Monologue: On America

[Archi]

I am an American, I will make no apologies about this, I am what I am. In the interests of understanding I will attempt to give the PA community my views on America as an American sees it. So if you want a true piece of the American psyche read on. Some stuff you may agree with some you may not, but I will try to be as honest as possible.

America has always been loathed by Europe. The only reason we got our independence was because France hated the English more than us. Until the advent of WW2 we were always those yokels across the pond (some still see us this way). Teddy Roosevelt once said that the world will never like us, they may need us, or fear us, but America will always be alone.

We have gotten the poor and outcasts from most of your societies. We are an amalgamation of your cultures. One that has been blended and mixed until it made a society of it's own. I myself am a product of this. :-) Thank you for your contributions to our gene pool.

We have had a dark and evil past, but also a glorious and spectacular past. The slavery that America started with was and still is being paid by the horrific civil war our country had on through to Selma in the 60's. The country that saw the slaughter of the buffalo also invented the light bulb. The country that had Jim Crow laws also invented manned powered flight.

The native Americans are probably one of our most tragic chapters. Through diesease inadvertantly brought to the new world from Europe and the "manifest destiny" of westward expansion. A name for rounding up the Indians and putting them in camps, then taking their land. It is and evil chapter, however remember before you are quick to judge. Those people settling there were your ancestors too, fleeing their countries from the bitter financial and social yokes that were forced on them. Not just from Europe either, they came from all over the world. Of their own volition (except for the Africans).

America is a two-edged sword, Teddy Roosevelt, stole Panama from the Columbians and built a canal on it. He also won a Nobel prize for mediating the Russo-Japanese war. Nixon is another prime example, though ruthless and cold to a fault. He got us out of Viet Nam and opened normal relations with the People's Republic of China. Yet today he is regarded as the arch-villain of America.

There is one thing though about America that I think is totally unique in the world. That the rest of the world will never understand. We think nothing is impossible. It is our greatest strength and our greatest weakness. It got us to the moon, but it also got us into Viet Nam. It won us the Cold War, but it made us try to be the worlds policeman. It can make us seem to be arrogant at times (though you can ask my alliance mates I am the least arrogant person in there) we try not to be. It does make us a proud people though, proud of our "underdog" heritage, proud of our accomplishments and world status. Though like any people we make mistakes. I think ours are just bigger because of the global scale it involves.

I am sorry this is the case.

Let the flaming commence.

[Monkeypimp]

Originally posted by Archi
invented manned powered flight.

debateable.


only with certain New Zealanders who believe the story that farmer from down south..

[bobble]

Originally posted by Archi
I am an American, I will make no apologies about this, I am what I am. In the interests of understanding I will attempt to give the PA community my views on America as an American sees it. So if you want a true piece of the American psyche read on. Some stuff you may agree with some you may not, but I will try to be as honest as possible.

America has always been loathed by Europe. The only reason we got our independence was because France hated the English more than us. Until the advent of WW2 we were always those yokels across the pond (some still see us this way). Teddy Roosevelt once said that the world will never like us, they may need us, or fear us, but America will always be alone.

We have gotten the poor and outcasts from most of your societies. We are an amalgamation of your cultures. One that has been blended and mixed until it made a society of it's own. I myself am a product of this. :-) Thank you for your contributions to our gene pool.

We have had a dark and evil past, but also a glorious and spectacular past. The slavery that America started with was and still is being paid by the horrific civil war our country had on through to Selma in the 60's. The country that saw the slaughter of the buffalo also invented the light bulb. The country that had Jim Crow laws also invented manned powered flight.

The native Americans are probably one of our most tragic chapters. Through diesease inadvertantly brought to the new world from Europe and the "manifest destiny" of westward expansion. A name for rounding up the Indians and putting them in camps, then taking their land. It is and evil chapter, however remember before you are quick to judge. Those people settling there were your ancestors too, fleeing their countries from the bitter financial and social yokes that were forced on them. Not just from Europe either, they came from all over the world. Of their own volition (except for the Africans).

America is a two-edged sword, Teddy Roosevelt, stole Panama from the Columbians and built a canal on it. He also won a Nobel prize for mediating the Russo-Japanese war. Nixon is another prime example, though ruthless and cold to a fault. He got us out of Viet Nam and opened normal relations with the People's Republic of China. Yet today he is regarded as the arch-villain of America.

