[dda]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

The profound amount of ignorance displayed in this thread makes it kind of hard to comment on what has been said before.

Hmm. Everyone else ignorant but you are about to set us straight with laser-like insight. I can hardly wait.

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

It would seem to me that prior to the events in North Korea the world was already in very serious danger from nuclear war. In addition to America and its allies virtually reversing the test-ban treaty, giving nuclear technology to India, sabotaging the possibility of a diplomatic settlement with Iran and North Korea (mainly the US),

Wonderful. The US is once again the prime cause of any problem in the world. Please explain how the US "sabotaged the possibility of a diplomatic settlement with Iran and North Korea." We negotiated diplomaticly with the N. Koreans under the Clinton administration and we gave them quite a few things and they promised us they wouldn't move toward a nuclear weapon. Clearly they didn't precisely comply with their part of the bargain. Now the US prudently says it will negotiate but only as part of a multi-lateral group. This is hardly sabatoge. It seems to be realistic to require China, the government which is propping N. Korea up, to be part of the talks at a minimum because nothing is going to be done without their approval any way. To move to bi-lateral talks in response to threats would hardly set a proper tone likely to move the N. Koreans toward peace. North Korea saying that it will consider any kind of sanctions against them as an act of war is hardly the most diplomatic position that a country could take.

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

and creating a precedent for only voluntarily invading countries with little or no means to defend themselves

Please put this in English for me. Are we talking about Iraq? Afghanistan? Kosovo? Somalia? Grenada?

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

it is clear that whilst we wring our hands and talk about these maniacs in far-flung countries we perhaps shouldn't cover ourselves in glory for sane and rational planning for the survival of the species.

Yes, of course. I always foget that all of the problems in the world are cause by the US and Western Europe. My white guilt sometimes abates to the point that I forget about how truely horrible we are.

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

We can blame Bush, or the multi-national corporations or the Russians, the Chinese and perhaps even the poor bastards in North Korea for this chain of events

We could also blame liberal policies, the nanny state and press spinners for this chain of events. However, that wouldn't necessarily be correct. The blame for this must fall on the shoulders of the leadership of North Korea. North Korea has chosen to spend all of its meagre resources on its military and nothing on its people. When money or goods are given (yes, given) to the North Korean leadership squanders it on themselves and on the military. Who do they think is going to invade them? The US? South Korea? Japan, again? China isn't going to allow anyone to move into the northern part of the Korean Peninsula.

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

, but ultimately we only have ourselves to blame for not doing more to stop proliferation in our own countries, for not doing enough to prevent conflict and oppression in the developing world and thus making it more likely that if it wasn't North Korea it would be someone else looking for a way to fight back.

I reiterate, please pass the pie.

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

So what can we do in such a situation? I don't think more military action is the answer, I don't see how military action in the past has decreased the likelyhood of further war, ultimately the fighting has to stop.

All we are saying is give peace a chance. I remember the tune.

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Why not reach out to the North Korean people and offer them a choice, smother them in money and wealth and give them something to lose by indulging in such a war, ultimately it would probably be cheaper than Nodrog's alternative.

There is no way to give anything to a people without going through their government. Kim Jong Il and his folks already have more wealth than all but the wealthiest folks in the world. However, it is unlikely that they would pass on the good thing to their people. They haven't in the past. Their primary worry IS their people. They fear their own people muich more than they do the rest of us, however guilty we might be for pushing them to these extremes.

I feel so ashamed of us.