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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 07:17   #1
Makhil
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tackling def whores

My definition of def whores: planets building only a certain type of ships, no pods, with the only purpose of defending (ally, gal, friends).
The game suffers from these specialized planets: def whores, cov oppers, scanners...
To tackle the def whore problem I suggest to impose a minimum percentage of pods in the total planet's ships. If you don't reach that minimum you can't build any extra ship (apart from pods). Drastic yes, but it is time to do something.
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 08:24   #2
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
My definition of def whores: planets building only a certain type of ships, no pods, with the only purpose of defending (ally, gal, friends).
The game suffers from these specialized planets: def whores, cov oppers, scanners...
To tackle the def whore problem I suggest to impose a minimum percentage of pods in the total planet's ships. If you don't reach that minimum you can't build any extra ship (apart from pods). Drastic yes, but it is time to do something.
i suggest u sit down, read what u just typed... then rethink it.
this would hurt the "real" planets more then the scanners and cov opers... and how many defplanets have u realy seen this round?

how do u feel this would help take care of the "problem"? how would this move make it harder to be a def orientated planet, or a scanner?
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 08:27   #3
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Re: tackling def whores

My suggestion would be to tackle attack whores: planets only building ony type of roidfleet, with the only purpose of attacking (high value) other players for lots of XP. The game suffers from these specialized planets.....

One of the nice things about a game is that it allows you (to some extent) to play it the way you like. Sure, i get annoyed when being attacked by some XP whore with only one specialized roidfleet, or defended by a planet only having harpies, but it is part of the game. If players enjoy playing the game that way, let them, we can't force everyone to play the exact same way, it only drives players away.
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 08:56   #4
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Re: tackling def whores

How does the game suffer from defwhores?
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 09:37   #5
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Re: tackling def whores

I am one of those def whores...

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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 09:46   #6
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
How does the game suffer from defwhores?
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 09:57   #7
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxman
i suggest u sit down, read what u just typed... then rethink it.
this would hurt the "real" planets more then the scanners and cov opers... and how many defplanets have u realy seen this round?

how do u feel this would help take care of the "problem"? how would this move make it harder to be a def orientated planet, or a scanner?
I suggest you wake up and re read what I typed : it's not against scanners or cov oppers, but against def whores... it helps because it forces them to spend some of their resources on pods, thus less on def ships (and maybe when they have pods they will decide to use them in attack, meaning they'll have 1 slot less to def with...).
I've seen far too many def planets, not only the late starters for whom I understand it is their way to contribute to their gal/ally success, but planets that are set from the start...
In a 5k planet universe I wouldn't mind, but with 1k planets (and probably less next round) it is becoming annoying that more planets choose not to play to win the game but rather try just to make others lose and support/assist their champion...

I suggest next round with no alliance and no defense outside gals.
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 10:55   #8
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
If you're blind i can't help you, i'm not Jesus.
I don't think you know how (or if at all), I think you're just annoyed someone defended against you. Prove me wrong.
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 10:59   #9
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Re: tackling def whores

hey Hut heres a novel suggestion that would really stick it to those defending bastards. remove the ability to defend from the game entirely.

See how you like that, you bunch of selfless a'holes
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 11:15   #10
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
I suggest you wake up and re read what I typed : it's not against scanners or cov oppers, but against def whores... it helps because it forces them to spend some of their resources on pods, thus less on def ships (and maybe when they have pods they will decide to use them in attack, meaning they'll have 1 slot less to def with...).
I've seen far too many def planets, not only the late starters for whom I understand it is their way to contribute to their gal/ally success, but planets that are set from the start...
In a 5k planet universe I wouldn't mind, but with 1k planets (and probably less next round) it is becoming annoying that more planets choose not to play to win the game but rather try just to make others lose and support/assist their champion...

I suggest next round with no alliance and no defense outside gals.
¨

so u want to imput some silly 30% of the fleet must be pods cause thats fair! after all some evil planet defended against me and i cant handle that rule?


atm 1/75 of my fleet is pods? do that make me a defplanet? how on EARTH without totaly redoing all the stats, and how capping work, would u make this decent/balanced for the game?
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 13:42   #11
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Re: tackling def whores

Seriously man, your last two suggestions are horrible.
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 14:03   #12
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Re: tackling def whores

Pretty much.
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 14:33   #13
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Re: tackling def whores

the best way to tackle defwhores is to make them overcommit, and then fleetcatch them on their way back. Not through any limitations on fleet composition.
Incidently if they are building a fleet for the sole purpose of helping another, they might be running foul of support planet rules and its worth reporting them for further investigation
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 14:36   #14
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Incidently if they are building a fleet for the sole purpose of helping another, they might be running foul of support planet rules and its worth reporting them for further investigation
Only if they're OOGOOA, and other things. Dont stop you reporting them ofc though.
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 14:39   #15
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Only if they're OOGOOA, and other things. Dont stop you reporting them ofc though.
Thats what i was getting at - let the multihunters do the investigating of them and just give them a pointer at someone to look at
Otherwise, fleetcatch them
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 14:42   #16
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Re: tackling def whores

Indeed, the 'best' way is to fleetcatch them.

