Understanding disturbance

[Andy_r]

From what I have seen in Beta, getting a good understanding of disturbance (as well as the other formulas) is going to be an important part of strategy in this round.

What we know is that disturbance is calculated per ship class (not ship type), and is based on the number of ships being shot at.

I have found from beta testing that a good rule of thumb is "if about 15% of a ship class dies, then that class is disturbed"

Does anyone have combat reports that either contradict this or help to make my guess of about 15% more accurate?

[NEWSBOT3]

Originally posted by Andy_r
From what I have seen in Beta, getting a good understanding of disturbance (as well as the other formulas) is going to be an important part of strategy in this round.

What we know is that disturbance is calculated per ship class (not ship type), and is based on the number of ships being shot at.

I have found from beta testing that a good rule of thumb is "if about 15% of a ship class dies, then that class is disturbed"

Does anyone have combat reports that either contradict this or help to make my guess of about 15% more accurate?

Dont think of it as 'ships dying'

dead ships are already pretty disturbed...

disturbance happens when ships are fired upon , whether that shot hits or not.

[Andy_r]

That's a good point, if that is so (and NB3 should know) then we need to know how many guns ships have to predict 'disturbance', as well as the cut-off level for disturbance.

Things would be even more complicated if there is a sliding scale of disturbance rather than a fixed cuttoff point aboue which no roids are capped and below which capping ocurrs dependent on the live ships roid capping strength.

[NEWSBOT3]

well, you would need to know, if you were thinking in r9 style of shipstats...

[Andy_r]

heh, well you could always skip the cryptic stuff and just tell us how it works ;-)

I can't see where my logic is wrong though - if the number of ships being shot at counts, surely the number of guns firing at them is a factor?

I think that the old scientific method of hypothesis then experiment will help us unenlightened players. I've stuck my hypothesis in my first post, and I guess I'll just wait for results to be posted.

[NEWSBOT3]

Originally posted by Andy_r
heh, well you could always skip the cryptic stuff and just tell us how it works ;-)

I can't see where my logic is wrong though - if the number of ships being shot at counts, surely the number of guns firing at them is a factor?

I think that the old scientific method of hypothesis then experiment will help us unenlightened players. I've stuck my hypothesis in my first post, and I guess I'll just wait for results to be posted.

i could, but i have to be careful what i say stats wise

your logic is fine, your just making one assumption thats throwing it off.

[Wandows]

Originally posted by NEWSBOT3
Dont think of it as 'ships dying'

dead ships are already pretty disturbed...

disturbance happens when ships are fired upon , whether that shot hits or not.

do not forget that not every shot hits, so the part of avoiding enemy fire goes for all ships. When 15% of your ships is hit that much to actually die, just think about how many shots must have been fired in total to do that damage. So in theory they get fired on so much they can't evade the hits anymore and need to take damage hence they are disturbed to much (the surviving ships aswell).
And like Andy_R said from what i have seen in beta 15-20% casualties on enemie side (for each class attacking ofcourse) was enough to stop roid losses.


and its impossible to find the number of guns on any ship without any numbers being provided. So don't even start thinking of finding that out

[NEWSBOT3]

Originally posted by Wandows
do not forget that not every shot hits, so the part of avoiding enemy fire goes for all ships. When 15% of your ships is hit that much to actually die, just think about how many shots must have been fired in total to do that damage. So in theory they get fired on so much they can't evade the hits anymore and need to take damage hence they are disturbed to much (the surviving ships aswell).
And like Andy_R said from what i have seen in beta 15-20% casualties on enemie side (for each class attacking ofcourse) was enough to stop roid losses.


and its impossible to find the number of guns on any ship without any numbers being provided. So don't even start thinking of finding that out

As i said,

Dont think of it as 'ships dying'

dead ships are already pretty disturbed...

disturbance happens when ships are fired upon , whether that shot hits or not.

and your making the same assumption that andy_r is doing.
this isnt r9, and neither are the shipstats.

