Well bare with me in this post cause it will be long.
Is it right or wrong to close rabba?
That is the topic that I will try to work with here. You might agree and you might not, but nomatter what I will try to prove that I'm right when I say that rabba should not be closed or rather, rabba should be reopened.
First of all we all have to make 1 thing clear. I do not in any kind of way support cheating and I do not in any kind of way support ship farming which is the thing we are to discuss here.
We have to start somewhere and in the mass of all the info I'm to present for you here, so lets start out by defining a few things.
We are playing this game of our own interest and by our own will, but we are paying for it. The fact that we are paying for it means that we have some rights to get what we pay for and I really think we do get that... if not more, but that is not the important thing in this matter.
What is really important in this matter is that we accept to play by some rules. Some rules that we MUST follow by all means as long as we play this game. If we don't follow these rules PA HQ is in their good right to close our accounts or give warnings to the person who doesn't follow them.
Let me come up with a little example taken from the manual:
"You may not transfer or share your Account with anyone, except that if you are a parent or guardian, you may permit one child to use the Account instead of you (in which case you may not use that Account). You are only allowed to play 1 account, and you are not allowed to share your login info with anyone."
Well lets try to look at that cause basicly those lines is the ones that define what the PA community normally look at as cheating.
It says that its not allowed to give your account to another.
It says that you are only allowed to have 1 account.
And finally it says that you are not allowed to share login info with anyone which means that you are not allowed to account share as its said normally.
But where is the part about ship farming?
And maybe even more interesting where is the part about roid farming?
Hmm, I wondered about that too so I read all of the manual and NOPE....nothing there, but well lets stick to ship farming since that is what this thread is about.
So the conclusion to this is that there is absolutely NOTHING in the manual about ship farming, and therefore the closure of rabba's account doesn't have (in Danish and Norwegen its called "hjemmel") (In english I would call it something like "right to do it by the law" but I'll use “hjemmel” and just hope that ppl understand what I mean) in the manual.
But where is it then that it is stated that its not allowed?
All that I have been able to find is this:
[25-Feb] [23:49:48] <@CH> 5) Dreadnought (present) asked: Is Ship farming Illegal in r9?
[25-Feb] [23:50:00] <@Spinner> Hi Dreadnought
[25-Feb] [23:50:03] <+Dreadnought> lo
[25-Feb] [23:50:04] <+Dreadnought>
[25-Feb] [23:50:04] <@Prince> lo dready
[25-Feb] [23:50:30] <@Spinner> Yes, ship farming is illegal
[25-Feb] [23:50:34] <+Dreadnought> k
[25-Feb] [23:50:36] <+Dreadnought> neat
[25-Feb] [23:50:42] <@Spinner> But as everyone knows, it can be quite hard to proove
[25-Feb] [23:50:48] <@Spinner> prove even
[25-Feb] [23:50:56] <@Prince> but we have the great eye that is ever watchful
So it was said in a Creators hour b4 the beginning of the round.
So YES it has been said that ship farming is illegal and yes it was said in a public place so that everyone could see it.
But is that enough to make it a rule and if so is it then binding?
The answer to the first question is: Maybe!!!
The creators can more or less create rules as they want to, or can they?
That leads to the other question weather that log from creators hour is binding or not. The answer to that question is definitely NO!!! because of a lot of things.
One of the reasons for this is that not all can get on IRC and therefore they can't see what you are typing there. Then some might say that its posted on the portal and there everyone can see it and yes that is absolutely true, BUT you can’t expect everyone to read those logs and in fact you KNOW that many ppl don’t read it and therefore you can’t by any means expect everyone to know about that rule you made and therefore a rule made in a CH can NEVER be binding.
Furthermore as I said b4 there is nothing in the “rules section” in the manual(“THE LAW”) about ship farming and since the manual is the ONLY source of rules you have to live by in this game you are not bound by something said in CH or anywhere else but in the manual.
Because of this I will conclude that ship farming in PA is NOT a reason to close an account and it is in fact not even illegal. Not even roid farming is illegal. Sorry to say it but we have been following a set of rules that was actually not existing and ppl has been kicked from earlier rounds because of something that doesn’t have “hjemmel” in the law (the manual).
Since this is a paying game PA HQ MUST give ppl what they have paid for and only in case that the person who has paid is breaking the rules which are stated in the rules(the manual) he chose to live by, by signing up for this game, the creators can’t take what he has paid for away from him. In fact PA HQ not just have to reopen his account but they also have to give him back his roids, lost resources from the roids they stole from him and vultures and demeteers they have taken away from him.
Sorry to say it PA HQ, but unless you write down the rules you set and get us to agree to them (by signing up for the game) you can’t DEMAND us to live by them and you can NEVER take away what we have paid for if we chose not to live by them.
All rabba is doing here is to use one of the options that is build into the zik race and NOONE can ever blame him more than morally for that. And in fact he can only be blamed morally for it because we all were not wise enough to see this little “hole” in the set of rules.