Actually

Disregard that. Dont ever fleetcatch a defh0e. We feel depressed enough as it is as we can never attack, let alone loosing all our ships in the process
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Unread 5 Oct 2007, 15:00   #17
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
I suggest you wake up and re read what I typed : it's not against scanners or cov oppers, but against def whores... it helps because it forces them to spend some of their resources on pods, thus less on def ships (and maybe when they have pods they will decide to use them in attack, meaning they'll have 1 slot less to def with...).
I've seen far too many def planets, not only the late starters for whom I understand it is their way to contribute to their gal/ally success, but planets that are set from the start...
In a 5k planet universe I wouldn't mind, but with 1k planets (and probably less next round) it is becoming annoying that more planets choose not to play to win the game but rather try just to make others lose and support/assist their champion...

I suggest next round with no alliance and no defense outside gals.
It might not come as a big surprise that I entirely disagree with you on this one. Defwhores are okay as long as they only defend their gal, or their alliance and are in said alliance's tag. To refuse a player to play defense for his galaxy/alliance would just remove yet another bunch of players from the game instead of adding to it.
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Unread 6 Oct 2007, 08:31   #18
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
It might not come as a big surprise that I entirely disagree with you on this one. Defwhores are okay as long as they only defend their gal, or their alliance and are in said alliance's tag. To refuse a player to play defense for his galaxy/alliance would just remove yet another bunch of players from the game instead of adding to it.
I believe you're completely wrong. What drives people out of this game is the feeling they can't compete fairly without a scanner, a cov opper and a couple of def whores to support them (in addition to a good alliance).

It's not about skills, it's all about support, and the best way to get it without breaking the rules...
People pay for others to specialize in these tasks in exchange for their full support, that's how it is... that's not the kind of game I like, I'm probably not the only one.
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Unread 6 Oct 2007, 08:36   #19
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Seriously man, your last two suggestions are horrible.
I agree, but that shows how the game itself is heading the wrong way.
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Unread 12 Oct 2007, 14:37   #20
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I am one of those def whores...

and that is exactly where the game suffers... a player like you being a defwhore... how can this be!!! let's ban the possibility to send def completely!
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Unread 12 Oct 2007, 18:33   #21
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Re: tackling def whores

oi im defwhore!

dont stop my only ability!
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 10:49   #22
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Re: tackling def whores

I have no problem whatsoever with def whores per se.
The problem for me comes when they are operated by cheats.

I would like to see it made impossible (within the game mechanics) to defend out of alliance or galaxy, the same way its impossible to attack in galaxy or in alliance.

If someone then wants to take one of the allocated slots in an alliance, and spend the entire round building vipers, then good luck to them.

As for defending in cluster, lets remove that as well, otherwise some "opportunistic" individuals will just get their mothers, fathers, brothers, cousins and other out of gal / out of tag friends (all of course totally legit) to exile until they end up in the "right cluster".
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Unread 23 Oct 2007, 00:13   #23
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_CRAB
I would like to see it made impossible (within the game mechanics) to defend out of alliance or galaxy, the same way its impossible to attack in galaxy or in alliance.
Why should people be forced to be part of an alliance?
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Unread 23 Oct 2007, 08:45   #24
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
My definition of def whores: planets building only a certain type of ships, no pods, with the only purpose of defending (ally, gal, friends).
The game suffers from these specialized planets: def whores, cov oppers, scanners...
To tackle the def whore problem I suggest to impose a minimum percentage of pods in the total planet's ships. If you don't reach that minimum you can't build any extra ship (apart from pods). Drastic yes, but it is time to do something.

I have two problems with your post.
1. What stops defwhores from building say 5% pods and the rest of their fleet the assigned deffleet? Does that 5% change in deffleet really make any difference? You are just making them build pods they never use

2. Is your definition of a defplanet correct? Are there defplanets that never attack? If there are then they will fall behind pretty quickly on the planets they try to defend against and their fleets will be useless by tick 300. After all without attacking they get stuck at 300 roids max assuming they dont get roided.
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Unread 23 Oct 2007, 08:45   #25
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Why should people be forced to be part of an alliance?
They can be part of a galaxy aswell?
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Unread 23 Oct 2007, 15:18   #26
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Why should people be forced to be part of an alliance?
As Rikard pointed out, they don't have to.

