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Unread 29 Feb 2008, 17:48   #51
Hebdomad
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Re: Lib Dems

Without government, what makes you think people will free associate in the way you'd prefer?

Put another way, according to the Guardian's expose of an internal BNP document, they are waiting for a crisis which will allow them to rally the disillusioned around their solution. Do you think they'd gain some traction come the disintegration of government?

I like the idea of anarchy but I cannot see how without a huge amount of social change that it would ever result in anything but vigilantism. So, again, the question is how to achieve social change.

Of course the most British people are utterly sick of their government, yet I don't think Britain is at a stage where it is yearning for the disintegration of government to allow it to get on with things. I'd point at the poor state of the education system to support my point.

Therefore the British political system needs room to evolve (perhaps to anarchy, i don't know) and FPP does not allow that.
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Unread 29 Feb 2008, 18:39   #52
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Anarchy.
As much as I'm a fan of anarchy in the UK I don't really think it'll come about any time even vaguely soon unless it's in a completely catastrophic fashion due to like nuclear war or some other charming outside context problem.



(Really I'm just referencing popular culture phrases here )
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Unread 29 Feb 2008, 19:12   #53
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Re: Lib Dems

I think PR is a relatively minor aspect but it serves as an enabler for change. That other countries haven't used it that well doesn't necessarily mean the UK would also fail to utilise it. PR Is something that can realistically be campaigned for and relatively easily implemented. Wide-scale socio-economic changes are going to be much harder to accomplish. Now that they're much harder doesn't mean we should not even bother in the attempt but I don't think that they're achievable unless people start thinking about government and society in an entirely different way. When minor parties actually get a genuine political voice through increased representation in the houses of parliament I believe this will be a start.

One of the most important facets is that people start to believe that change is actually possible. That the shift isn't actually massive is relatively negligible.
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Unread 4 Mar 2008, 18:17   #54
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
In terms of the way people associate, your question is faulty.
Perhaps if you're kind enough and you have enough free time you could fix my question. When it looks like the correct question then you could answer that. I'm not sure of my retort as yet, but as I'm quite busy at work may I suggest you construct that, too?
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 01:08   #55
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Re: Lib Dems

But you can define what that freedom constitutes.
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 01:52   #56
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
But you can define what that freedom constitutes.
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Unread 5 Mar 2008, 10:58   #57
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well you are asking me how I would like people to be free. By definition one man cannot dictate the freedom of everyone else.
That wasn't the question. It was better enunciated in the second paragraph.
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Unread 6 Mar 2008, 20:22   #58
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
As much as I'm a fan of anarchy in the UK I don't really think it'll come about any time even vaguely soon unless it's in a completely catastrophic fashion due to like nuclear war or some other charming outside context problem.



(Really I'm just referencing popular culture phrases here )
iirc i think i remember reading about a particularly rabid stalinist party here in britain who openly welcomed the prospect of global nuclear war because they saw it as the best opportunity of bringing on the revolution. you've simply got to respect that kind of dedication to the cause.
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 15:52   #59
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Re: Lib Dems

The only revolution would be Jesus.

In his grave!
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 15:53   #60
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Re: Lib Dems

Will there be a second coming of Jesus if we've all died in a nuclear war?
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 01:07   #61
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Will there be a second coming of Jesus if we've all died in a nuclear war?
the concept of a second coming isn't doctrinally sound
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 06:23   #62
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
the concept of a second coming isn't doctrinally sound
But the act of homosexuality as immoral is doctrine.

Why let fact get in the way of a good story?
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 09:28   #63
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Re: Lib Dems

All Systems Go, surely you should be asking a different question.
Why the Liberal Democrats can win local elections but in the past 40 or so years have managed to fail miserably in to get anywhere near enough support to win a general election.
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Unread 9 Mar 2008, 18:15   #64
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Re: Lib Dems

The Liberal Democrats entrenched their position as the insignificant party by abstaining from the Lisbon Treaty debate last week.

There was a joke on Question Time I think it was where the commedian panelist said roughly - that the Lib Dems coming off the worst from all three parties is like Ringo Star being the biggest loser in the *Heather / Paul McCartney divorce! Its a fair point, given that they are supposed to be the most Pro-European mainstream party in the UK, yet nearly 25% of their Mp's defied the party whip.

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Unread 9 Mar 2008, 18:41   #65
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by GJN
The Liberal Democrats entrenched their position as the insignificant party by abstaining from the Lisbon Treaty debate last week.

There was a joke on Question Time I think it was where the commedian panelist said roughly - that the Lib Dems coming off the worst from all three parties is like Ringo Star being the biggest loser in the Stella / Paul McCartney divorce! Its a fair point, given that they are supposed to be the most Pro-European mainstream party in the UK, yet nearly 25% of their Mp's defied the party whip.
go write for the daily mail
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Unread 9 Mar 2008, 18:51   #66
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Re: Lib Dems

Why would I go and write for the Daily Mail?

All I was saying is that they are insignificant because they do silly things such as abstaining in important parliamentary votes. I dont see how that is uber right wing which you seem to be implying.
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Unread 9 Mar 2008, 19:12   #67
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by GJN
Why would I go and write for the Daily Mail?