Then some will claim that a person like rabba should have known that ship farming was “illegal” or what I will rather call not accepted and yes I might tend to agree with that but without discussing that any further let me post another log:
[22:50] <XXX> Session Start: Sat Feb 22 03:35:42 2003
[22:50] <XXX> Session Ident: Mendosa
[03:35] <XXX> is ship farming allowed ?
[03:35] <XXX> I never did it so far
[03:36] <XXX> as I thought it is illegal
[03:36] <XXX> some galmates telling it is legal
[03:36] <Mendosa> well, you can do it if you wish
[03:36] <XXX> it's a big advantage
[03:36] <Mendosa> aslong as you don't have 2 accounts
[03:36] <XXX> I don't
[03:36] <Mendosa> that is the basic rule
[03:36] <XXX> I got a slave running one
[03:36] <XXX> hehe
[03:37] <XXX> but roid farming is illegal isn't it ?
[03:37] <Mendosa> well, that is the official pa stance on it for the moment
At around those days ppl were talking about races and I talked to a lot of ppl about it being allowed to ship farm and how great an advantage it was for the zik race. So at that time many ppl thought it was allowed and then suddenly a few days after PA HQ had obviously changed their minds and ship farming was made “illegal”. The moral from this is that some ppl didn’t know that they had made it “illegal” until some m8s or something like that told it to them. This is another reason that a CH can never be used as a place to create rules.
What about the ppl who has never been on IRC, read forums and plays in a n00b gal where they don’t communicate? How can they possible know about a rule you make in CH? They can’t, and that is why you have a place where you have the rules (the manual) where ppl has to agree to them to play the game.
Let me try to put up another log:
[20:57] <Grim|afk> could I ask you a question?\par
[20:57] <Prince> sorta\par
[20:58] <Grim|> you wont like it ..hehe\par
[20:58] <Grim|> where in the useragreements does it say..you cant fleet farm???\par
[20:58] <Grim|> thats the reason for why you deleted rabba isnt it??\par
[20:58] <Grim|> legally you aint allowed to close his account...\par
[20:59] <Grim|> am I right?\par
[21:00] <Prince> check ch rules\par
[21:00] <Prince> the user agreement defers to game rules\par
[21:00] <Grim|> could you give me the url to the ch rules?\par
And well ofc. He couldn’t come up with those rules beside refer to the log where Dread asked if it was allowed or not. Then again we are back to “Can it really be true that 4k ppl has to go trough pages and pages of reading stuff on the portal just to look for rules that might be hidden here or might be hidden there???”. Ofc. It can’t be the meaning and therefore you can NEVER demand that ppl knows about such a rule and as stated earlier even if they did know you can’t delete them since they didn’t broke any of the rules they chosed to play by.
Take Special notice of this:
[21:00] <Prince> the user agreement defers to game rules\par
hmmm then I really wonder… so what he is saying there is that its only the game rules we have to go around and search for in the “nowhere” on the portal….good that I’m not a new member who has to dig in a CH from 1 year back to find out that roid farming is illegal…
[21:08] <Prince> its in message of the day\par
[21:09] <Prince> that all players see in login\par
[21:09] <Prince> To Anyone Thinking Of Farming, Remember The Great Eye Is Ever Watchful\par
[21:09] <Grim|> it says about farming....not fleet farming...\par
[21:09] <Prince> farming is both\par
So how many here actually think that the n00b in this game will think of farming as being the same as stealing? To be honest I think you have to be rather stupid to think that (sorry Prince but I really do).
That is just another example on that is simply can’t be right that they can delete rabba on the basis they are using.
[21:13] <Grim|> but to delete or close rabbas account...is to take it a little far...when you cant.. show to any rules...yeah ok...message of the day...but that again wouldnt hold up in a coart\par
[21:14] <Prince> its not a court\par
[21:14] <Prince> as i could edit user agreement\par
Well since Prince just a few minutes earlier said that game rules and user agreements are 2 totally different things then why bring those user agreements into such an answer… all he is saying there is that the “law” is the user agreements just like I have stated a lot of times in this thread. So actually what he is doing here is to talk against himself.
[21:14] <Prince> my freidns do law\par
[21:14] <Prince>
\par
[21:15] <Grim|> you can eddit users agreement now...but rabba..havnt pressed accept to the "new" user agreements\par
[21:15] <Prince> our policy and ruels can be changed at any time\par
[21:15] <Prince> see that in the agreement\par
Taken from the manual:
3. We may amend this Agreement at any time in our sole discretion. Such amendments shall be effective whenever we make the notification
available for your review.
Hehe good that I’m not a twat at reading English…look at those lines YAIKS!!!!
Well back to the point. Yes you can change the rules at any time, but why refer to the user agreements once again when he has already stated that the user agreements and the game rules are 2 different things… it seems a bit strange to me and actually it seems like he is partly admitting that PA HQ probably should have put it in the manual when they made the rule that ship farming was made illegal. And yes you should cause only at that time the rule would be effective.
