Streamline Tech Tree

[Marka]

As the round is progressing and I am playing as scanner again it has become obvious the tech tree especially in the Wave branch is too full.

Traveltime: 168 ticks
Infrastructure: 168 ticks
Hulls: 144 ticks
Waves: 286 ticks
Core Mining: 144 ticks
CovOps: 196 ticks
HCT: 1052 ticks
Overall: 2158 ticks

I know this is calced without bonus - but especially for a Xan that gets a bit over the top.

A view on the Wave branch...
With the Xan cloaking it is getting crucial to go to mil-scans fast. Yet there are always Terrans and Ziks that focus on getting a whole load of distorters.
So basically every alliance needs 2 kinds of scanners - one for getting to mil-scan quickly and one that goes down the amp way to be able to scan those distorter heavy ppl later in the round.
Smaller and less organized alliances gonna have problems finding enough dedicated people for scanning especially both types of scanners.
A quick calc for a terran-147-amp-scanner shows that you need realistically 2 Hulls, 3 Infrastructure, 7 Waves and 2 HCT before you are able to actually start roiding for yourself (with eta13...) which evens out in 488 ticks - with engineering research on 2nd that's still around 440 ticks - that's a lot of dedicaton needed tbh.

To bring it to a point. The system as is with mil-scans makes it for anyone except scanners and solo-players obsolete to research scans at all. I think the Fleet Analysis should be scrapped - it has no use except making the tree for above groups longer as it's purpose is fully replaced by Military Scans. Adjust the ETAs for JGP and MS accordingly. Allies that can't afford to have more than 2 or 3 fulltime scanners will get stuck in either having no jgp and mil-scans until a third of the round is over and Xans butchered them or not be able to scan anyone with more than 100 dist later in the round.

Also 16 HCT seems way off. It gets extremely boring and is a useless stretching of research capacities. The real limit to your roids is your alliance/gal anyway. 10 should be more than enough - with the short round we have noone should need more than 700-800 ticks to walk through it. Right now a Xan that doesn't want to set engineering on res and no res centers gonna need 1200 ticks to get those (stupid example - yet nasty).

The rounds are getting shorter (have settled on short level) yet the tech tree is getting bigger which makes it necessary to be more specialized than it's good for the small memberbase.
To even the battlefield for smaller alliance limits (hopefully next round) it should be possible for everyone to have most of necessary researches (all Travel, Hulls, Waves, Core Mining - most Infrastructure, HCT) done by tick1000 (900 Cath, 1100 Xan).


My suggestions for that to happen:
1. Kick FA and half the HCT
2. Make researches faster overall so the "real round" starts earlier and new players that join mid-round can have some more fun.

Against the specialist and for multi-purpose players!!!!

Regards
Marka

[Lοki]

Although you'll find few people with research not on first or second priority, I think you're right. Being a hardcore scanner basically screws your round. The fun really begins when all the important research is done and the odds are even
I'm not sure if removing the FA scan will help, but shortening research times certainly will.

Maybe it would be a good idea to just 'award' the waves research after a set amount of ticks, to everyone, so that scanners only have to focus on amps and still have a good time. (Scanning shouldn't be harder than disting imo, but that aside.) Also, not every solo playing guy would have to research all the scans himself. This is quite a major change though, I'm not sure if it will appeal to many non-scanners.

[Cochese]

You have to consider the power of information though. Scans are information, and information is power.

Therefore, it should take a long time to get up the scan tree, imo.

(Yes, I'm playing a 'hardcore scan planet' this round too)

[Marka]

Originally Posted by Cochese

You have to consider the power of information though. Scans are information, and information is power.

Therefore, it should take a long time to get up the scan tree, imo.

(Yes, I'm playing a 'hardcore scan planet' this round too)

I agree - but traveltime and cr/bs hulls also means power - yet for my selected profession I have to put in twice the amount of time :P

[Cochese]

That's the beauty of being a Xan scanner...you can get your kicks in with minimal Hull tech, allowing to more quickly work on scans.

[bwtmc]

Some people actually like to focus on scanning and nothing else, I think they'd probably enjoy the game less if that became meaningless (Hi Berk!).

The whole point of specialisation is to make the game SLIGHTLY more strategy based than it otherwise would be. Will giving players even less room to be 'cleverly' competitive be a good move? I doubt it.

Perhaps structure killers should be thought over if distorters are such a damning problem to players wanting the best of both worlds (recurring scanner/planet incompatibility problem). Since in practice, no one actually uses them (more than once) as anything but a joke. I remember both Angels and SubH mentioning them to members at different times in preparation for battles, I don't remember ever seeing any.

They're completely pointless and if they weren't, you probably wouldn't have the above dilemma.

[K-W]

There is no such thing as the 'real round'. By that logic we shouldnt have any research at all. The whole point of the research system is that things change as the round progresses. Now an argument can certainly be made that the game should be the game and research is just annoying, but PA has always had a tech system designed so that things progress during a round.

