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Unread 5 Dec 2004, 20:13   #1
Dreadnought FTW
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Does Race Exist?

Ive been reading lots of interesting stuff on race for my degree and have come to the conclusion race does not naturally exist but is a series of social constructions passed down overtime through the generations.

Is there any other examples of such social constructions that are created out of fear to supress people?

or rather what would you consider not to be a social construction?
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Unread 5 Dec 2004, 20:18   #2
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Waiting for Dante to post.

Race is just a way of divising people into groups dependant on charactistics, mainly skin colour.
It's essentially bollocks, like nationality.
But it deffo exists, only in people's minds though. Like pretty much everything.
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Unread 5 Dec 2004, 20:49   #3
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Re: Does Race Exist?

of course race exists. the three strands of the human species - caucasoid, negroid and mongoloid - are, while not drastically different from one another, different nonetheless.

the notion that race has any bearing on the character of the person, and subsequently that it has any merit as a means of dividing people within society, seems entirely a work of nonsense however.
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Unread 5 Dec 2004, 21:28   #4
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
the notion that race has any bearing on the character of the person, and subsequently that it has any merit as a means of dividing people within society, seems entirely a work of nonsense however.
It's not nonsensical if you consider in any way possible a genetic basis, or genetic trend, to personality. However, we must also remember, all this kind of statistical biology, it only applies as a trend to population.
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Unread 5 Dec 2004, 22:34   #5
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
It's essentially bollocks, like nationality.
is this an argument for or against black men being better endowed?

-mist
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Unread 5 Dec 2004, 22:43   #6
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Surely if membership of a certain race gives you a predisposition towards certain physical characteristics (eg. big nose), it could also give you a predisposition towards certain mental characteristics (eg. stupidity)?
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Unread 5 Dec 2004, 23:07   #7
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nondescript Human
Surely if membership of a certain race gives you a predisposition towards certain physical characteristics (eg. big nose), it could also give you a predisposition towards certain mental characteristics (eg. stupidity)?
Eh, no.

Dreadnought is correct. The variables between different humans are so small, that to the idea of different races is wrong.
That does not mean there are small things that seperates europeans from asians, like size, the bodys ability to break down alchol and so on.
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Unread 5 Dec 2004, 23:40   #8
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Re: Does Race Exist?

there are races, with some characteristics, but barely behavioural differences, those are more individual and culturally based.

Races however, do exist.
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Unread 5 Dec 2004, 23:46   #9
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Races, nationality and tribes.

They all exist so we know ourselves. A way of defining who we are.

The notion of superiority of races exists in our minds and is created and fuelled by propaganda of the 'so called' superior race.

As for biological differences, it is all explained by the geographical locations of the races and how long have they been settled there. Other factors include how well they lived and certain traditions.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 00:12   #10
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Re: Does Race Exist?

"Race" is a generally unscientific term, and it's usually unhelpful to introduce it into a scientific discussion. People generally refer to "blacks" for instance whereas it's been said that genetically East Africans have less in common with West Africans than Europeans have in common with East-Asians.

Race is a social construction stemming from biological differences. It's not an either/or thing. In some cases it's crudely socially constructed (e.g. Japanese people in apartheid South Africa were classed as whites but Chinese people were classed as coloureds) and in other cases slightly less so.

In informal discussions it's a fairly useful concept (e.g. when describing someone, saying their 'race' is a short-cut to describing lots of things about them) but in scientific (or even political) discussions it's less so.

Yes, it's quite possible to imagine that certain mental traits could exist more commonly in some 'races' than in others, but
a) there is no real solid evidence for that
b) that would say nothing of individuals (as Mark has already said)
c) our understanding about the interplay between genotype, phenotype, environment and mental charecteristics is so low that saying anything at all with certainty would be both misleading and dangerous.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 00:43   #11
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Re: Does Race Exist?

I think history has conclusively proved that white people are more likely to invent useful things than black people.



On a serious enough point (although that doesn't mean I won't troll it if the opportunity arises) to what extent is intelligence scientifically considered to be at least partially determined through genetics? We were having this argument in the pub the other night and I knew that I knew something in that area but I couldn't remember what it was
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 00:45   #12
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Re: Does Race Exist?

but black people will look cooler using them
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 00:47   #13
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I think history has conclusively proved that white people are more likely to invent useful things than black people.
On an "invention per-capita" scale aren't the Scots massively ahead of the Irish?
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 00:47   #14
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I think history has conclusively proved that white people are more likely to invent useful things than black people.
But black people are more likely to run faster.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 00:55   #15
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
On an "invention per-capita" scale aren't the Scots massively ahead of the Irish?
Yeah but they still haven't even gotten their independence yet so it's pretty obvious they're stupid as hell.