A totally different thing is that I don’t think its allowed by general law to have an option in the user aggrements that says you can change the user agreements as you want at any time you want them, but I’m not sure about English law so well let that be for now. I just want the PA community to make note of that cause in fact that is some h**l of a point to agree to.
[21:16] <Grim|> yes..but then again... the users have to be notified a sertain amount of time before the change is done..and they have to be notified well...which..havnt been done\par
[21:17] <Prince> fine i'll change now\par
[21:17] <Prince> give 5 days nottife\par
And there we have it… The user agreements obviously wasn’t that different anyways since he agrees to change them now. To me this looks like HQ admits they have made a mistake and now they are going to correct if for the future.
Yes you did make a mistake and its good that you are now going to change it for the future, but you can’t delete rabba cause at the time he farmed that rule wasn’t there.
[21:18] <Prince> u kill someone\par
[21:19] <Prince> now u know its wrong\par
[21:19] <Prince> people say its wring\par
[21:19] <Prince> goverment says it wrong\par
[21:19] <Prince> so when they ot u in jail u say\par
[21:19] <Prince> "oi the law does'nt say i can't kill on a friday"\par
Well Prince now you try to look a bit more stupid than you really are. I don’t need to study much law to know that it says that its illegal to kill… the law says its illegal to kill(that is the basic rule). Then if you ask yourself if its illegal to kill at a Friday you will notice that if you do it will be a to kill and since to kill is illegal it is also illegal on a Friday.
Sorry to say it but to put up such a crap scenario is simply too stupid…even for a PA creator LOL.
But lets try to relate the idea to PA which I suppose is what you try to do just from PA to the real world:
Then the basic rule about ship farming will be: hmmm since I have already stated that a CH log can’t be used as a place to create a law, there simply isn’t any law and in that case its even allowed to ship farm at Fridays just as on the other days.
[21:27] <Prince> u tryed reading ad
[21:27] <cbk> yes
[21:27] <cbk> and?
[21:27] <Prince> and its very very very
[21:27] <Prince> 100% against him
When has that got anything to do with rules? Rules are Rules and if there are no rules about a ship farming he can’t be closed because of it. And AD should have least of all to do with it, cause if AD can now have a say in who gets closed and who doesn’t then I think I’ll spam some more there and educate a bunch of other to spam like crazy. It simply can’t be true!!!! You create the rules and ONLY you!!!
[21:30] <Prince> [18:45] <Prince> but as pa wants it by the book
[21:30] <Prince> [18:45] <Prince> by the book it goes
[21:30] <Prince> [18:45] <Rabba> ok Prince
OK then run it by the book and reopen his account!!!
[21:38] <Prince> is ship farming right or wrong
[21:39] <cbk> we'll see
[21:39] <cbk> let me put it that way
[21:39] <Prince> no
[21:39] <Prince> answer the question
[21:40] <cbk> ok then you also answer mine
[21:40] <cbk> yes it is wrong
[21:40] <cbk> but how wrong is the question
[21:40] <cbk> can you close rabba because of it?
[21:40] <cbk> he has paid for a service here
[21:41] <Prince> he paid for a service
[21:41] <Prince> and promisr to abide by USer agreent ad rules
He promised to abide by the user agreement, I will agree to that, but as I have said earlier there is nothing in the user agreements about ship farming so he didn’t promise to abide by anything about ship farming.
I’m not sure if you mean that he also promised to abide by some “added rules” by promising to abide by the user agreements, but if that is what you mean then I think you should read the user agreements once again cause I don’t see anywhere where he promises to do that.
[21:42] <cbk> I understand your point
[21:42] <cbk> but you can't close him for it
[21:42] <cbk> and you know that too
[21:43] <cbk> that was why you didn't close him in the first place
[21:43] <Prince> yes i do
[21:43] <Prince> but u must understand
[21:43] <Prince> the masses have alot of say
[21:43] <Prince> and atm they want closure
I really don’t like to post this since this might be able to hurt you Prince and since it will hurt the trust that ppl might have in me keeping everything secret that they talk to me about in PMs, but I do this for rabba and for justice.
Its pretty obvious that its not PA HQ that is closing rabba, but it’s the mass!!! And well, that is not allowed. I know you had some pressure on you from all sides Prince but I thought you were professional to do your job as the job has to be done instead of letting the masses push you, but I was obviously wrong.
Your problem with this is that its not worth anything to have “hjemmel” in the mass but only in the law so closing rabba because of the mass is not legal!!!
Well if PA HQ wants to close an account that rabba has paid for they CAN’T by any means do it with “hjemmel” in the mass just like Prince is admitting they are doing. They can ONLY do it if they have “hjemmel” in the user agreements and they can’t possibly have that since there is nothing about ship farming in the user agreement.
I think I have made my statement clear and hope that other can see what I mean by this. I don’t like that rabba has ship farmed(even though its not illegal). Its morally illegal and I stick to the moral, but I only look at this with the glasses in line with the law.
cbk