As far as the scan system specifically, as long as we have a scan system that encourages dedicated scan planets, I think the scan techs have to be long, or else scanners will just have all the scans in a jiffy (unless we were to ditch the idea of research progression during the round).

That said I absolutely hate the scan/amp/dist system and would much rather have a system that encourages regular players to do thier own scans and being a scanner would just mean that some players prioritizing scan research while doing other researches without devoting thier planets entirely towards scans, in which case I would agree with you that scan research might need balancing.

But unfortunately PA has moved in the opposite direction and doesnt seem likely to change so thats a bit of a moot point.

[Marka]

To bwtmc
Ofc there are always some people that are specializing on scanning. I have been scanner for more than 10 rounds. Yet while I have been able to be scanner and top defender 6 or 7 rounds ago that is impossible nowadays.
The current scan system has no strategy at all. Either you have 4-5 people that are willing to sacrifice the first third of their round - or you don't.
And you are not really suggesting to a scanner to make structure killers more powerful???
The whole purpose it'll have that a top-alliance that gets bored will start destroying scanners of smaller alliances. They serve absolutely no purpose and can really destroy someones round (if you destroy 30 amps of a scanner in one wave that means at least 120 ticks and 12M res each destroyed). They should be removed at all.

To K-W
The current tech system does progress throughout the round - yet in reality if you want to finish in a top rank you have to follow the same branches (no top100 player would ever research covop (unless very bored cat)). And from this round on they don't even need Fleet Analysis anymore - so no top100 player will research any scans.
For a value/roid-oriented player all he has to do from tick 400-500 on is dump out more HCT - not really progressive. Scanners reach this point considerably (200-300 ticks) later. From this point on they are strategically limited to free use of 2 fleets only as they might always need to do a jgp for others (another thing that should be scrapped).
Concluding the theoretically broad variety of Research is in reality limited as you will only succeed by following given paths.

[Monroe]

Personally I am in favor of making the total scan tree impossible to finish by the end of the round even as a cath reasearch priority 1. I like the idea of having to make compromises on what you research. So I don't see a long wave tech tree as a problem.

[K-W]

Originally Posted by Marka

To K-W
The current tech system does progress throughout the round - yet in reality if you want to finish in a top rank you have to follow the same branches (no top100 player would ever research covop (unless very bored cat)). And from this round on they don't even need Fleet Analysis anymore - so no top100 player will research any scans.

For a value/roid-oriented player all he has to do from tick 400-500 on is dump out more HCT - not really progressive. Scanners reach this point considerably (200-300 ticks) later. From this point on they are strategically limited to free use of 2 fleets only as they might always need to do a jgp for others (another thing that should be scrapped).
Concluding the theoretically broad variety of Research is in reality limited as you will only succeed by following given paths.

But this has little to do with scan research times. The game is designed so that scanners will be scanners, players will be players, etc. Engineering, construction, research. In all cases taking one route makes the other routes more difficult. They are alternative playing styles, it is not designed so that you can integrate them all into one planet and do well. Even alliances are setup to encourage dedicated scan planets.

If you want the system changed, the way both scans and cov-ops work has to be totally overhauled. Shortning the scan research times would do nothing but give scanners scans earlier, throwing off the built in progression.

[Marka]

Originally Posted by K-W

But this has little to do with scan research times. The game is designed so that scanners will be scanners, players will be players, etc. Engineering, construction, research. In all cases taking one route makes the other routes more difficult. They are alternative playing styles, it is not designed so that you can integrate them all into one planet and do well. Even alliances are setup to encourage dedicated scan planets.

If you want the system changed, the way both scans and cov-ops work has to be totally overhauled. Shortning the scan research times would do nothing but give scanners scans earlier, throwing off the built in progression.

I disagree that the game is supposed to be that way. Afterall it's a game about going to war with your planet.
Scanning is just something that makes attacking for you easier as you get extended information - just like Covert Ops mean that you can hamper your enemy without launching - yet it is extremely inefficient.
Both are additions to the game but the only way of winning is attacking. You won't ever get a price for being the best CovOpper, doing most scans or have most amps.
Alliances had to rely on scanners all the time I admit - but the introduction of Xan cloaking and mil-scans to PaX have made the system extremely unbalanced:
Noone without dedicated alliance scanner will know what Xans are up to until very late in the game.
Every scanner has to put in 3 extra days of research.
Scanners can't stop/break after JGP but have to go all the way to Mil Scans.
Noone besides scanners and freelancers ever gonna have to touch the Wave tree again.

Most people did research Fleet Analysis and had one amp at least - now there is no point for that.
That means that scanners have appx 1 week of research more to do than everyone else and people without alliance or access to scanners get wtfpwnd by Xans.
I don't mind the introduction of new features to the game - I even think that the Xan cloaking and Mil Scan are a good idea. Yet if any change gives one group (players as you call it) a very huge advantage and another (scanners) gets the piss of it I am getting annoyed (especially being a part of that group :P ).

