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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 01:55   #1
roadrunner_0
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[BBC news]were they right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4670370.stm

so, other countries newspapers have backed up their danish colleagues, to the extent where aa chief editor has got himself the sack. But should they have published? I, personally, believe that they were right to do so, and if it were a british newspaper which had published, it would have recieved my full backing. Satire should be universal, as should freedom of expression, and i think that this highlights a fundamental difference of opinion between muslims and, basically, pretty much everyone else.
What do other people think, are the muslims right to be offended, or should they 'lighten up' and realise that humour it a part of society, no matter where you are?
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 01:57   #2
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Yes, yes they were.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 01:58   #3
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

yes what, qualify that statement please:
yes they were right to publish or yes the muslims are right to be offended
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 02:05   #4
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

satire?

Quote:
The caricatures include drawings of Muhammad wearing a headdress shaped like a bomb, while another shows him saying that paradise was running short of virgins for suicide bombers.
ha ha. ha ha ha ha ha.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 02:06   #5
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

They were right to publish it, as I agree that freedom of expression shouldn't be restricted. There are a few examples of things that shouldn't be published, such as things that could compromise a criminal investigation, but otherwise pretty much anything is fair game in my view. Though I dislike it when the media chooses to focus on irrelevant topics like whether Simon Hughes is or is not gay of all things.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 02:15   #6
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

When I see some evidence to show that no Islamic paper has ever done something similar, then I might have some sympathy for their position. However, while highly controversial (and possibly unwise) in this case, satire is part of freedom of expression.

As for all the fuss over the depiction of Muhammed (forbidden by Islam etc), tough shit frankly. You can't impose the rules of religion on a secular society.


In conclusion, while the publication may have been unwise, I'd be happy that it is legal. Not necessarily right by many definitions, but not specifically wrong.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 02:20   #7
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
When I see some evidence to show that no Islamic paper has ever done something similar,
What depict Muhammed or other people's religious prophets/god?


[edit]
Sorry dude i accidentally edited your post when meaning to respond!
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 02:26   #8
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Every newspaper in Europe should print them.

It's simple enough logic that although Muslims are prohibited from representing Mohammed in any form, that rule doesn't apply to non-Muslims. I also expect that most Muslims understand this and don't care about the cartoons, and it's just the dodgy leaders making a big deal out of it.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 02:28   #9
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
What depict Muhammed or other people's religious prophets/god?
The latter (plus satire).
I find it hard to believe that papers in various Islamic countries have never satired the west, and given the strong emphasis on religion I imagine christianity will have come in somewhere. This is of course purely conjecture.
The response, frankly, has been a complete over-reaction. Fine, uphold the principals of your religion in countries under Islamic law or influence, but sod off with the arrogance of assuming you can tell another state what they may or may not publish.

I realise the hypocrisy inherant in this viewpoint given the UK's recent tendancy to meddle in other countries with a few thousand troops and some bombs. All I can say is that I never supported that.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 02:31   #10
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-X
Every newspaper in Europe should print them.

It's simple enough logic that although Muslims are prohibited from representing Mohammed in any form, that rule doesn't apply to non-Muslims. I also expect that most Muslims understand this and don't care about the cartoons, and it's just the dodgy leaders making a big deal out of it.
Logical point tbh, if muslims dont like dont read it. What about the da vinci code? Thats slagging off catholicism, but nooooo cant stand up for the catholics can we now...
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 02:43   #11
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Tbh this whole thing seems to be born from the narrowmindedness of some prominent Muslim officials, and extremism in general. I find it hard to understand how so many millions of people still live their lives under religious regimes (and I'm not just talking about Islam here), much as I imagine they would have trouble comprehending our way of life.

The interpretation of religion as law is something we have been without for well over a hundred years now, and I think we are all the better for it. You can talk about some of the scary rednecks in the US bible belt if you want, but things like the (recently deposed) regime in Afganistan never cease to amaze me. The fact that so many people (women especially) are forced to accept such treatment and do so without revolt is astounding.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 02:49   #12
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Logical point tbh, if muslims dont like dont read it.
Then again, looking at it from a different angle, it's not a question of like (or dislike) but a question of offence.

