[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Achilles

I agree completely, as stated in my OP on this page, that the nation state paradigm is wholly outdated. It's absolutely useless and serves only to further alienation and hatred as is, as you correctly stated, evidenced by events in the middle-east at the moment. Unfortunately I do not have another workable, implementable model handy. Do you?

I read a good book on this called, amusingly enough, The Shield of Achilles. While I don't agree with some of of what it contains it's a very good analysis of the development of states and brings a number of interesting viewpoints on the future of states at large.

My whole point is that we live in a world of many flaws and great injustice. Some wish to fight this injustice, irrespective on the cost imposed on them or anyone else. I do not believe this is the way to bring about the social change you talk about.

Large-scale peaceful social change requires an open-minded populace and a willing government. Whatever about the first Israel has never had the second even in its most moderate days.

For change such as this to occur there must be peace. For any peace to last there must be sacrifice. The Palestinians will ultimately have to settle for less as they cannot take more. This is grossly unfair, on this we all agree but life is most often unfair.

You're ignoring the point that when you force people to live in a shithole they will lash out. It's inevitable. They don't really have anything to lose. Even Israel's insane collective punishment policies aren't stopping them. You can't defeat people who are actually fighting for their homes. In the end you give them their old homes, give them satisfactory new ones or exterminate them. The first isn't viable for a number of reasons I really hope I won't have to go into in this thread again. The third isn't viable because it's inhuman. I don't really see any other options.

Life may well be tough for the Palestinians should they accede to Israeli demands but it will still be an order of magnitude better than it is now and it will improve over time.

You don't seem to be grasping the fundamental point that you're suggesting the Palestinians live in atrocious conditions while on top of the hill the Israeli settlers water their gardens. It's apartheid.