[Wandows]

i am making the same assumption yes, since that is all i have been able to make up from the disturbance thing, i don't want to make things to complicated for myself


but i assume when there is a certain amount of "fleet-value" firing at the attacking shipclass (ofcourse compared to the attacking fleet value) the ships will be disturbed enough not to take any roids.

meaning.... if there is 20.000 fleet value of Fi attacking you for example need 40.000 fleet value of Fi targetting ships to stop them from taking roids. Dunno if anyone has tested this though (or calced it from old BR's)

[NEWSBOT3]

Originally posted by Wandows
i am making the same assumption yes, since that is all i have been able to make up from the disturbance thing, i don't want to make things to complicated for myself

Thats the conclusion you are both making.
its not wrong, but one of your initial assumptions that you are both making is. As i said, this isnt r9, and neither are the shipstats.

As long as enough shots are fired at the attacking fleet and by inference, as long as there as enough defensive ships firing then the attackers will get disturbed.

Since not every shot hits, you see the results of this , such that :

I have found from beta testing that a good rule of thumb is "if about 15% of a ship class dies, then that class is disturbed"

[General Martok]

Originally posted by NEWSBOT3
Thats the conclusion you are both making.
its not wrong, but one of your initial assumptions that you are both making is. As i said, this isnt r9, and neither are the shipstats.

As long as enough shots are fired at the attacking fleet and by inference, as long as there as enough defensive ships firing then the attackers will get disturbed.

Since not every shot hits, you see the results of this , such that :

You get tired of reapeating yourself yet?

Let me get this straigth. We only see the results, but we cannot assume that the percentage of killed ships is fully related to the disturbance, right?

So since the xan über fi-fi shoots more effectively, a higher percentage of it's shots hit enemies. So if 1000 Sirtalis fire at 3000 hostile ships, it fires lets say 2000 shots. Due its high efficiency it kills 800 hostiles, e.g. roughly 22%.

Now lets take 1000 ****ty banishers against that same 3000 hostiles. The banishers also fire 2000 blasts, but kill only 400 fighters, roughly 11%.

In both cases the hostiles get fired upon 2000 times. Lets ASSUME that if 66% of all hostiles get fired upon (NOT die) they are disturbed. So in both cases the attackers fighters are disturbed (2000 / 3000 = 66.6%). Though the Sirtalis kills 22%, and the banishers only 11%. So we can't look at kills only, we have to relate it to the defending ****s.

Right NB3 ?

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by NEWSBOT3
As i said, this isnt r9, and neither are the shipstats.

Well yes, but that's not terribly helpful. It's not unreasonable to assume R10 combat rules are similar to previous combat rules; at least as a starting point. We can think of ships with a certain number of guns, weapon power, weapon targeting speed, armor, etc. Likewise, we think of targeting working the same; that is, as if all guns target a single class/ship until it's destroyed and then move on to the next, etc. None of these assumptions is necessarily true, of course, but since Spinner's going to play this game of hiding the formulas we have to start somewhere. We have to formulate hypotheses and test them against actual combat reports, modifying our hypotheses (and possibly assumptions) as we go along.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter if we understand all the underlying details, as long as we can get reasonable predictions. And it could turn out that Andy_r's "rule of thumb" might be "good enough" after all.

[Andy_r]

Originally posted by NEWSBOT3
not every shot hits

hmm, that's odd, I was assuming that all the old agility/weaponspeed stuff had all been thrown out in the pursuit of simplification, and that every shot would hit.

I wonder why it is still in there?

I think what NB3 is getting is that ships can be disturbed by being shot at, even if the shot misses?

The implication is that some ships will be better at disturbing than at killing (many weak guns), and others better at killing than disturbing (fewer bigger guns)?