The Muslims have been 'offended' and they're standing up against those taking the piss out of/desecrating their prophet (even though it's a joke). I don't blame them for standing up to something they firmly believe in (even though it's over the top).

I'm all for satire but I guess there are certain things you can't take the piss out of.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 02:51   #13
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
but things like the (recently deposed) regime in Afganistan
Tbh, that regime was so extreme that it wasn't even considered Islamic by prolific muslim scholars.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 02:54   #14
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
I'm all for satire but I guess there are certain things you can't take the piss out of.

but the point is that that simply shouldn't be the case, i'm an atheist who takes the piss out of catholicism on a regular basis, should i have my picture burned in the vatican? No, and not simply because im one person rather than a newspaper. The right to free speech and the ability to satirise serious subjects are (i believe) inherent in a free society - as shown by the governments defeat(s) on tuesday night. when you lose those rights, you lose something from society that cannot easily be regained
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 03:08   #15
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

have you heard about the fake cartoons that Danish Muslim leaders added to the real ones before they showed them to the extremists just to increase their reaction?

(I guess they must have drawn them themselves, how 'rolleyes' is that?)

Quote:
When Danish Muslim leaders recently toured the Islamic world with a 43-page report protesting 12 cartoons published by the newspaper Iyllands-Posten last October, they inserted an extra three into the Report for good measure. The Brussells Journal reported that the extra cartoons depicted Mohamed as a pedophile and a pigsnout, with a third, portraying a praying Muslim being raped by a dog.
Akhmad Akkari, spokesperson for the Muslim organizations involved in the tour, told The Brussels Journal that the three extra cartoons had been added to “give an insight in how hateful the atmosphere in Denmark is towards Muslims.” The truth – it appears – was considered insufficient by the 21 Danish Muslim organizations protesting the publication of pictures of their prophet, Mohamed.
a link to a page with the 12 cartoons for those who haven't seen them
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 03:17   #16
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Then again, looking at it from a different angle, it's not a question of like (or dislike) but a question of offence.

The Muslims have been 'offended' and they're standing up against those taking the piss out of/desecrating their prophet (even though it's a joke). I don't blame them for standing up to something they firmly believe in (even though it's over the top).

I'm all for satire but I guess there are certain things you can't take the piss out of.
I agree that muslims may get offended.

However, there are many groups that get offended. Take Catholics for example (shit example I know but everyone loves some catholic bashing) to a certain extent jews are branded in a bad light and the old prejudices are still there. I dont think its wholy religion I think its a group of people. Take gays for example or single mums or nerds. Each group are mocked, but taking it on the chin and not over reacting is something that we all need to learn. The muslims arent alone on this.

Indeed they should stand up for it if it offends them, and your right you cant take the piss out of certain groups. They are called the jews.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 03:34   #17
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
I agree that muslims may get offended.

However, there are many groups that get offended. Take Catholics for example (shit example I know but everyone loves some catholic bashing) to a certain extent jews are branded in a bad light and the old prejudices are still there. I dont think its wholy religion I think its a group of people. Take gays for example or single mums or nerds. Each group are mocked, but taking it on the chin and not over reacting is something that we all need to learn. The muslims arent alone on this.

Indeed they should stand up for it if it offends them, and your right you cant take the piss out of certain groups. They are called the jews.
But when you're mocking said groups, you mock them for the stereotype e.g., Jews are gold-diggers. The Jews might get offended by that. Say "Muslims are suicide bombers" and there won't be as much of an uproar* as "your prophet's a paedo".

I take the piss out of my indian friend by making references to Apu from the Simpsons but I don't go to as far as "you lot drink piss, that's ****ing retarded". I personally don't believe in taking the piss out of someone's belief.

My £0.02 anyway.


*I know they caused an uproar when that Kilroy dude made comments about the arabs.


P.S. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. Take it on the chin and move on.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 08:25   #18
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Exclamation Re: [BBC news]were they right?

I don't think they did anything wrong by publishing them. This entire controversy* started when a Danish author complained that he couldn't find an artist brave enough to illustrate his upcoming book about Mohammed. The newspaper Jyllands-Posten issued a call for submissions from artists willing to take up the challenge and printed the submissions.