There is one thing though about America that I think is totally unique in the world. That the rest of the world will never understand. We think nothing is impossible. It is our greatest strength and our greatest weakness. It got us to the moon, but it also got us into Viet Nam. It won us the Cold War, but it made us try to be the worlds policeman. It can make us seem to be arrogant at times (though you can ask my alliance mates I am the least arrogant person in there) we try not to be. It does make us a proud people though, proud of our "underdog" heritage, proud of our accomplishments and world status. Though like any people we make mistakes. I think ours are just bigger because of the global scale it involves.

I am sorry this is the case.

Let the flaming commence.

in two posts i gained more respect for you than almost anyone else on this board. my frustration tends to get the best of me, i admit that. well spoken.

[Archi]

in two posts i gained more respect for you than almost anyone else on this board. my frustration tends to get the best of me, i admit that. well spoken.

Why Thank you :smiley1:

[Nodrog]

America as a nation needs to grow up as a country and realise certain basic truths, because the continual refusal of the majority of the population to grasp them is the primary reason why it is falling apart at the seams. The main problems that most Americans seem to have are 1) An irrational respect for history and that which happened before they were born, and the worship of arbitrary symbols and emotional values over meaningful ideals. Abstractions such as "eagles", "good ol uncle sam", and "The Constitution" are entirely devoid of meaning when you refuse to consider what it actually is that they are abstractions for. Continually thinking at too high a level can often obscure your view of the fundamental concepts below them. The fact that you can recite Artlce 323 Section 42b of the Constitution backswards while standing on your head is irrelevant if you dont understand the meaning that lies behind what you are saying. 2) A feeling of pride in the achievements of others, rather than a genuine sense of achievement derived from their own accomplishments. The fact that you live in a bit of land where other people have "done good things" does not add any value or meaning to your life, although obviously witnessing the actualization of your own personal values is going to bring you some form of happyness, regardless of who is involved. Supplementation is good, substitution is not. 3) The inability to grasp 'freedom' as being both objective, intransient and analogue, rather than subjective, binary and interpretational. Just because you are 'more free' than europeans/communists/whatever does not mean that you have freedom. There is no value in being "the best of a bad bunch", and all you are doing is falsely rationalising to avoid facing up to your national deficiencies. Lying to yourself about your country does not help anyone (except your government). 4) eating too much food lol.

[Scoot951]

I was going to make a long pointless thread about how, uh, pointless this is, no one here has any control over how their country acts (except very abstractly), and certainly no control over their nation's history and attitude, making any attempt to explain/apoligize for such here a waste of breath.



Instead, I'm going to try some holiday smilies

:xmas: :frosty: :smiley1: :santa_wav :reindeer: :deer:

[acropolis]

Originally posted by Nodrog
4) eating too much food lol.

TBH I don't mind criticism, as long as it is combined with valid options that would solve the problems that are pointed out. You give nothing of the sort. How exactly do you expect Americans to get 'morbidly obese' without eating too much? Reverse liposuction? And what should we do while sitting on the couch watching 'bacherlorettes in alaska'? Hmm Mr. Knowitall?

Originally posted by Nodrog
America as a nation needs to grow up as a country and realise certain basic truths, because the continual refusal of the majority of the population to grasp them is the primary reason why it is falling apart at the seams. The main problems that most Americans seem to have are 1) An irrational respect for history and that which happened before they were born, and the worship of arbitrary symbols and emotional values over meaningful ideals. Abstractions such as "eagles", "good ol uncle sam", and "The Constitution" are entirely devoid of meaning when you refuse to consider what it actually is that they are abstractions for. Continually thinking at too high a level can often obscure your view of the fundamental concepts below them. The fact that you can recite Artlce 323 Section 42b of the Constitution backswards while standing on your head is irrelevant if you dont understand the meaning that lies behind what you are saying. 2) A feeling of pride in the achievements of others, rather than a genuine sense of achievement derived from their own accomplishments. The fact that you live in a bit of land where other people have "done good things" does not add any value or meaning to your life, although obviously witnessing the actualization of your own personal values is going to bring you some form of happyness, regardless of who is involved. Supplementation is good, substitution is not. 3) The inability to grasp 'freedom' as being both objective, intransient and analogue, rather than subjective, binary and interpretational. Just because you are 'more free' than europeans/communists/whatever does not mean that you have freedom. There is no value in being "the best of a bad bunch", and all you are doing is falsely rationalising to avoid facing up to your national deficiencies. Lying to yourself about your country does not help anyone (except your government). 4) eating too much food lol.