[Ultimate Newbie]

From #support
[05:52] <Sovereign> NB3: so disruption is based entirely on shots fired, regardless of damage done?
[05:53] <NB3> yes
[05:53] <NB3> disruption can be thought of
[05:53] <NB3> as
[05:53] <NB3> 'oh crap, someones firing at me, must avoid it'
[05:53] <Sovereign> evasive action?
[05:53] <Sovereign> yeah
[05:53] <NB3> so the ships spend all their time trying not to die
[05:53] <NB3> and not capping etc
[05:53] <Sovereign> Nb3: what is the relationship between large and small ships #guns
[05:54] <Sovereign> (well, if there is one)
[05:54] <Sovereign> and,
[05:54] <NB3> large and small ship guns ?
[05:55] <NB3> hmm, i just thought about it, and capping is actually really easy to work out
[05:55] <Sovereign> do races differ in the # guns they possess - ie for cathaar's lack of power do they have an increased number of guns to minimise roid loss?
[05:55] <NB3> who even says ships have a number of guns anyymore ?
[05:55] <Sovereign> [05:54] <NB3> large and small ship guns ? <<-- ie, if all ships have one gun, then Fighters win out as more guns = more disruption
[05:56] <Sovereign> [05:55] <NB3> who even says ships have a number of guns anyymore ? <-- how else is disruption calculated?
[05:56] <Sovereign> a dart board?
[05:56] <NB3> heh.
[05:58] <NB3> the problem i have with talking about stats related things, is that i have access to the full proper stats, and so i have to be careful what i say in reply
[05:58] <Sovereign> right, let me get this straight
[05:58] <Sovereign> Roid loss/capture is calculated by the number of guns that fire
[05:59] <NB3> cap is simpler than that
[05:59] <NB3> look at the Missions page of the manual
[05:59] <NB3> see if you can work it out
[05:59] <Sovereign> But, if ships do not necessarily have a specific number of guns, then how is going to be determined?
[05:59] <Sovereign> it being the number of guns that fire
[05:59] <NB3> it doesnt specifically say, but its not a big leap either
[05:59] <Envy> i think it's actually decided by the mass that fires
[05:59] <Envy> a lot of small ships have same disturbance as fewer big ones
[06:00] <Envy> or you could think of it as proportianla to guns, while guns are proportional to cost
[06:00] <Sovereign> hmm
[06:00] <Sovereign> perhaps
[06:00] <Ice_Soul> and that the guns does same dmg..
[06:00] <NB3> in which case, you could just say it was directly proportional to cost
[06:01] <NB3> which saying that larger ships cap more
[06:01] <NB3> is a reasonable assumption
[06:01] <NB3> 1FI = probably wont cap a roid. 1 BS - might cap 2 or 3 roids, maybe more
[06:01] <Ice_Soul> how about destroying structures?
[06:01] * Envy gets that idea
[06:02] <Sovereign> hmm
[06:02] <NB3> well, imagine
[06:02] <NB3> a fighter firing on a planet wont do much damange
[06:02] <NB3> a battleship though...
[06:02] <Sovereign> hmm, i wonder if the maximum roid capture is initially determined by attackers and defender's networth and/or score
[06:03] <Sovereign> from there, the disturbance reduces that maximum
[06:03] <Envy> value
[06:03] <Ice_Soul> nb3.. but how about the special siege ship??
[06:03] <Envy> all such things are determined by value
[06:03] <NB3> the special siege ship is the same
[06:03] <Sovereign> so, if you had high disturbance (80%) of ships being fired at, then cap is 80% of maximum
[06:03] <NB3> the zik siege ship is a FI
[06:03] <Sovereign> Envy: rightio then
[06:04] <Envy> shouldn't it be 20% ?
[06:04] <Envy> more disturbance, less cap
[06:04] <Sovereign> yes, i ment 80%
[06:04] <Sovereign> *20%
[06:04] <Sovereign> *20%
[06:04] <Sovereign> like, minus 80%
[06:04] <Envy> that seems about right
[06:04] *** Joins: Phil^
[06:04] *** P sets mode: +v Phil^
[06:04] <Envy> thats how i thought about it all the time
[06:05] <Sovereign> so is it now a question of how to determine max cap?
[06:05] <Ice_Soul> so u attack a guy that haven't been online for a while.. and doesn't have any ships or protection..
[06:05] <Envy> wait
[06:05] <Sovereign> eg, attacker and defender's networth is the same
[06:05] <Envy> thats 2 numbers
[06:05] <Sovereign> max cap = 20%
[06:05] <Ice_Soul> u could roids his ass out
[06:05] <Envy> 1 is max cap
[06:05] <Envy> the other is max transport ability of your ships
[06:05] <Envy> need not be the same
[06:05] <Sovereign> hmm
[06:05] <Sovereign> ture
[06:06] <Sovereign> *true