PS Do you know the answer to my edit above?
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 01:04   #16
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Depends who you believe. In the Bell Curve they make out that almost anyone who has considered the question seriously thinks it's definitely inheritable.

But in terms what do we "know" (i.e. can prove to reasonable certainly)? Absolutely nil. The closest thing to study are the "Twins seperated at birth" studies but they have their own problems, and fail to take into account other things. They tend to come back 60% (or something - I can't even remember what it's 60% of) from memory which is considered to be a strong support for inheritance of intelligence.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 01:05   #17
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
"Race" is a generally unscientific term, and it's usually unhelpful to introduce it into a scientific discussion. People generally refer to "blacks" for instance whereas it's been said that genetically East Africans have less in common with West Africans than Europeans have in common with East-Asians.

Race is a social construction stemming from biological differences. It's not an either/or thing. In some cases it's crudely socially constructed (e.g. Japanese people in apartheid South Africa were classed as whites but Chinese people were classed as coloureds) and in other cases slightly less so.

In informal discussions it's a fairly useful concept (e.g. when describing someone, saying their 'race' is a short-cut to describing lots of things about them) but in scientific (or even political) discussions it's less so.

Yes, it's quite possible to imagine that certain mental traits could exist more commonly in some 'races' than in others, but
a) there is no real solid evidence for that
b) that would say nothing of individuals (as Mark has already said)
c) our understanding about the interplay between genotype, phenotype, environment and mental charecteristics is so low that saying anything at all with certainty would be both misleading and dangerous.
The term race is used in several contexts such as the dog race, the human race, the German race and the animal race, not to mention the automobile race. Let's be a bit more precise and recall our high school biology lessons where we were taught the classification hierarchy: kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, species and variety. We must keep in mind that the particular classification of any form of life is open to debate and those debates still rage on. Nature doesn't classify, men do. And from this classification, based upon an ever-increasing number of physical similarities, men developed the notion of "evolution." It is as if someone discovered both a watch and a clock at the same time and then reaching the conclusion that one evolved from the other. (Recent discoveries in cell chemistry are demonstrating the impossibility of evolution according to Darwin.)

It's all semantics basically
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 01:08   #18
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Copying and pasting from websites without referencing is bad, k?
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 01:29   #19
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I think history has conclusively proved that white people are more likely to invent useful things than black people.
And black people are good at most major sports.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 01:32   #20
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Re: Does Race Exist?

ofc race exists, ptherwise how would you get white. asian and black people
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 01:36   #21
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
And black people are good at most major sports.
There was a great internet rant about how black people weren't actually any good at football and they were all lazy. It was so good it even denied pele was black
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 01:37   #22
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Where?
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 01:40   #23
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Re: Does Race Exist?

be ****ingb have
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 01:43   #24
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Exclamation Re: Does Race Exist?

Pele isn't black, he's swarthy.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 02:39   #25
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Ofc race exists. Some people are Cathaar, some people are Xandathrii

Terrans are the superior race though
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 02:45   #26
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Im Zik.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 05:06   #27
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Well after reading a bit more it is quite obvious race does not scientifically exist in either a genotypical or phenotypical form.

Race, Place and Space seem to be infintly linked in their constructions of each other i.e. Place constructs Race, yet also Race constructs place.

The reasons behind race being constructed are long drawn out but are simply an attempt by white people to supress the fear of blacks.

Well thats the gist im getting from reading 2 pieces by Mitchell, D [2000] and Delaney, D [2002]

We have to have a discussion later this morning about it so should be a quite interesting topic
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 05:10   #28
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
ofc race exists, ptherwise how would you get white. asian and black people
Race exists in no other species so why would it exist for humans? Sure there are natural variations in our skin colour and charactaristics but that is simple environmental determinism not a "race"

To say "race" would assume a different subspecies all together like the difference between the North American Robin and the European Robin. These species cannot mate together and thus are scientifically seperate entities. But North American humans and European humans can mate and thus scientifically are the same despite having different characteristics supposed to them by their environment
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 06:42   #29
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Exclamation Re: Does Race Exist?