And your country doesn't have problems..I find that hard to believe. also YOUR BIT CHUNKY YOURSELF NOD, where I'm not over weight or chunky I'm a crisp 155 pounds

[queball]

Hey guys what do you think of this article??

its by Ben Stein, ffs he had jimmy Kimmel as a co-host you can't trust his work

[Archi]

/me chuckles, he was also a speech writer for Nixon, so how bad could he be :reindeer:

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Archi
It got us to the moon, but it also got us into Viet Nam. It won us the Cold War, but it made us try to be the worlds policeman.

Putting it that way makes it sound like "you" accidently blundered into Vietnam not quite aware of what was going on. Your leaders purposefully attacked a third-world country in the belief they could stop Communist gaining power. Which is fair enough - it's happened elsewhere in El Salvador, Grenada, etc. But trying to make it sound like it was all a big blunder done by accident is a little naive.

And Nixon is demonised probably because he's an easy target (lo Futurama). And the media is by and large more "liberal" (in some senses) than the rest of the US.

As for the Ben Stein article : genius. Attack corporations, + greed while at the same time attacking labour unions and defending big tobacco. Still, the general drift of "blame the lawyers" is something to be applauded I guess.

[Bloomers III]

the USA brought us delicious salted snacks. long live USA

[Structural Integrity]

I do not look upon America as "a great country", I see it as yet another country. And I'm CERTAINLY not going to see Americans as "great people" who invent the greatest things or have been about everywhere. This could be dismissed as geographical coincidence.

America harbors just as many fools as any other country in the world and just as many intellectual people. So, instead of having a prejudiced opinion of Americans (whether positive or negative) I'm going to treat you, individually, the same as I would treat a random Dutch, French, African or Iraqi person I'd meet for the first time.

And now I've made that clear, I can honestly say that you seem like a person who sees America as the greatest country of the world, with the greatest people, and the of the world rest is less as they didn't "invent the lightbulb" or "man powered flight".

[Archi]

Actually the way the Viet Nam war was run it was a blunder. A blunder by the politicians who tried to fight a half-arsed war. I could go on about French Colonialism, Ho Chi Minh's approaches to FDR, taking legitimate targets off of the bombing lists for political purposes and on and on, one blunder after another. Indeed Viet Nam was a tragedy of American policy and it was reflected at home. Not since our civil war has more Americans pitted themselves against other Americans.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Archi
Indeed Viet Nam was a tragedy of American policy and it was reflected at home. Not since our civil war has more Americans pitted themselves against other Americans.

I think it's a slightly bigger tragedy for the million+ Vietnamese who died, not to mention the 6 million odd tonnes of bombs dropped on their country. Maybe.

[Archi]

And now I've made that clear, I can honestly say that you seem like a person who sees America as the greatest country of the world, with the greatest people, and the of the world rest is less as they didn't "invent the lightbulb" or "man powered flight".

I am sorry you feel that way, I am not trying to belittle anyone (really I'm not), I am just trying to explain the attitude of the U.S. and the reasons some folks act the way they do.

[Archi]

I think it's a slightly bigger tragedy for the million+ Vietnamese who died, not to mention the 6 million odd tonnes of bombs dropped on their country. Maybe.

Well, considering they were a French colony before that. Then under Japanese occupation only to have the French try to greedily hold onto their colony. After that the Americans came along and tried to hold it to stop the spread of communism to the rest of Southeast Asia. When they left the Russians occupied it and everyone was happy? I dont think so. The Russians were quoted as being Americans without money. Then they got thrust into a war with Chinese backed Cambodia. It is no wonder that the Vietnamese people bent over backwards to reestablish normal relations with the U.S. Viet Nam does indeed have a tragic 20th century history, but it is not all the U.S. doing. If I remember correctly American, French, British, Australian, Japanese, Russian, Chinese, and German (for the French Foreign Legion) troops all fought there throughout the 20th century. Our presence was the heaviest though and I know the sins of my nation.

[Deffeh]

a fairly good thread.

Well, for another america thread anyway

I do not hate americans, american culture, american people, or businesses. I merely hate american arrogance. I do not know why it is so strong in americans, and i d not knw why its so mind bendingly annoying in americans. Some times, some times, you have to hold your hands up and say, ok, i was wrong, we were wrong. America is incapable of doing this. For **** sake, whats wrong with a bit of common understanding? I do not think as a "european" and i very much resent Americans referring to "european" opinion. We are all countries in our own right. Isnt that what your trying to say about America? Keep to the same standard, please.

BTW

i laughed so ****ing hard, nodrog posting a great rely, well thought out, argued, and backed up. He adds a little joke in at the end, and thats all you can pick up on.

He must be s******ing into his cornflakes as we speak.