I hope this clears the murky waters that the Roid cap hides in a little more...

[Andy_r]

Well, I've been thinking about how you would actually code a combat system with the least possible mucking about...

Guns are a messy way of doing it, I would probably go for a simple look up table of how much damage a ship of each type does, multiply by the number of ships and get to a total damage done.

Then it's just a matter of allocating the damage to the enemy fleet, again referring to a look up table of armour.

This simulates the effects of guns (ie a battleship can kill more than one small unit at a time) without all the maths.

cap is probably just a ratio of enemy damage to fleet armour?

[NEWSBOT3]

Originally posted by Andy_r
Well, I've been thinking about how you would actually code a combat system with the least possible mucking about...

Guns are a messy way of doing it, I would probably go for a simple look up table of how much damage a ship of each type does, multiply by the number of ships and get to a total damage done.

[Ultimate Newbie]

hmm, i suggested calcing battles like that a few rounds ago - it did away with all the Agility, WPSP, Armour, Power, #guns and EMP res - would have made very simple stats.

But no, Spinner decided to rework the game to make the stats simpler :\

[dabult]

The only thing i get out of reading this, is that im happy i do read here quite often, i might catch up something usefull

[Anon]

Seems to meh the disturbance factor based on the price of the ship as well as the class of the ship for example lets give fi a Price of 1 and +1 cause its a FI this is if saying you buy FI for exactually 1 and the others for the exact other #'s i know PA prices arnt all proportioned like this
so they go as followed
FI=1 + 1
FR=2 + 2
CR=3 + 3
BS=4 + 4

thats you disturbance factor i dare to even say race gets a +1 2 3 or 4 for the race but thats just a guess

Now for the How much it takes to disturb comes into play again based on price and Class

FI=1 + 1
FR= 2 + 2
CR= 3 + 3
BS= 4 + 4

Again i think Race has something to do here +1 2 3 or 4

So say my target has 50 BS that shoot at FI 50x8=400 that the disturbace factor now i have to send 200x2=400 that means atleast 200 FI before i can even start to cap roids im not syaing all those 200 fi are gonna get killed but they are gonna beh disturbed

If this is making any Sence to anyone pls post a replys hehe

[Anon]

I had a brain storm
Horrible, Poor, Average, Decent, Good, Excellent
all get a value
Horrible = 1
Poor = 2
Average = 3
Decent =4
Good = 5
Excellent = 6

now when determining disturbance factor you multiply the cost of the ship times what stat it has on the stats page so the Sirtalis for example costs is 3000 x 3 for average armour = 9000 x that by the # of ships in this case we will use 100 = 900000 ok

Now the terran ship Cerberus costs 57000 x 3 for average dmg = 171,000 ok now to disturb 100 Sirtalis 900000/171,000 =
roughly 5.2 weh will say 6 for good measure so it take 6 Cerberus to disturb 100 sirtalis

Now before anyone is like no way does 6 Cerberus disturb 100 Sirtalis i dont know the exact # the so called stats hold