Race is a social construct. The sequencing of the human genome has revealed that there are far more genetic variations within the so-called races than between them. Skin color, for example, which "defines" so much about one's race, appears to originate from variations of just a handful out of tens of thousands of genes.

I think it makes far more sense to talk instead about ethnicity rather than race.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 08:13   #30
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnought FTW
Race exists in no other species so why would it exist for humans? Sure there are natural variations in our skin colour and charactaristics but that is simple environmental determinism not a "race"
So from this moment forward we shall refer to it as not "race" but "breed".
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 10:19   #31
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Is this whole thread not just one big quibble?

There may be no such thing as race, but there are obvious differences between groups of people, which is all that race defines anyhow.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 11:49   #32
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Race is a social construct. The sequencing of the human genome has revealed that there are far more genetic variations within the so-called races than between them. Skin color, for example, which "defines" so much about one's race, appears to originate from variations of just a handful out of tens of thousands of genes.
On the other hand, if we're talking about (say) 5 consistently different variations between the supposed races, compared with 100, 200, 1,000 consistently random variations in any given population, then race does have a signiificant effect on populations.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 11:51   #33
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnought FTW
Race exists in no other species so why would it exist for humans? Sure there are natural variations in our skin colour and charactaristics but that is simple environmental determinism not a "race"

To say "race" would assume a different subspecies all together like the difference between the North American Robin and the European Robin. These species cannot mate together and thus are scientifically seperate entities. But North American humans and European humans can mate and thus scientifically are the same despite having different characteristics supposed to them by their environment
Subspecies can breed with eachother. Species can't.

Well, strictly speaking interspecies breeding can produce a sterile hybrid, such as the mule, but there we go.

Race exists in other species; MeridianStar isn't far off the mark with the equation between race and breed. The main difference is that race originates through elongated periods of physical isolation (in addition to base original genetic stock), whereas breeding tends to be more about being selective within a localised population.

Important note: species can seperate when they're far apart. Species can also seperate when they're coexisting. Likewise, long-term seperation doesn't imply speciation.

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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 12:59   #34
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
On a serious enough point (although that doesn't mean I won't troll it if the opportunity arises) to what extent is intelligence scientifically considered to be at least partially determined through genetics? We were having this argument in the pub the other night and I knew that I knew something in that area but I couldn't remember what it was
A few groups did a load of identical and non-identical twin tests and came back with the answer that intelligence is about 40% genetic and 60% nurture (i think*). As Dante said though twin studies arent perfect and our understanding of the working of the brain and intelligence isnt that good either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion
(Recent discoveries in cell chemistry are demonstrating the impossibility of evolution according to Darwin.)
If you are going to come up with something like that at least give a source of information because otherwise it sounds like a load of made up crap. Even if you give a source it still probably is a load of BS, dont believe everything you read.


*was a few years ago when i read this and the numbers could be the other way round
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 14:32   #35
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnought FTW
Well after reading a bit more it is quite obvious race does not scientifically exist in either a genotypical or phenotypical form.

Race, Place and Space seem to be infintly linked in their constructions of each other i.e. Place constructs Race, yet also Race constructs place.

The reasons behind race being constructed are long drawn out but are simply an attempt by white people to supress the fear of blacks.

Well thats the gist im getting from reading 2 pieces by Mitchell, D [2000] and Delaney, D [2002]
Yeah, this certainly looks pretty scientific to me.

I assume these are sociology/cultural studies papers, rather than say, biology or medicine?
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 14:42   #36
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Well, strictly speaking interspecies breeding can produce a sterile hybrid, such as the mule, but there we go.
just to blur the line a bit more, you can occasionally have fertile hinnys, which are produced from the same species as mules but with a female donkey and male horse instead of a female horse and male donkey (as is the case for a mule). I forget the name of the rule now, but if the female is the one with the larger number of chromosomes, then the offspring stand a higher chance of being fertile.

Ligers and wholfins apparently are also occasionally fertile. Then you also have the ends of ring species which can breed all around the ring, but not at the two ends of the ring, such as the herring gull/lesser black backed gull and the Ensatina (salamander) ring species. The Israeli naked mole rat is a sort of ring species, but it is linear so the two ends never meet, but they can't breed.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 14:46   #37
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Race is a social construct. The sequencing of the human genome has revealed that there are far more genetic variations within the so-called races than between them. Skin color, for example, which "defines" so much about one's race, appears to originate from variations of just a handful out of tens of thousands of genes.