[Monkeypimp]

the problem was the Americans learnt NOTHING from the French war in Vietnam (ie the first Indo-china conflict) from 1946-1954 the french fought against the Viet Minh and end up losing after getting the absolute **** smacked out of them at Dien Bien Phu. The French fought for 8 years and lost to an army which mostly consisted of poor people who were fighting for what they saw as thier freedom from colonialistic rule. They wanted Ho Chi Minh as the leader of a united Vietnam, and fought thier asses off for it and won.

After all that, the americans still went into a war thinking they would be in and out in a snap.

The other thing was after the first Indo-China conflict (and before the second, IE the US in Vietnam), several countries got together to try and sort out a future for Vietnam. It was decided that all of Vietnam should vote to decide whether they wanted to be united under Ho Chi Minh or not. The US realised quickly that around

80% of the population would vote yes, and Vietnam would become a fully communist country. Not wanting this to happen, they used thier power to stop the vote happening and instead put in a puppet emperor, and put people they thought were suspectible to communism in 'villages' surrounded by wire fencing. All this did was cause them to hate the Americans more, and communism became much more appealing, as the american influence on thier country had made them poorer as the rich got richer. This was the start of the Viet Cong (communists in South Vietnam) and all of a suddon when the Americans came along, they not only had the uniformed Viet Minh to fight against, but they also had the un-uniformed Viet Cong who could have been ANYBODY they saw.

That and tunnels, booby traps and the ho chi minh trail (which went through Laos and supplied the Viet Cong with weapons, and allowed the Viet Minh to come as they liked into South Vietnam, its no wonder the Americans lost, or at least 'withdrew after they realised it was unwinnable'



**** thats the longest post I've ever made :/

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Archi
I am sorry you feel that way, I am not trying to belittle anyone (really I'm not), I am just trying to explain the attitude of the U.S. and the reasons some folks act the way they do.

A well written post in many ways but I think you're utterly off base on the reasons people don't like America much these days.

There is one thing though about America that I think is totally unique in the world. That the rest of the world will never understand. We think nothing is impossible.

That annoys 'us' because it makes 'you' arrogant. America (as a whole, not as individuals) seems to have the impression it's bulletproof and no-one can touch you. The reaction to 11 Sep 2001 proved that, people were so shocked that something like this could happen to the US and you weren't in fact invulnerable after all. Unfortunately it still hasn't opened people's eyes to the fact that military might just doesn't matter any more, the advent of non-conventional weapons (NBC) saw to that. The CIA lists over 130 terrorist organisations as capable of NBC attacks (there is still no proof of whether Aum Shinrikyo actually tested an atomic bomb in the Australian outback or it if was a meteorite) and, as Al Queda demonstrated, with proper planning the odds of success are high. When you move on to the countries capable of destroying the entire American infrastructure overnight the list gets smaller but the price rises, make no mistake it could be done. Your military power is no different from that of many other countries when you start to look at the non-conventional alternatives.

America sees itself as the world's policeman, well we actually have no problem with that in itself. It's just that we see you as the bent copper who thinks justice is negotiable. Look at Israel, you (and we, following your lead I'm ashamed to say) have screwed up beyond belief there. Look at Saddam Hussein, why is he still alive? Because Bush senior decided it that way to gain a few votes. If you want to police the world the your foreign policy can't be influenced by your domestic issues, you must be white as snow and unfortunately you don't even make it to slushy brown. An America we could all look to and go 'Wow, they really are the champions of truth and justics' would indeed be the greatest country in the world and deservedly so. As it is we see you as self serving and corrupt and this annoys us more than a little when we hear the sanctimonious preachings of your government.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Monkeypimp
That and tunnels, booby traps and the ho chi minh trail (which went through Laos and supplied the Viet Cong with weapons, and allowed the Viet Minh to come as they liked into South Vietnam, its no wonder the Americans lost, or at least 'withdrew after they realised it was unwinnable'

I'm half-inclined to follow what Noam Chomsky says about Vietnam; that the Americans won (or at least didn't lose) the conflict. Vietnam could have a been major turning point in independent (or "Communist" if you prefer) development in the region but America beat the living crap out of both South and North Vietnam. North Vietnam had pretty horrendous bombing, but I think the South got the worst of it as the North at least had their own state which had a semblance of support from Moscow.

Either way, after the bombing proper independent development was unthinkable - the amount of damage (done to infrastructure, agriculture, let alone the population) to Vietnam is practically incalculable.

However, I'd tend to agree with part of the traditional analysis. The Americans (or at least, their elite) "lost" in two senses. One, they didn't count on the scale of domestic protest which had the potential to get out of hand, and two they didn't perhaps count on the sheer fanaticsm of the indigenous population they were fighting.

