Thread: Animal Rights
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Unread 4 Aug 2006, 12:05   #31
All Systems Go
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Re: Animal Rights

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Of course it does. Introspection and in general second-order thinking is a human domain.
It makes us unique that unlike any other animal we can be held accountable for our actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
A higher form of life than what? Plankton? Yes we do? Your first point is a rather different moral question concerning future-orientated ethics. There was a discussion on GD ages ago about this I think. Really worthwhile link here. There is an interesting follow-through point that can be made here that perhaps inflicting "pain" on animals is a case of harmless wrongdoing.
to be honest I'm not sure where I was going with that. Reading back I seemed to have answered 'what do you mean by higher form of life?' with something irrelevant which uses the phrase 'higher form of life'.

I'm not really sure how you would define 'higher form of life' as there are so many ways to do it. the most conveniant for people would be to assume our main attribute (i.e. intelligence) is the marker on which animals should be graded. It could also imply the length of time an animal has survived without major evolutionary changes, like a shark (am I right about this point? How much have they changed?). then again, you could go with a species ability to survive in which case it would be bugs (such as the cockroach) which would be consdiered the highest forms of life.

It all really depends what the phrase to represent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
All this aside you're going to run into vast practical problems concerning where the hell all the animals are going to go. Presuming we're not going completely barmy and saying animals can own property where are we going to put them all? I rather doubt that many people are going to find 50 million cows that amusing to have around when you're not allowed to kill them and sell them.
that is a problem of our own making and brings us towards euthenasia. Is it right to let them all starve to death when there isn't enough grass to feed them all or do we kill off a load to keep a 'balance'? this practice is already carried out in some places, not with cows of course and is part of a heated debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
So then a lion has no right to maul a human because they can't communicate with us?
A lion is not capable of those higher thought functions which allow it to consider such an option. Can you hold a (non-human) creature to accout for its actions? No you cannot because it lacks the ability to reason.

this does not justify hunting lions for fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Well yeah, it does. I'd say that humans are qualitively different from all other animals due to the immense differences in mental capacity; you'll notice that all the science and biology youre using to support your arguments was discovered by humans rather than mice or dolphins.
Does that necessarily mean it's a good thing if this eventual technology ends up destoying us? If there was a nuclear war all that would survive would be the cockroaches etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
That's true, and they will deserve rights to the extent that are capable of similar higher order thought processes to humans. If some scientist managed to genetically engineer a species of cats that were capable of complex conceptual thought and could grasp the concept of 'rights', then they should be given the same rights as humans But that day has not come yet.
I know this is a bit off-topic but what of machines? If they developed artificial intelligence would these machines have to be given equal rights? Why should we be the ones deciding who gets the rights? If a machine was created with higher thought prcesses than a human being (plus they would live longer due to parts being more easily replacable) wouldn't that then make us subordinate to them? What if they decided that until we evolved into superior beings such as themselves that we should be treated like animals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
A higher form of life than what? I would suspect most people consider a shark a higher form of life than a bacteria. If all living things are equal, then what is the justification for granting rights to sharks and not trees and plants?
Can trees feel pain? Can the feel anything? this would be a very important distinction. It's like some people don't believe that fish do not feel pain. If this is true then that argument for not killing and eating fish is removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Do you think that we should have a murder trial when a cat kills a mouse? Becuase if not, this suggests that the application of 'rights' to non-human animals cannot be the same as their application to us.
I've already touched upon this. A lion cannot be held accountable for it's actions as it lacks the higher brain functions to fully consider the consequences of its actions.
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