[K-W]

Originally Posted by Marka

I disagree that the game is supposed to be that way. Afterall it's a game about going to war with your planet.

Im not talking about what you thinkthe game is supposed to be. Im talking about the way the game is actually designed. I totally understand that you disagree with that design, im just explaining that streamlining the tech tree wont accomplish what you want since research isnt the only aspect of the game thats designed around having specialized planets.

Scanning is just something that makes attacking for you easier as you get extended information - just like Covert Ops mean that you can hamper your enemy without launching - yet it is extremely inefficient.
Both are additions to the game but the only way of winning is attacking. You won't ever get a price for being the best CovOpper, doing most scans or have most amps.

Right, they are not designed to be ways to win the game, or things that planets who want to win the game will do with any proficiency. They are designed as alternate ways to play mainly to support others.

Noone besides scanners and freelancers ever gonna have to touch the Wave tree again.Most people did research Fleet Analysis and had one amp at least - now there is no point for that.

What are you talking about? Xan is the only race that cloaks. People will still want fleet scans to see whats in fleets that come from non-xans. People will still want to be able to do unit/planet/jpg/mil scans themselves like always. And like always scans will come after fleet/resource skills for people with access to scan planets. The waves tree will get the exact same number of touches.

That means that scanners have appx 1 week of research more to do than everyone else and people without alliance or access to scanners get wtfpwnd by Xans.
I don't mind the introduction of new features to the game - I even think that the Xan cloaking and Mil Scan are a good idea. Yet if any change gives one group (players as you call it) a very huge advantage and another (scanners) gets the piss of it I am getting annoyed (especially being a part of that group :P ).

Your not giving an advantage to scanners, as you explained they dont compete for ranks based on scanning. It does in fact increase specialization, which im explaining is something thats intended by the designers of the game. The scan system is built around scan planets has been for a while.

I also dont like this, but changing it will require alot more than just tinkering with the research.

[Marka]

Originally Posted by K-W

What are you talking about? Xan is the only race that cloaks. People will still want fleet scans to see whats in fleets that come from non-xans. People will still want to be able to do unit/planet/jpg/mil scans themselves like always. And like always scans will come after fleet/resource skills for people with access to scan planets. The waves tree will get the exact same number of touches.

If they want to know what is coming in the attacking fleet they can just ask a scanner now. No point in researching them. After the implementation of the alliance fund with paid scans last round the number of scan requests has already drastically increased as others have the feeling they already paid for the scans.

Originally Posted by K-W

Your not giving an advantage to scanners, as you explained they dont compete for ranks based on scanning. It does in fact increase specialization, which im explaining is something thats intended by the designers of the game. The scan system is built around scan planets has been for a while.

I also dont like this, but changing it will require alot more than just tinkering with the research.

If the system is supposed to be based around scan planets than they should make playing as scan planet more enjoyable. This can easily happen with a little tech tree tinkering. Just remove Unit or FA as their use is 0 as soon as mil-scans are out and remove the stupid restriction that you can only do JGP on planets your fleets are heading at.

Advantages:
Scanners can use 3 fleets all the time.
Smaller alliances have some more firepower and earlier couter vs. xan
More people can do scans as secondary way

Disadvantages:
Highly organized alliances gonna loose in their early round advantage
Probably more distorter building
Xan cloaking not as effective after a while

This list is just what I could think of in 2 mins - so ofc not really complete. Yet I think advantages outweigh disadvantages and a little tinkering at least on the wave tree should be considered.

[bwtmc]

Originally Posted by Marka

To bwtmc
Ofc there are always some people that are specializing on scanning. I have been scanner for more than 10 rounds. Yet while I have been able to be scanner and top defender 6 or 7 rounds ago that is impossible nowadays.
The current scan system has no strategy at all. Either you have 4-5 people that are willing to sacrifice the first third of their round - or you don't.
And you are not really suggesting to a scanner to make structure killers more powerful???
The whole purpose it'll have that a top-alliance that gets bored will start destroying scanners of smaller alliances. They serve absolutely no purpose and can really destroy someones round (if you destroy 30 amps of a scanner in one wave that means at least 120 ticks and 12M res each destroyed). They should be removed at all.

There's two different issues, the research tree and amps. Building amps like mad makes it harder to have a decent fleet and so does rushing for those technologies.

It's still possible to scan and have a decent fleet in eight weeks. I'm sure if players can get 140 distorters and finish top ten or so, then they can finish t200 in value and get 140 amps. I'm guessing that t200 value would be about what you had in mind, though top 50's surely possible too. As for SKs, my point is that scanners wouldn't then have to be so specialised if they actually had a place in the game.

Okay, rushing for jumpgate scans is a pain, but it doesn't actually take that long and it does benefit the scanner (so they can always J atts and defences / not losing ships unnecessarily ever etc). Isn't it like <pt100 with cathaar?

In reality, why should any alliance not aiming to win "need" such a scanner. I would've thought galaxy raids / other attacks could be comfortably ran all round with 40 amps - which for the vast majority of players is all that matters.