Again, to quote Chomsky the parallels with Soviet-Afghanistan are interesting. The Afghan "freedom fighters" were definitely American supported and weren't entirely indigenous (lo Osama Bin Laden) - to a far greater extent than the NLF in Vietnam. But we see the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan as an invasion but the American intervention in Vietnam we see as an attempt to do good (albeit bungling).

[Monkeypimp]

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

[LHC]

Originally posted by Monkeypimp
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

and two men's tosser

[Ärketrollmannen]

dante, most europeans doesn't really see the US intervention in vietnam as an attemt to do good. I mean, how can you see it as that? It was a Chile, but with more americans.

And NOONE can see Chile as a good and nice way of handling a situation

[Monkeypimp]

Originally posted by LHC
and two men's tosser

depending on what side you're on..

i dont have any problems whatsoever with americans, american culture, american form of goverment etc.
the only thing i have a problem with is american policy of worldwide intervention into almost everything as long as there is money to make and there usual oversimplification ("we are the forces of good and fight the evil commies / terrorists / whatever")

[bobble]

i dont see why so many of you see this post as arrogant. i read this as explanation only. it points out good and bad things about this country. to see this post (or parts of it) as arrogant is exemplory of a pre-concieved idea in your head about the way it is said, and who is saying it. another word for that is bigotry.

open your mind

[JonnyBGood]

Most people don't like Americans because the media tell them that all Americans are fat, stupid, ignorant and have a horrible superiority complex. Reality has very little to do with the situation, regardless of what it actually is.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Ärketrollmannen
dante, most europeans doesn't really see the US intervention in vietnam as an attemt to do good.

Perhaps - I can only talk from my own experience. When I was at school the Vietnam war was covered as roughly "LOL. Those Yanks really got owned there" rather than focussing on the murderous aftermath. In UK education (Afaik) Chile isn't covered until University level.

Obviously it might be fundamentally different on the continent.

[Radical Edward]

Michael Moore.

[Nerevar]

Originally posted by JonnyBGood
Most people don't like Americans because the media tell them that all Americans are fat, stupid, ignorant and have a horrible superiority complex. Reality has very little to do with the situation, regardless of what it actually is.

The media tells me that Americans are always incredibly good looking, rich and heroic. Fat americans seldom show up on TV.
That reality has little to do with this is obvious...

[Archi]

The media tells me that Americans are always incredibly good looking, rich and heroic.

Like Al bundy, he is pretty heroic in my eyes anyway

[Monkeypimp]

Originally posted by JonnyBGood
Most people don't like Americans because the media tell them that all Americans are fat, stupid, ignorant and have a horrible superiority complex. Reality has very little to do with the situation, regardless of what it actually is.

I don't like America because of what they do to other countries...

[Ärketrollmannen]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Perhaps - I can only talk from my own experience. When I was at school the Vietnam war was covered as roughly "LOL. Those Yanks really got owned there" rather than focussing on the murderous aftermath. In UK education (Afaik) Chile isn't covered until University level.

Obviously it might be fundamentally different on the continent.

ok...well, maybe we focus a bit more on History in Sweden

[Structural Integrity]

Originally posted by bobble
i dont see why so many of you see this post as arrogant. i read this as explanation only. it points out good and bad things about this country. to see this post (or parts of it) as arrogant is exemplory of a pre-concieved idea in your head about the way it is said, and who is saying it. another word for that is bigotry.

open your mind

It was the last line that did it for me....

I am sorry this is the case.

oh well...
Anyway, I agree with Wu_Trax' last post...

i dont have any problems whatsoever with americans, american culture, american form of goverment etc.
the only thing i have a problem with is american policy of worldwide intervention into almost everything as long as there is money to make and there usual oversimplification ("we are the forces of good and fight the evil commies / terrorists / whatever")

[Nerevar]

Originally posted by Archi
Like Al bundy, he is pretty heroic in my eyes anyway

Exactly

[menth0l]

Originally posted by queball
Hey guys what do you think of this article??

Isn't everything in that article already happening?

Or am i just thick and didn't realise that was the whole point :C

[JonnyBGood]

Originally posted by Nerevar
The media tells me that Americans are always incredibly good looking, rich and heroic. Fat americans seldom show up on TV.
That reality has little to do with this is obvious...

The media doesn't just include american sitcoms heh. Open up a health section in a paper for example and you'll more than likely read a story about how 50% of all americans, or some horrendous figure, are now all obese and this "McDonalds culture" is now pervading the rest of the planet.