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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 01:08   #1
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After reading an article and watching a video

I decided to write the following. Yes I know I need a blog. However I don't own one and nor do I wish to own one at the present time. However I am hoping what I am about to write can form some part of a discussion. GD is back baby and us intellects (lolz pig called himself an intellect) surely need something to discuss the nights away.

It seems to me that, in life, we are like pebbles at the bottom of a mountain. We are, to the most possible extreme, insignificant to the greater scheme of things. Yet, we value our lives, our opinions, our projection of what is 'good' and 'bad'. Why? Is this ego, some sort of divine spirit, evolutionary responses to exist efficiently?

Now, before you stop reading, I'm not going to lambast, pose and counter-pose previous philosophers work like an essay, to do so would be boring, especially for a thread. What follows is a series of my thoughts on the nature of mind, spirt and morality, largely influenced by an article I read in The Economist and a philosopher I watched a from a video.

It would appear rational, at first, to arrive at some sort of mechanism to derive 'goods' and 'bads', a priori, from the mind, to spin a whole system of morals from the intellect. You 'just know' almost intuitively murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, starting from a 'golden rule', we can arrive to many equally valid moral statements.

Why is this so? Why has so much of philosophy been largely dominated by this sort of system? At first, it seemed like a complicated problem to me. So many different Philosophers, so many different theories. All with one common problem, a persistent problem of proof and consistency of the theory.

But, after a one of my macro-economic lectures it seemed that it was only natural as humans for this to be our 'initial' response. To try to derive some system of things seems nice, fluffy, a way of coping with the problem.

Is this a fair representation of the world? No, it cannot be. A Philosophical theory is just as useful as a Macro-Economic model. It helps us understand part of the picture, but only a small fraction of it, at only one point in time where the variables seem to point one particular way. The model can break down.

As Nzche said, this would be 'the congenial mistake of philosophers', to assume man today as he is, and always will be, the same. A theory of morality spun today, from the intellect, is only really useful for todays man, but not for tomorrows.

Likewise, we see that evolutionary theory would at least suggest that physical aspects of biological creatures change in response to the environment, would it not be reasonable to assume the mind can too? Perhaps the mind is a working and changing mechanism.

The implications of this are numerous, but the one I would like to tackle first is, how does one arrive at any truth about our sense, experience of, morality, if it's only a temporary one, a knowledge extrapolated by our mechanistic brain, without 'dis-regarding' morality.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 01:12   #2
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

I thought this was going to be about racism in the Celebrity Big Brother House.*


I might make a better post at a later date, but at the moment this can neither be confirmed nor denied.**


**these are my favourite posting accessories atm.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 01:16   #3
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

I hate it when someone makes a long post, and although you want to add something to the discussion you just can't be arsed. It sounds stupid but you just can't be bothered. You somehow trick yourself into thinking that you will make this great contribution, but it never happens. Although it might.*



*This isn't a dig at you All Systems Go, it is honestly how I often feel when someone posts something
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 01:26   #4
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
The implications of this are numerous, but the one I would like to tackle first is, how does one arrive at any truth about our sense, experience of, morality, if it's only a temporary one, a knowledge extrapolated by our mechanistic brain, without 'dis-regarding' morality.
Our personal morality is determined by a number of things, but morality throughout history has been influenced heavily by our biology. If we had evolved into some kind of collective hive mind then we would not necessarily have a morality based on individual actions, free will, etc.

If however you're not interested in the root of morality then you could simply say that a moral system simply acts as a set of mutually beneficial rules.

This isn't a very good answer but it's late, I'll try again in the morning.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 02:32   #5
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

Morality is formed thrpugh experiance. this can be through information given by tv or books. It can be social or family pressures or pressure from anyone in a position of presumed authority (particularly in early life) that can impress on you the ideas of morality. Often these ideas are tainted and the only way to form a coherent morality is to start at the beginning and work your way up.

the major problem with this is then a 'do as I say, not as I do' situation can occur where doing (or not doing) what your logically constructed moral code says should be done. For example, you may agree with euthinasia, but find it virtually impossible to actively end someones life. this may also clash with other areas of your new moral code such as 'do not kill'.

there are a lot of questions in your post and I'm not really understand what the main point* is but I think morality is part genetic, largely your enviroment whilst growing up but mostly on your own thoughts. this varies wildly though when you are considering someone who thinks about these issues a lot and someone who doesn't really bother.



*this will soon become ubundantly clear when I make my stupidly long, waffly post which I wrote whilst trying to answer this question, but which superbly fails to even touch upon it after the first few lines.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 02:53   #6
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

How i perceive morality is the following:

First of all we are selfish beings, so people give themselves first priority on most issues, unless they can stroke their own ego with a noble gestures

We tend to treat people like how we wish to be treated, seeing people with who we can identify ourselves in nasty situations is scary. How much we care decreases if we have a harder time putting ourselfs in the others shoes. One can become so distant from the others perspective that he won't even care about him. This happends for example when someone appears different, is in a situation where we won't land in or when the other is perceived as inferior.