Kudos to the other papers who've also published them (except the France Soir newspaper--they sacked their editor ). It's a bit sad to see all the newspapers that have reported on the controversy but haven't dared to show their readers what the fuss is about.





*Don't tell anyone, but Mohammad was also caricatured in a South Park episode.

He also appears on the north frieze of the US Supreme Court building (as one of the law givers).
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 09:24   #19
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

The specific tone of the cartoon was probably unwise (or at least unfriendly) but once this whole nonsense had begun if I were a newspaper editor I'd print it every single day until people got used to it.

Shock wears off. Once upon a time (and perhaps in most places even today) people would get offended if they saw two gay guys holding hands, or kissing in public or whatever. The only way you can really combat this is by being blatant about it, which presumably is part of the logic behind gay pride parades and such. In the face of intolerance all one can show is defiance.

Having said that, the cartoons were fairly unfunny although that really doesn't matter.

p.s. Not all of the reaction by Muslims has been unwarranted. Boycotting a newspaper because they carry an editorial line you disapprove of seems fairly justified to me. Of course, the use of force is completely different.
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Originally Posted by Blastoderm
I'm all for satire but I guess there are certain things you can't take the piss out of.
No, nothing should be sacred from the holocaust. The holocaust, the victims of crimes, the disabled, tsunami victims, religion, the monarch. Nothing is beyond the pale when it comes to satire. You can take the piss out of anything. Whether you should is another matter.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 10:26   #20
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Any religion should be fair game for poking fun at, and the papers were right to publish the cartoons. The sacking was totally wrong.

What is any religion at the end of the day? - A belief that cannot be backed up with any evidence whatsoever. Frankly people who believe in 'fairytales' should be ridiculed and should not be protected in any special way. To offer such nutters such protection is force rational people like myself to respect a bunch of unproven bullshit as fact, fact to never be questioned, ever. I'm sorry but if you choose to believe in something fantastical wihtout any proof I will laugh at you and quite frankly you should expect me to!

If I turned around and said I believed that Dinosaurs were native to Mars, and only ended up on Earth because they all worked together to build a big rocketship and flew here, but one day their reactor went critical and exploded and this casued their extinction... would you take me seriously or laugh at me? I have no proof of anything I just said, but I choose to believe in it (well not really, but for the purpose of this post I will ), should I have absolute protection from ridicule!? Hell no! How is this any different than believing in any deity?
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 11:40   #21
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Clone High got cancelled because people in India started boycotting MTV due to the depiction of Gandhi as a party animal
I (and at least 100,000 people who signed an online petition) want a second series!
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 12:06   #22
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I would have the though in fact that the best response to satire would be satire.
It's difficult to satrisie people who wear shiny shoes.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 12:11   #23
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
yes what, qualify that statement please:
yes they were right to publish or yes the muslims are right to be offended
They were right to publish it.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 13:42   #24
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

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What is any religion at the end of the day? - A belief that cannot be backed up with any evidence whatsoever.
I follow football as a religion. I follow Arsenal (no matter how shit they are) and I think Arsene Wenger is magic and Thierry Henry is god.
Evidence? Tune in to Match of the Day on BBC 1 every Saturday.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 13:44   #25
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
I follow football as a religion. I follow Arsenal (no matter how shit they are) and I think Arsene Wenger is magic and Thierry Henry is god.
Evidence? Tune in to Match of the Day on BBC 1 every Saturday.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 13:54   #26
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Then again, looking at it from a different angle, it's not a question of like (or dislike) but a question of offence.

The Muslims have been 'offended' and they're standing up against those taking the piss out of/desecrating their prophet (even though it's a joke). I don't blame them for standing up to something they firmly believe in (even though it's over the top).
Some Muslims get offended by women exposing their arms in public, who cares? We dont need to take the views of the mentally ill seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
I take the piss out of my indian friend by making references to Apu from the Simpsons but I don't go to as far as "you lot drink piss, that's ****ing retarded". I personally don't believe in taking the piss out of someone's belief..
Why? Some beliefs are stupid and wrong, and pretending that they are reasonable is just silly. A person who believes that dragons are carrying him away in his sleep doesnt need people telling him that his opinion is valid - he needs psychiatric help. The same applies to those who think that a god gets angry when people draw cartoons.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 13:56   #27
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

To be relevent to the topic at hand, it doesn't matter if I think they were right to do it, because they had A right to be able to do it.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 14:38   #28
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

I think it was a pretty stupid and inflammatory thing to do.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 16:22   #29
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Good.
The page 1-X linked to just makes me even more disgusted by the reaction really. Only a couple of the cartoons are actually inflamatory, and the comments thread on his site is just stupid. There are "responses" from both muslims defending their faith as one of peace and tollerance while in the same post calling on Allah to bring destruction on the west, and others all out attacking Islam.