I think it makes far more sense to talk instead about ethnicity rather than race.
The problem with that is that it is hypothetically possible for a species to form as a result in the change of only two genes, or one gene twice, and all other genes being pretty much the same (say the same abundances of the different alleles in the population) so by your numbers argument these two groups are the same race, but different species.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 14:50   #38
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Re: Does Race Exist?

People seem to be getting a bit confused over the fact that the word 'race' has 2 distinct meanings. Appealing to the scientific definition when someone else is discussing its meaning in common use seems a bit silly.

Without further clarification, the question "Does race exist?" is meaningless. Rephrasing it as "Does 'race', as used in popular discourse, have any scientific basis within human biology?" (assuming this is what you actually meant; I honestly have no idea) would perhaps be better, since now it actually makes sense and can be given a serious answer.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 14:56   #39
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
People seem to be getting a bit confused over the fact that the word 'race' has 2 distinct meanings. Appealing to the scientific definition when someone else is discussing its meaning in common use seems a bit silly.
or attempting to discuss the common usage with scientific backing.
Quote:
Without further clarification, the question "Does race exist?" is meaningless. Rephrasing it as "Does 'race', as used in popular discourse, have any scientific basis within human biology?" (assuming this is what you actually meant; I honestly have no idea) would perhaps be better, since now it actually makes sense and can be given a serious answer.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 14:57   #40
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion
Recent discoveries in cell chemistry are demonstrating the impossibility of evolution according to Darwin.
The Cambridge University Genetics Department knows not a jot of this, so I doubt its validity.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 15:00   #41
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
The Cambridge University Genetics Department knows not a jot of this, so I doubt its validity.

copied from here by the way:

http://www.faem.com/edward/noway.htm

I expected it to be AnswersInGenesis to be honest though.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 15:26   #42
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
copied from here by the way:

http://www.faem.com/edward/noway.htm

I expected it to be AnswersInGenesis to be honest though.
I forgot he had hijacked it. I wouldn't have bothered replying if I had remembered, other than in the general sense in which I already had.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 15:43   #43
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I forgot he had hijacked it. I wouldn't have bothered replying if I had remembered, other than in the general sense in which I already had.
I did forget to note though, that creationists are incredibly adept at misquoting people. It is quite probable that the statement was extracted from work such as that by Woese(2002) which questions the importance of vertical intergenerational inheritance early on in the formation of life. the Darwinian model does not really allow for horizontal transfer of genetic information between species. This horizontal transfer thus makes the possibility of finding a single common ancestor at the root of the phylogenetic tree practically impossible, and it is better served by considering a common ancestral group of microorganisms.


Woese, Carl : "On the evolution of cells," Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA 2002 Jun 25; 99 [13]: 8742-8747
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 15:50   #44
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
the Darwinian model does not really allow for [horizontal transfer of genetic information]. This... makes the possibility of finding a single common ancestor practically impossible
straight from the horse's mouth.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 15:55   #45
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
straight from the horse's mouth.
precisely. you'd make a good creationist
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 15:59   #46
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Re: Does Race Exist?

If Evolution is true, then how do you explain that animals, over time, change into other animals?

EH?

EH?
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 16:47   #47
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Animals don't change. Our ability to deconstruct them within a relativistic framework subtly alters due to fundamental social shifts in the marxist-leninist dialectical approach. It's a very different thing.
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Unread 6 Dec 2004, 17:42   #48
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Question Re: Does Race Exist?

Can anyone explain budgies scientifically?
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Unread 7 Dec 2004, 10:37   #49
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Re: Does Race Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If Evolution is true, then how do you explain that animals, over time, change into other animals?

EH?

EH?

has anyone ever SEEN macroevolutiojn? we have never seen a dog giving birth to a cat or identified the common ancestor between a chicken and a banana. did you know that the DNA of humans and apes are supposed to be 98.5% similar? well a watermelon is made of 99% water, and so is a cloud, so watermelons are more related to clouds than we are to apes! oh by the way, the speed of light emitted from the headlights of a moving car is the speed of light plus the speed of the car and conservation of angular momentum means that things breaking off spinning obsects spin in the same direction.

www.drdino.com
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Unread 7 Dec 2004, 10:42   #50
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Re: Does Race Exist?

I was more referencing the fact that creationists tend to take evidence for evolution, or something connected to evolution, and then attempt to use it to disprove evolution. An example of this is the continental drift.
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