If they don't want to be part of an alliance, or defend in galaxy, they are of course welcome to attack.

Personally speaking, unless the individual is a f**king cheat, I would imagine a player with no alliance would have a hell of a lot more fun using their slots for attacking, rather than defending outside their gal anyway...
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Unread 23 Oct 2007, 23:12   #27
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Re: tackling def whores

You're completely missing the point.


Why should we assume that a player wants to be allied with his friends? Just look at the gosu players, they don't all join the same alliances but still cross-defend each other. There's no decent reason why this is a bad thing for Planetarion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikard
Personally speaking, unless the individual is a f**king cheat, I would imagine a player with no alliance would have a hell of a lot more fun using their slots for attacking, rather than defending outside their gal anyway...
Ok well that's your choice - why should you make that choice for others?
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 20:34   #28
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Re: tackling def whores

furball, firstly I am not Rikard.

Secondly, I have no problem with gosu members defending each other.
I just personally believe that it should be done either within the framework of an alliance or, within galaxies.

I think you are missing the point: "Why should we assume that a player wants to be allied with his friends?"
Why do you continually allude to this? Where have I ever made such an assumption?

I have played this game since round 4, and in every single round I have played, friends have also played and have not been in my alliance, am I really unusual in having only defended them when they happened to be in my galaxy?

I honestly believe (possibly wrongly) that the vast majority of out of gal, out of alliance defense is not 100% honest, and I certainly think that it would be a very interesting experiment to eliminate it for a few round.

Don't the honest alliances who get accused time and time again of only achieving what they have, as a result of loads of VNC activated support planets, with fleets composed of nothing but one ship type, deserve to be vindicated?
Perhaps more importantly, those players in alliances, or playing with friends in galaxies, who cannot be as active as they like, but nevertheless want to assist their friends by going the "def whore" route, need not suffer accusations that they are cheats, or multis.

I think that simply experimenting with this idea for a round or two, would go a long way to ending these accusations, and would really inconvenience very few honest players. I also think it would be much more effective than the current means of dealing with support planets.

Last edited by HRH_H_Crab; 24 Oct 2007 at 20:48.
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Unread 24 Oct 2007, 21:39   #29
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
The game suffers from these specialized planets: def whores, cov oppers, scanners....
You think the game suffers from scanners?

All of these planets are exactly whats going to happen in a game like this, as long as there is a need for these 3 things, there will be a player willing to specialize in it.

I personally dont have a problem with these planets, I have been saved more than once by some resident alliance defwhore, and on the same token, I have been forced to recall because of them more than once.

We all have different strategies and styles when it comes to playing this game, and trying to take that away from certain ones of us just takes away from the experience of the game when we should be trying to add to it.
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 02:26   #30
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubert Samson
All of these planets are exactly whats going to happen in a game like this, as long as there is a need for these 3 things, there will be a player willing to specialize in it.
yeah, especially when a third party pays for their account... Anyway I wouldn't mind if we had a universe of 5k planets, but with our current shrinking universe, each scanner, cov opper, def whore, is 1 less target for the people who want to play the game as it was intended "attack others to get roids".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubert Samson
You think the game suffers from scanners?
Yes, the best part of a PA round is when you can't get all the scans you needand have to take risk, play mind games, be a bit more creative in your attacks... that part would last longer if there was no professional scanners.
If we reach the point where every player can get the scan he needs (through ally or #transcendancy) what is the point of having scans the way it is ?
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 09:02   #31
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Re: tackling def whores

If I hear someone utter the words "the way it was supposed to be played" or "the game as it was intended" one more time, I'm going to hang myself.
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 09:14   #32
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
"the way it was supposed to be played" + "the game as it was intended"
no need to thank me mz - you know i'm doing you a favour
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 11:17   #33
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Anyway I wouldn't mind if we had a universe of 5k planets, but with our current shrinking universe, each scanner, cov opper, def whore, is 1 less target for the people who want to play the game as it was intended "attack others to get roids".
See, I really have no problem with scanners or covert oppers.

Scanners are obviously needed, and being a decent scanner is such a pain in the arse, that people that do so, should be respected.

As for covert ops, its so very very easy to make yourself immune, that I don't see it as a problem. Its also (mainly due to insane amounts of whining) much harder to be a real irritant as a covert opper than it was a few rounds back when I played as a covert ops planet. I don't think I'd want to do it now that we have population controls, but again, I respect those like Gothic who keep at it, the guy obviously has a lot of fun, why limit it?

And as I stated before, if someone really wants to help their alliance by being a def whore, and does so legitimately, why have a go at him or her?