Don't get me wrong, there are some intelligent and well worded comments from both sides of the argument, but the vast majority is pure bollocks - and I'm sorry to say that most of the bollocks from the Islamic side is pretty hypocritical.
It makes you despair sometimes, it really does.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 16:39   #30
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

the cartoons are shit tho.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 17:23   #31
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Some Muslims get offended by women exposing their arms in public, who cares? We dont need to take the views of the mentally ill seriously.
Just highlighting that. You're most likely talking about the extremists/fundamenalists who are the minority in the muslim society. Not every muslim shares the same view as, for example, Osama bin Laden.
But comparing being offended by women exposing their arms in public and desecrating the muslim's prophet is two completely different things (and a bad one too). The majority of muslims would care more about their prophet than the example you've given. It's part of their foundations of being muslim.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 18:22   #32
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Religion is a well drilled process by which you control the masses and their thought process in order to get across your personal point of view.

Almost all religions can be traced back to this at their beginnings, via their holy books.

Mohammed was only one man.
Jesus was only one man.

Yet their actions define a very large portion of the world we live in today.

What would Mohammed do if he saw his followers blowing themselves up in his name, murdering thousands of people?

What could Jesus do (dont go there) if he saw right wing christian groups killing doctors for performing abortions?

And what would both of them make of the people now claiming to speak with their voice?
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 20:09   #33
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
The majority of muslims would care more about their prophet than the example you've given. It's part of their foundations of being muslim.
The majority of Muslims get offended by pictures of Muhammed. Who cares?
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 20:16   #34
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Once upon a time most Christians would have probably been offended by satirical pictures of Christians.

They got over it.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 20:22   #35
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
What could Jesus do (dont go there) if he saw right wing christian groups killing doctors for performing abortions?
(Hi this is Jesus
I can't get to the phone right now
But if you leave a message after the tone
I'll get right back to you)

Beep

Dear Jesus
I don't believe in you no more
Dear Jesus
I think you should know the score
I never met you
Cos you lived a long long time ago
Not to upset you
But there's not a lot to know

Born in a stable
Is the story we were told
He had a beard
And you wore a lot of shitty clothes

He walked on water then you held a kickin' party on the beach
And the people gathered round to watch you talk and hail and preach
But the bunch of pretty fishers turnin' water into wine
Sure I'd be a true believer if I'd been there at the time

Dear Jesus
I aint buyin' all this shit
Dear Jesus
I dont want no part of it
Don't know what you had in mind, but I'm sure it wasn't this
I met a couple of cool Christians, but the Rev's just take the piss
They it’s awful to be gay, cos there aint no family
And they made you give them money when you see them on TV

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh Jesus!
Looks like we’re gona hafta throw things down the old school way!
What my mum said, Bring it on!

Dear Jesus, el Presidente
Declared war on them today
He read the Bible, evidently
And your Dad says it's ok

Like this guy lives on my block
He's such an asshole to my mom
And he flips off all the Muslims
Like their doin' somethin' wrong
I know plenty other dicks like that
But this just makes it worse
He thinks he is so much better
Just because he goes to church

Dear Jesus
Dear Jesus

If you come back just like you said you would
I know that we could chill
But these days we need some evidence
To show that your for real

