is neg repping me actually going to make a difference?..LOL gotta love it.

Good to be out I think :-)
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 01:06   #43
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Re: Why should I come back?

As much as I appreciate your airing of your own views kindly refrain from posting again that you won't be playing next round. Thanks.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 02:22   #44
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Re: Why should I come back?

Well as a game I think PA has come forward miles as with a half decent galaxy and reasonable activity (maybe even an alliance) you will be decent. You might even go places if you are a good player/planet manager. The game mechanics are far more friendlier than they used to be. The only person who can make PA a drag is you, because ultimately you dictate how much you care and how much activity you want to put in.

The rep function on this forum is rubbish, please ignore it. In my opinion it should be disabled.

As for the stats, I think a slight imbalance is good, simply because it encourages the idea of a best race and then people choosing to counter that and so on. Last rounds stats were not quite at this level with the domination of Etd, but Xan and Zik were playable. If they fix a few of the obvious flaws in the current stats, we will have a very good set of stats to play with.

To answer your question. Can planetarion be fun? Yes it can. But you need a decent galaxy as your base for that. Exiling may be necessary to find the right people who are IRC active and willing to cooperate. Planetarion used to be a massive challenge, simply because of the scale and intensity of the game. Now working smarter is a lot more important and crushing activity less so.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 08:13   #45
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
But having read through it all again I think Makhil's comment has made my mind up (repeated below for convenience)...
Frankly, it sounds like Makhils comments werent directed at you as some random player just randomly firing at another returning random player. It sounded quite harsh to me, and a bit uncharacteristic of him, but i think your reply kinda makes it obvious why he responded in that way: Makhil feels you betrayed his alliance. Your own admission of hopping alliances in the middle of a round to preserve your rank could be seen as damning evidence in this regard. No, it doesnt excuse the harshness of the 'welcome', but if you have been a pillar of an alliance's HC and then abandoned them rather than stepping up and trying to fix it and lead, should it be such a surprise that you find resentment?

Thus, by extension, this action will not be typical of most players, or indeed any players except perhaps 'old guard' ToF people. So, its probable that you'll find most of the rest of the universe (if not the forum, kinda loosing my optimism there) more welcoming.

As for rep: do with it what you will. Random reps can be frustrating, but they ultimately dont do anything. tbh, i disagree with removing the rep system as it can be a handy way of sending people a small comment not worthy of a forum PM, and contribute towards positive discussion, but yes there are problems with it.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 10:29   #46
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Re: Why should I come back?

Look, if he wants a warm fuzzy atmosphere he can go play mylittlepony.net or some other such faggotry. PA is a war game in which conflicts and disputes often spill over into the forums. This is both understandable and fun, so toughen up bitch.

That said the point that himself and mz made about anon rep is valid. It's lame and people should be very very embarrassed if they don't have the 'courage'* to stand by the comments they make on the internet. In all fairness, it's rather sad behaviour.

*'courage' is not a great word here. What I mean to express is that people who are afraid to stand by their opinion because they fear a loss in (perceived) popularity are fairly pathethic human beings.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 10:38   #47
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Re: Why should I come back?

Lets imagine for a moment that someone from jolt is reading this thread (or indeed someone else thinking of buying PA).

Why would anyone invest in the game after reading this?

We have done our best to make use of free marketting tools e.g. portal, mpogd and email. When people do come around and have a look, they are treated with hostility and generally a level of behaviour that makes me want to quit. Yes sometimes the people who want to return to the game may not be wanted, but there are nice, or at least vaguely polite ways to say things that won't result in them telling everyone they know not to bother giving PA a try.

Reading this thread has made me very disappointed in the community (bar a few people who have made what I would call good posts.)
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 11:02   #48
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Lets imagine for a moment that someone from jolt is reading this thread (or indeed someone else thinking of buying PA).

Why would anyone invest in the game after reading this?
Let's imagine someone is thinking of buying a brewery. They go out on the town and see some people drunk off their face beating eachother senseless.

Why would anyone invest in beer after seeing that?
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 11:15   #49
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Let's imagine someone is thinking of buying a brewery. They go out on the town and see some people drunk off their face beating eachother senseless.

Why would anyone invest in beer after seeing that?
There are clearly factors beyond the user community that form part of an investment decision. However, one of the things that is meant to be good about Planetarion is the community and what goes on beyond the game itself. If people are treated with hostitlity that won't want to be part of the community and hence won't want to play.

Now I am not trying to blame the community for the downfall in PA, I am merely stating that this thread does not serve as a good advert for the game.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 11:18   #50
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Re: Why should I come back?

Yeah, because as paying customers, it's our responsibility to advertize for the game. Get bent.
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