[Sharur]

Originally Posted by Mighteh

we still live and measure our years as B.C (before christ for those who do not know, if any) and A.D. (Anno Domini. Invented by, i believe, Dionysius to count easters, afaik)

Luckely I was educated in school to use "vot" (voor onze tijdrekening, strictly translated as "before our timecalculation") and same for after our timecalculation.

Originally Posted by Mighteh

And everywhere we look, there is influence of religion, good and bad, on our everyday life. Things like Marriage, Code of Laws, even days of week (we dont work Sundays for a reason, you know[yay religion !]) are CLOSELY tied to religion.

Well that's kind of my point, how can we know if it's good or bad since we've been brainwashed into believe certain things are good and others are bad?
Altho I must add that marriage isn't purely religious, they just added a bunch of rules to it. And for the Code of Laws I refer to my previous point, how are we to know certain things are good or bad when we've just been brainwashed? Up until recently homosexuality was against the law aswell in america, that's because of religion aswell and it was in the Code of Laws, I'm wondering how many other things are in there like that?
Obviously murder and rape aren't under discussion here.

Originally Posted by Mighteh

As much as we can never forget sacreligious violence it brought. As religion considered to be adamant and reluctant to be changed, any stray from religoin is persecuted with upmost violence. And when two religions collide, more likely then none, it brings war. From days of tribes following different primal gods, to nowadays september 11th.

Well I've noticed that the extremism in religion in my country is diminuishing (sp?), but when I think a bit further it's probably just because society has adapted the rules of religion into modern society which doesn't form the need of a real religion anymore, and I'm afraid that if we were to realise the mistakes in our moral values that religion will once again flourish.

Originally Posted by Mighteh

Personally, i have deep faith in the fact that religion is just a bunch of bullshit feelgood stories. And my faith in that is stronger then any other religious man (or woman), as i have a simple advantage on my hand. Logic. Throughout THAT many years people had been searching for god and, hey, they STILL have not found a single one.

I'm not really frustrated into the fact that people belief, more into the fact that religion always forces people to "believe". Children are educated and raised with religious believes without every asking to be. I'm more against "the church/vatican/whoever is in power in those religions" than the whole concept of "religion" personally.

Originally Posted by Mighteh

I realized too long ago that conversations about religion dont end up in nothing actually positive (aside from entertaining conversation). Someone usually end up hating you another downfall of religion (i guess coming back to unacceptance of different views) is that its not flexible enough to allow people form their OWN views on the topic, only dictated what and how to say it. And even that is understandable, as if religious people would be allowed to form their own oppinion on religion, they would end up loosing faith in it most likely due to absence of proof.

Yeah I realised that too, that's why I'm more asking about what of our moral believes, rules and other stuff in today's society is there because of religion more than wether religion is bad or good.

Originally Posted by voodoo

i think there is free will.
and out of free will, some people CHOOSE to believe in something above them.
it makes things a whole lot easier when you have someone other than yourself to thank or blame for the things in your life. other than that religion is a social concept as old as civilisation itself, which every individual has the right to accept or deny according to their personal beliefs.
this brings me back to the ideea of free will. and do religious people choose to give free will up in order to believe in something already established?
and if its free will that defines us as human beings, what defines them, after having given that up?

That's one of my points aswell, sure there's free will, but it's free within boundaries. We have been raised with moral values that emprison our "free will" between lines which we can cross and lines we can't. Who's to tell those lines are correct when we've been raised with those?
Religion has a history of limiting the free will of people, and I'm afraid they still do but it's just so that they have won the fight and are now reaping the results of it. Free will is still limited, only we don't realise it as much.
When you say every individual has the right to accept or deny according to their personal beliefs, the personal beliefs part is vital. Children are raised religious, so their "personal believes" have been opressed (wrong wordchoise so I hope you know what I mean) on them since the start, they're brainwashed into thinking it are infact their personal believes but it's not at all the case.