Its just that when you attack a planet and there is loads of oogooa defense, you begin to wonder whether others are really playing fairly. That, as I see it, is the real problem with most def whores.

Its not that they make bad targets or that they are somehow contrary to the spirit of the game.
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 19:04   #34
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Re: tackling def whores

its ok, hut has always been one of those terrible players we have in todays pa world, hoping to achieve something, yet never quite getting there, dont worry guys its all gravy
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 15:31   #35
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Re: tackling def whores

sweet! we can have def ships + some pods we were required to build but don't use! sign me up!
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Unread 5 Nov 2007, 06:41   #36
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
its ok, hut has always been one of those terrible players we have in todays pa world, hoping to achieve something, yet never quite getting there, dont worry guys its all gravy
How gracious of you... who are you btw, I don't remember playing a round with you, yet you seem to know me so well.

I propose ideas, some may be good (at least they get implemented), some are bad, some are terrible, i accept all the critics about the suggestions i make, but not the kind of personal comments you indulge into, especially when you wouldn't repeat them face to face.
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Unread 6 Nov 2007, 12:02   #37
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Re: tackling def whores

oogooa defence shouldn't be banned. There are a couple of valid reasons for it. Like battle groups who def each other besides their normal gal/ally defense, Cluster defense (rare, yes. but valid), etc.

Imho the current 'support rule' covers the cases in which it is inappropriate. For instance a planet that solely defends a certain alliance, planet or galaxy oogooa falls under the support rule and can be closed.

Maybe (if oogaas def really is getting out hand) - instead of changing rules - the enforcement of this rule should be improved.



Oh and guys stop the flaming and for heavens sake don't seriously respond to (what you consider) flames.
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Unread 6 Nov 2007, 17:38   #38
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Re: tackling def whores

in fairness for 3 rounds I've been irc inactive because my work has it blocked. i still play PA on free accounts and only bother researching the hulls line. i have sent about 80+ ingal def fleets every round, and plan to do it again this round.

i dont do favoritism, i just defend whoever i can help at the time. i am in effect a galaxy support planet, as i play to help others. is that wrong? and do i deserve to be closed just because i notice 'if i build a bunch of scorpions i can really help my galaxy'?
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Unread 6 Nov 2007, 23:28   #39
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Re: tackling def whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
How gracious of you... who are you btw, I don't remember playing a round with you, yet you seem to know me so well.

I propose ideas, some may be good (at least they get implemented), some are bad, some are terrible, i accept all the critics about the suggestions i make, but not the kind of personal comments you indulge into, especially when you wouldn't repeat them face to face.
we've fortunately never played together, although i do remember you suiciding your fleet constantly. I am pretty sure i would repeat them aswell, why wouldnt I?
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Unread 7 Nov 2007, 10:57   #40
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Re: tackling def whores

Suiciding my fleet constantly... not really my style (unless you talk about Beta, in that case yes... but it's just testing). I honestly think you don't know me and you make up whatever you can.
Your comments were out of place, you could just aknowledge it instead of trying hard to create some justifications.
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Unread 7 Nov 2007, 11:55   #41
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Re: tackling def whores

Getting a bit off subject arent we?

oh well, here goes my belated response...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
yeah, especially when a third party pays for their account... Anyway I wouldn't mind if we had a universe of 5k planets, but with our current shrinking universe, each scanner, cov opper, def whore, is 1 less target for the people who want to play the game as it was intended "attack others to get roids".
It isnt 1 less target, def whores and scanners have to have asteroids just like the rest of us so that they can build those ships, or do those scans. Of course I am talking about the scanners out of any alliance tag, and the ones intag is a different point and those are the ones that, because the alliance pays for the scans, they can play relatively normally, I have seen quite a few scanners finish decently throughout the rounds. Thus, clearly implying that they are in fact attacking and defending.

As for cov op planets, they are a different story completely, though, because of the growing difficulty of successfully covert opping a planet to the ground, they are becoming a bit of a dying race.

One last point on this, def whores also generally specialize in just 1 ship type, last round I found several cathaar specializing in only Scorpions, or only Scarabs, and many of them had a decent amount of roids, their inability to stop my attacking fleets made them easy targets for my fighters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
Yes, the best part of a PA round is when you can't get all the scans you needand have to take risk, play mind games, be a bit more creative in your attacks... that part would last longer if there was no professional scanners.
If we reach the point where every player can get the scan he needs (through ally or #transcendancy) what is the point of having scans the way it is ?
To be honest, I havent had a round where I couldnt get the scans I needed since round 5, though at that point I really couldnt have cared less. The only exception being when, at the beginning of the round, no one can really see which ships a xandathrii opponent has.


...Im pretty sure I missed a point or two that I was intending to address, but I have just run out of steam and am very tired.
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