Dear Jesus
Dear Jesus
Dear Jesus

I hope you got my message when your back if you can
If you even leave tonight, it's means I'm your number one fan
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 20:26   #36
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
What would Mohammed do if he saw his followers blowing themselves up in his name, murdering thousands of people?
Probably support it, the "military" actions under his direct command could be pretty bloody.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 21:00   #37
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Probably support it, the "military" actions under his direct command could be pretty bloody.
the mecca muhammed was rather peace-loving, after being forced out he became rather nasty (the medina muhammed)

a bit like the change in the old and new religion God...
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 22:13   #38
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Erm, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Christianity, Islam and Judaism all branches steming from Abraham. And don't they all worship Abrahams 'one true' God. So, the same one?
So....if they all worship the same God....what's the problem?
See, they've all been caught up with the middle children of the religion.
*shakes head*

Just another dysfunctional family...
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 22:21   #39
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IncubusGod
Erm, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Christianity, Islam and Judaism all branches steming from Abraham. And don't they all worship Abrahams 'one true' God. So, the same one?
We dont have a criterion of identity here - what possible facts could cause us to say that the god they worship is either the same one or different?
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 23:29   #40
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Once upon a time most Christians would have probably been offended by satirical pictures of Christians.

They got over it.
Indeed. Life of Brian was banned in Norway for a few years. If something like that got made today, it would be totally out of the question to ban it.

Poor muslims. They* have acted like utter idiots. Every sterotype of themselfs have been "made right". First they started threathening the whole of Denmark becouse of one newspaper. Then Norway got added to the list, becouse one christian magazine (who I never heard of before) reprinted the same illustrations. Then Sweden got added on the "bad boys" list. For no reason. Now Hizbollah is threathning Denmark and Norway with "actions". Yeah, becouse everyone in Norway subscribe to that magazine.... 99% of the norwegian popluation didnt even know the magazine existed.
And then you read stories like this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4675504.stm

And the average euroean Joe starts to think: "what a bunch of idiots".
I know one thing for certain. Israel is having a good laugh now. The palestinians have made a lot of bad PR for themselfs.

Just imagine if I were to threathen Nodrog every time he said something negative about Karl Marx. Or if Norway would demand an appology from Tony Blair over the Top Gear guy who said Norway was ubershit and so on recently.


*some of them.
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Unread 3 Feb 2006, 00:40   #41
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Satire has it's place. So often it's just thinly veiled, pointless nastiness, though. Some Muslims may be reacting stupidly (and unhelpfully), but Islam should not become the butt of baseless, malicious attacks.
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Unread 3 Feb 2006, 08:21   #42
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

They are just alienating themselves further by reacting like madmen.

They have two choices, blow themselves up or get over it.

Either way the world wins
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Unread 3 Feb 2006, 15:14   #43
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

http://www.outpost911.com/

this is a mirror of the 'Mohammed Image Archive', a collection of depictions of Mohammed including some done by Muslims and sold openly in Muslim countries without any fuss.
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Unread 3 Feb 2006, 15:32   #44
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I declare an international day of anger!
Will there be beer?
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Unread 4 Feb 2006, 15:35   #45
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Interesting update: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4676524.stm

That's the first sensible thing I've seen reported about this whole stupid mess.
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Unread 4 Feb 2006, 18:15   #46
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Interesting update: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4676524.stm

That's the first sensible thing I've seen reported about this whole stupid mess.
I'm glad someone said it. I'd seen those placards and the people interviewed spouting hate and death and wondered why it was allowed.
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Unread 4 Feb 2006, 20:24   #47
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

The Sword of Islam

A very scary and eye opening read.
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Unread 4 Feb 2006, 21:13   #48
G.K Zhukov
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
The Sword of Islam

A very scary and eye opening read.
Becouse that site you are refering to is full of zionist lies. It's so full of racism and historical revisionism that it would be doubtful as a good source of objective information.
If you want to critisize Israel, you don't use information posted at nazi-website, do you?
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Unread 4 Feb 2006, 21:17   #49
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Becouse that site you are refering to is full of zionist lies.
Oh, I don't know. It has it's moments :
Quote:
WHERE THERE'S SMOKE...THERE'S MUSLIMS!
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Unread 4 Feb 2006, 21:49   #50
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Re: [BBC news]were they right?

This is the winner:

Quote:
WARNING: WORLD WAR THREE IS UNDERWAY and it's much more sinister than you could have imagined. When did it start? Fourteen centuries ago. Who started it? An insane pedophile named Mohammed who, along with his gang of terrorists, formed the savagely oppressive, dehumanizing religion of Islam.
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