Thus it was okay to treat a black african as a slave, unlike our fellow men
until we found out that some of them seemed 'like us', then it suddenly became wrong
People can be taught to relate more or less with certain people and how to value situations.

The rest of morality comes from fear of the consequences, which are also open to change


Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Yet, we value our lives, our opinions, our projection of what is 'good' and 'bad'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
You 'just know' almost intuitively murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, starting from a 'golden rule'
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Last edited by Alessio; 18 Jan 2007 at 03:42.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 03:46   #7
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
the major problem with this is then a 'do as I say, not as I do' situation can occur where doing (or not doing) what your logically constructed moral code says should be done. For example, you may agree with euthinasia, but find it virtually impossible to actively end someones life. this may also clash with other areas of your new moral code such as 'do not kill'.
This decreases over time. Its one thing to reach a conclusion about how you should act, but quite another to actually act that way - especially when youre trying to reject attitudes and behaviors that youve grown up with. However if you stick to your ideas for a few years youll start to internalise them and your 'gut' emotional reactions should eventually fall into line with your beliefs. The most important thing is to understand that emotions should always be subservient to rational analysis - if you intuitively find something 'wrong' then you should ask yourself why this is so, and try to alter your reaction if you find it unjustifiable.

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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 06:36   #8
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

Morality is not about what's useful. It's about how you decide to act. It's very much an agreement between people on how they act towards each other. In this sense it, of course, has no objective existence external to that which intelligent beings assign it. Your best option then for the formation of a moral system is that which is the fairest possible towards all participants. Over this point people differ but given what you are then left with is a rational problem it's not an insoluble dilemma once you agree on this point.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 09:27   #9
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

If morality and suchlike were intuitive there wouldn't be any need for laws or "society-forming" things such as the Bible, Qur'an and other religious documents since these apparently give us a social and moral framework in which, in a sense, we all share a common morality that is externally put upon on us.

I think naturally the only morality expressed to other people would be in your family unit and your tribe or village since in a natural state, these are the people you need to work with to survive and so you have a specific morality to these people, for your own reasons. Equally, in defence of your specific group, you have a different morality towards people outside of this group, since they are potentially trying to effect your existence, and the existence of those who support your life and keep you alive.

This brings up social responsibility as a corollary of morality. In a country, of which the village is essentially a microcosm, we have the same perverse morality towards "our" people, and those people who are perceived as outsiders in the group who may threaten "our" existence or way of life. Also, to preserve the way of life, you choose not to negatively effect it by killing someone you need, and by extension anyway they need.

Thus, it may be that the idea of morality comes from our need to maintain our status quo and our way of life. While this may appear innate, I don't believe it to be so; it arises out of our need or want to be able to live in comfort without being in fear of our way of life being disrupted.

etc.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 10:04   #10
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
If morality and suchlike were intuitive there wouldn't be any need for laws or "society-forming" things such as the Bible, Qur'an and other religious documents
I don't think it's such a stark dichotomy - electronics companies might hope their devices are intuitive enough to use, but they'll still supply a manual for advanced features or if there is any doubt. I don't think anyone believes morality is entirely innate (except for the lunatic fringe of the evo-psych movement) but at the same time, I don't think it's credible to assume our biology has no affect on our morality either.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:34   #11
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

There are some areas that aren't covered by the law, yet we know are immoral. People still engage in them, even though they wouldn't like it done to themselves.

A good example, I suppose, is "cheating on your significant other". Noone likes it being done to them, yet lots of people still do it. It isn't against the law, but it is against a moral law. If it became illegal to do, do you think people would do it less?

As much as we'd like to think morality dictates how we behave, a lot of it is decided by rules already in place from before we were alive. We follow them, because if we didn't, life could become awfully difficult.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:47   #12
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
There are some areas that aren't covered by the law, yet we know are immoral. People still engage in them, even though they wouldn't like it done to themselves.

A good example, I suppose, is "cheating on your significant other". Noone likes it being done to them, yet lots of people still do it. It isn't against the law, but it is against a moral law. If it became illegal to do, do you think people would do it less?
Probably in response to your last question and shut up in response to your general line of thought.

Quote:
As much as we'd like to think morality dictates how we behave, a lot of it is decided by rules already in place from before we were alive. We follow them, because if we didn't, life could become awfully difficult.
And?
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 14:06   #13
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
II don't think it's credible to assume our biology has no affect on our morality either.
If this is meant to be a scientific hypothesis then I assume it has to rule out some potential states of affairs, so what sort of moral systems do you think are completely and fundamentally incompatible with our biology?
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 15:59   #14
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Re: After reading an article and watching a video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
If this is meant to be a scientific hypothesis
It's not.

Quote:
then I assume it has to rule out some potential states of affairs, so what sort of moral systems do you think are completely and fundamentally incompatible with our biology?
A moral system which demanded people be over fifty feet tall would be a fairly obvious example.
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