[lokken]

Originally Posted by Machado

This post turned out to be quite a bit longer than I had meant, mainly due to addressing several (and most) points specifically (and some regretfully repeatedly, I apologise in advance).

First of all, it should probably be noted that CT declined a (or multiple?) request to NAP with Apprime upon joining the block, which was somewhat difficult for CT since Apprime has a lot of ex-CT members. However, they saw joining the block against Apprime as giving them (much?) better odds to win the round. I can imagine that up until that point, and also considering that the incs CT had had until then were mainly p3nguins (randoms or not), napping Apprime was still on the table. After all, everybody knew there was going to be an anti-app block, whether CT would organise it or not.

Wait, you're debating this in terms of "much better". That option is everyone but CT dead, then CT dead or outroided to a ridiculous level. Apprime are only 9 million down because everyone hit them - never mind if they actually had people on their side for the whole round (in which case it would be the other way, as an alliance that active would never do this).

Ridiculous? Why? Its true (and obvious) that neither p3 nor CT would win on their own, so they needed others whatever the case. Whether that's #3 or #7 doesn't matter so much as long as it gets the job done. The fact they're in the race now shows they did something right.

The reality is that we were the instigators - to make such a claim that your HC sat in the expectation we'd approach them to coordinate the whole charade is somewhat ridiculous.

It just depends on point of view: you think you did what CT didn't/wouldn't, while I think you did what CT predicted you'd do if they wouldn't.

Our point of view at the time was simple: having one alliance (Apprime) overrun everyone was totally undesirable and we did what was needed to stop that. Particularly when it's us who would be overrun. Who won as a result was irrelevant.

Who knows, if CT had gone right for App from the start Asc (or someone else) might have joined forces with App much earlier. For conspiracy, in the end, its simply two different ways of working to achieve the same goal. This goal has been achieved, with CT keeping out of the spot light at it. Add to that the fact that hitting Apprime is harder than hitting pretty much any other alliance, its not too far off to conclude that by doing randoms (and with smart targeting also hitting the preoccupied allies) there was more personal gain for at least a little while.

CT against App solo is an amusing thought. Firstly because the thought of CT going into war from the get go is a hilarious "it'll never happen" given that I have one of your HC logged saying that CT members do the emo dance the minute it gets tough. Secondly, because Apprime would be shredded.

I hate to say it so blunt, but why do the dirty work yourself when you know somebody else will do it for you anyway? In the unlikely event that nothing did form in time, there was always the option to finally do some pushing of their own, at the risk of that being too little too late. Regardless of "what if's" - it put CT into a position of luxury. They could still decide which road to take after both sides had taken shape, and benefit from the weakened position of the other alliances. Of course now CT can't escape having to do dirty work, but now they're not in a disadvantageous position to do some. They would (have to) join the block eventually, and I fully agree that cooperation and attacks on Apprime are necessary to keep the chance to win.

Let's be clear here: your HC nearly got everyone killed and took a ridiculous amount of effort to persuade otherwise. Without beating about the bush, militarily you're enough of a shambles that they can't be that fantastic actors to intentionally difficult and then be persuaded. The stubbornness of CT HC to work with anyone that had hit them despite it being totally necessary to cooperate with them was beyond stupid. When you're bad enough to drive killerbee out of the channel and getting reams of abuse in #ascendancy when the log is pasted, I think you're overrating your own HC here. They're staggeringly, staggeringly bad and if they do achieve this victory, they'll have us to thank.

But of course everybody knows this was completely wrong and stupid, because after all the way they would choose is the only good one, and even then, its still fail because its not them doing it. What you consider inaction might just have been calculated slow play. If you can't see the plan (or the action) it doesn't mean its not there.

CT's plan is very simple: stay out of conflict and hope for the best. I don't think it's a particularly clever strategy and nor a particularly successful one, given that in r30 it achieved a sixty thousand roid lead that ended up in a massacre. You may still win if enough people help you; but that's contingent on your side being competent but if Apprime keep going it'll be very close (which is very much the intent of the timing of our withdrawal).

Very true of course, like before, I'd even go as far as saying that it was one of the few single things they could do that would be efficient enough to stay in reach of the #1. Seems smart from Ascendancy point of view too, judging from the opinions expressed so far. Why risk the wrath of the beast if you can risk the wrath of the peasants instead, and point the attention of the peasants towards the beast just a little bit more.

Our main concern is survival. The setting up the round is secondary but we were in such a position of political domination (arguably prior to tag score we might be in with a chance of being labeled winners right now) that we could decide to set up the round that way.

Looks to be just bad marketing from app side then, and perhaps a slightly awkward (or excellent) choice of words from lokken's side. I'd like to add predict political climate pre-round to that list. By the way, looking at short term and gallop head first down that road seems to be exactly what everybody seems to regard as what CT should have done, judging from various posts and common opinion. Leads me to state that not just too many HC do this, but too many players. Take a look at a random thread on AD, its all opportunistic, like I said with my first post. Opinions/reasons/entire core beliefs vary from week to week depending on whatever situation the poster is currently in, and there's hardly anyone who doesn't fall into this trap, and that could well mainly be due to a lack of frequent posting

It's actually because people lack knowledge of the tendencies of the game engine long term.

You did say your chronology was wrong. CT napped ND (way?) before the block disbanded. Anticipating the block falling apart, and their only other friends Apprime being royally pissed at them for obvious reasons, this was a bit as a safe guard from both. Again, it shows more vision than people seem to be capable of noticing. You (talking in general here, not specifically aimed at you mz) should really try thinking what another's motives might be rather than write everything off as incompetence or whatever. And naturally, that bit about p3nguins is just rubbish. As you well know, it takes two to tango.

My guess is that you were hoping Apprime would be defeated and that napping ND anticipated a fight with p3nguins.

Some info about the writer... :P I am new to CT, fresh in this round (in fact its been quite a while since I played seriously and rl actually allows me to finish a round). I say they as to not confuse my personal opinion with official CT statements, and also since I've been nastily lazy and have done little more to influence the game plan than at rare times discuss, and always observe. This is just from my point of view, and I hope it offered a little insight into the other side.

I think so far things went pretty well according to plan, the block formed, we kept a pretty low profile, and we overtook Apprime as we had hoped (planned?) - everybody has played their parts very well (and should CT win we definitely have to give credit to asc for their role - I never really liked asc for really no decent reason at all, but I have to give them a lot of points for their play this round, which started with the halt of the recruitment of everybody and their son - aside from helping us, in general, you spiced up the round a lot, I'm quite impressed). But for CT this was just stage one, and the (relatively) easy part at that. Now that the cards are finally shuffled, only now, will the only truly visible test for CT start: maintain our lead over Apprime. As for p3nguins (and the rest, pretty much) I'd say we're the best chance they've got of increasing their own rank, at least right now. At least if p3 want the #1 they have to overtake Apprime first. After all, CT is much easier to deal with

At the risk of spoiling all of our secret schemes for this round so far with my post, I just wanted to go ahead and say that while I think its lovely that everybody has an opinion of everything, keep in mind there may be more than simply what you believe to be the right way (or only! way) of doing something. What you mistake for inaction might just be calculated slow play, and you don't need to see a plan in order for it to be there.

Take over from CT HC; you are way better than them.

Just to clear up: I'm not outraged at the idea of CT winning at all; it's meant to be 'close'. I'm more outraged that anyone could possibly suppose that they've got the aptitude to do any kind of slow play that you imagine.