[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by milo

Quite frankly he should tone it down. If the arguments have been made but the people refuse to listen, there isn't something wrong with the people but the person making the argument.

There have, over the years, been an extremely large number of different people trying a wide variety of different methods to try to educate people about the sciences, and the scientific method. They have, in many cases, completely failed. How this, in your mind, points to a failure of an individual argument is beyond me, and it completely ignores the lack of other arguments. The trend is obvious.

The main problem is that most people do not understand how science works, or what it is.

The scientific method is merely a way of observing and predicting trends based on experimental evidence. This would, for example, include the "supernatural", if evidence for such things existed. To quote Alpha Centauri:

The popular stereotype of the researcher is that of a skeptic and a pessimist. Nothing could be further from the truth! Scientists must be optimists at heart, in order to block out the incessant chorus of those who say "It cannot be done."

This is not entirely accurate, as universal skepticism is a vital part of science, but it's close enough.

Furthermore, many of the more outspoken scientists, no matter their methodology, are subject to both threatened and actual violence from some of the more extreme religious groups. Dawkins certainly didn't start this "war", if war it is.

Originally Posted by Boogster

Any answers or feelings, or is this just gibberish?

Having actually read this now, the answer is "Evolution".

The survival of the individual is not paramount, as the individual, from one point of view, merely acts as the mechanism for the transmission of genes. Dawkins's book The Selfish Gene is the one to read on this.

Altruism and apparant self sacrifice make perfect sense within this context.

Originally Posted by milo

I'd pretty much kill myself right now if i thought my life could be bettered by converting people to my way of thinking, infact id kill them aswell. I think it was Dante who said GD would be boring if everyone agreed and i hold the same view for life. I'lll listen to what someone else says, ill put my point across, after that why worry?

The Catholic Church's view on contraceptives as a method for STI prevention actively harm those who follow its teachings. This isn't a "What do you prefer? Red or Blue?" argument, unless you find the colour blue, for example, going around killing people.

Originally Posted by milo

I'm just turning into a mellowed out hippy type

Mellowed out hippy types would generally be the people who'd support the wishy washy jehovah's witness-style argument, unless you think the opposition to the proliferation of nuclear weapons by said group was down to the fact that they weren't being used to kill enough people. You're just lazy.