All I was saying is that they are insignificant because they do silly things such as abstaining in important parliamentary votes. I dont see how that is uber right wing which you seem to be implying.
I was implying that you write posts in a tabloid style. That you make irrational statements of opinion and attempt to pass them off as fact. That not only are your facts wrong but they are so widely off the mark that you mimic the daily mail.

Thus, rather kindly for me, I attempted to help you find your calling in life.

Any reader who wishes to think and not join GJN in displaying the worst characteristics of an idiot with an ego might want to cast their minds to the likely result of the next election.
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Unread 9 Mar 2008, 19:28   #68
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Re: Lib Dems

The biggest winner in a Stella/ Paul McCartney divorce would be genetic diversity and I can't immediately think of any losers.
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Unread 9 Mar 2008, 23:21   #69
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
The biggest winner in a Stella/ Paul McCartney divorce would be genetic diversity and I can't immediately think of any losers.
Everyone who didn't give a shit and is accidently exposed to the needless reporting of it.

Edit: Are you implying that Paul is Stella's father?
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Unread 9 Mar 2008, 23:36   #70
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Everyone who didn't give a shit and is accidently exposed to the needless reporting of it.

Edit: Are you implying that Paul is Stella's father?
no he's trying to show how clever he is by quoting pop culture

he may as well have posted spice girl lyrics.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 05:16   #71
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Everyone who didn't give a shit and is accidently exposed to the needless reporting of it.

Edit: Are you implying that Paul is Stella's father?
yeah, that was the crux of it.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 17:14   #72
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Edit: Are you implying that Paul is Stella's father?
You sound shocked. Have I missed some huge rumour where he isn't her father?
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 19:46   #73
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Re: Lib Dems

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Unread 11 Mar 2008, 11:58   #74
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Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Who's the one with the missing leg?
Heather Mills?
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Unread 11 Mar 2008, 13:45   #75
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Exclamation Re: Lib Dems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Stirring stuff
That would be pretty interesting to see.

Quote:
Nick Clegg says he will never join a Labour or Tory cabinet, but will push instead for an "intensely violent revolution, aimed at destroying the Bourgeoisie as a class".

Lib Dem leaders have not traditionally made destructive social upheval the price of a deal with other parties in the event of a hung parliament.

But in his first speech as leader, Mr Clegg demanded a shake-up of the whole social system.

He also flagged up the possibility of the Lib Dems offering class war at the next general election.

"If we want a better Britain, with opportunity for everyone, we've got to destroy global capitalism."

"Abolishing the entire basis for credit, finance and means of exchange would be a great start."

"But we must never stop thinking about eliminating the government, financiers, princes, and the entire structure of the Bourgeois state, either."

The party is apparently considering detonating the homes of the super rich.

Mr Clegg received a one hundred and forty-minute standing ovation for his speech at the party's spring conference in Stepney.

He spoke for more than two days without notes, overcoming a few initial signs of paranoid nervous breakdown to deliver an impassioned plea for political change.

He told delegates electoral reform was "a Bourgeois distraction" and he wanted to "redesign the entire structure of human economic relations."

The speech was being sold as an attempt to move on from a damaging row over what colour tractors will be in the new Utopia, which saw the resignation last week of three frontbenchers.

Mr Clegg joked that if the party had wanted to rebel in the past they would have "had to borrow a few Imperialist lackeys."

But he made no further mention of the tractor debate, focusing instead on portraying the Lib Dems as an "violent, revolutionary" force that can smash Capitalism.

He called for a new crackdown on "stooges and wreckers" - with executions for MPs who break the rules.

And he vowed to fight for an "end to big-money finance" - proposing a £1 limit on everything.

"Am I interested in building a new type of Society? Yes. "

"Based on the rule of the dictatorship of the proletariat? Yes."

"A new system, that empowers people, not running-dog Imperialist elites? Yes.

"We want a new, more Socialist Britain."

Aides refused to be drawn on the precise details of the new Socialist "dictatorship" Mr Clegg wanted.

But they said the party was no longer interested in a "gradualist revisionism" - but wanted a party convention to examine how best to destroy Capitalism from the ground up.

Mr Clegg also focused on pig iron production and anti-Fascist action in his speech - issues he believes matter more to ordinary voters than Health and Crime.

He also pledged to build a "popular revolutionary movement" with stricter internal discipline and a stronger Central Committee.

In his speech, Mr Clegg mounted a sustained attack on his political opponents.

"Alistair Darling stole a policy from the Tories and announced an inheritance tax cut that will agrandise the richest 6% of people, at the expense of the literal blood and ashes of millions of starving orphans and widows."

"And do you know where they found the money?

"If the reports are true, they boiled down the flesh of grandmothers."

"Bread indecently taken from the poorest children and given to the fatest kulaks, no questions asked. "

He also attacked the Conservatives, saying Tory leader David Cameron was peddling "vacuous Bourgeois nonsense."

And he accused shadow chancellor George Osborne of "having more contradictions than Axelrod" in his policy on Northern Rock.

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