Alcohol culture...
 

Reading these forums, I get the idea that most of you consider it somehow a positive thing to 'drink loads'. Some even consider getting hammered a good and proper evening, or even, if you weren't hammered, it a bad one. (Grammar fails there at one point)

This I do not understand, I mean alcohol, I drink it because I like it, I mean, I like a beer, a good glass of wine, a gin tonic, a gin fizz or whatever, but once I notice that my judgement is getting off, or worse, if I've been drinking while seated, that my movement is off, I quit drinking for that night. I hate losing control or worse, missing pieces of the film. And I cannot understand that getting drunk is 'nice'. I just can't.

Can someone explain this to me?

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

I'm mashed, you ****, and i'll ****ing 'ave you so **** off to Hockeyville, USA

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Oh this again.

Many activities are fun when hammered, and utterly shit when not. Dante's comments about clubbing spring to mind.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

I thought this was going to be a thread about Theam and his hockey stick + girl (get the pun?).

This thread fails to deliver.




































































On a serious note, I had this discussion with a cabbie last night. We couldn't figure it out why.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

I find it easier to talk to people when drunk. Maybe this is because when pissed they're (normally) innane conversation suddenly becomes funny and interesting.
Some shit just seems hilarious when you get wankered, and funnier things seem to happen.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

I don't understand people who play hockey.

Others don't understand people who post on internet forums.

Personally I like drinking for a variety of reasons:

- Often conversation will be more open.
- I am more relaxed and less self concious.
- More stories tend to come of a drunken night.

Being some of them.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

What Mark said.

Undoubtedly someone will respond with "Well I have amazingly fun times while clubbing even when I'm sober" - well, good for you. This is not the case with most people I know, especially if you change 'Alcohol culture' to 'Intoxication culture'. I could have easily had my NYE festivities without any alcohol if you swap to another intoxicant, but I presume that's not what you mean.

Speaking personally, due to social norms and other issues, I find it quite difficult to talk to 'strangers' if I'm not mashed on some level or another - at least, not unless there is some sort of structure in place (e.g. I'd be fine to deliver a presentation to people I've never met and indeed I do this semi-regularly as part of my work). I think like many people I tend to "overthink" things, so if I was speaking to someone and there was a lull in conversation I would normally tend to dwell on this silence which would cause a strange feedback loop where I would be increasingly unable to think of anything to say. Intoxicants tend to obliterate this process which leads to an increase in social interaction.

You mention the issue of "judgement". A lot of people don't necessarily adore their own sense of judgement. They may find themselves too risk averse in day-to-day life and this may not be appropriate in certain circumstances (again, clubbing springs to mind). I would never while sober, after perhaps 30 seconds of conversation with a pretty girl, say "Can I kiss you?" but I have done on alcohol on various occassions, and it's always reaped positive results.

Also, there is the issue of pain. Most people's drunken escapades seem to involve doing things which would be fairly tiring/painful or boring if you weren't drunk (e.g. walking around in the cold, dancing around for 9 hours, etc). Alcohol (and other intoxicants) tend to act as a mild pain killer in this regard.

Oh yes, and for most people simply being drunk is (at first at least) is actually quite fun. Obviously if you're in a bad mood then alcohol can not necessarily rescue you, but I tend to find (as I've said elsewhere) the first two hours (at the very least) of drinking to be pretty euphoric.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Drinking is essentially escapism, for a lot of people. I can understand it. I don't imagine it helps much though, really.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Well yeah, obviously. If I was homeless for example, I'd be looking to be smashed pretty much all the time as a method of dealing with the cold or just general horror of my existence.

But I think that it's pretty misleading to presume that a group of friends who are going out together on a Friday night to get mashed are somehow "escpaing" anything. Unless you wish to, as others have on this forum have done in the past, define "escapism" in such a ridiculously broad manner as to render pretty much every human action ever as a form of escapism (and thus the term meaningless).

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

You're right.

There are probably two reasons people drink to excess:

- purely in the pursuit of fun

- as a form of escapism

However, 'escapism' includes getting drunk to hide one's percieved social defects, whether it be in speaking to strangers, or in judgement.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Perhaps, but as I implied, I am unhappy with such a definition. Let's say person X can do (or enjoys doing more) something when they are drunk. Does this mean that they are getting drunk to "escape" their inability? Again, perhaps - but that seems like a mangling of English grammar. It'd be pretty strange to say that Popeye eats spinach as a form of "escapism" from being weak for instance.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Drinking can be fun, but then so can lots of other things. Theres probably too much emphasis attached to alcohol in modern culture, but who cares really?

Also, I dont 'lose control' after drinking, even when I've drunk a lot. If I did, I would almost certainly never do it again.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

We're getting into semantics.

An athlete takes steroids to enhance his performance; a shy person drinks to hide his inadequacy. It might not be 'escapism', but it's the same thing.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

it seems that semantics is fairly important if you're trying to have a debate, as it's rather important to understand what people mean.

escapism, for instance, has fairly negative connertations (at least to me), which as dante seems to be arguing that getting drunk isn't neccessarily a terrible thing isn't the kind of thing he'd want to imply.

on another note, i had fun without being pissed and/or high. w00t. tho J did spend most of the night extoling the virtues of E to me - ironically, the dullest part was when he was busy explaining how i should be bored :(

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Its not really the same thing, because (assuming the athlete was competant and had properly researched his training and drug routine), he would only be taking steroids to break through a genetic barrier - ie there would be no way for him to significantly improve his performance through natural means alone. However, the shy person who uses alcohol to boost his confidence is treating the symptom rather than the disease. They would probably be better off working out why they were shy, and doing something about it directly.

I agree with Dante that 'escapism' is generally a meaningless term. In some strands of existentialist literature, you will encounter the claim that pretty much everything humans do on a day-to-day basis is essentially just a way of escaping the dread of non-being/anxiety/whatever. Is this just playing with words? Of course. But it doesnt seem all that different to what people try to do with the word when applying it to people who drink.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

This is probably true although curing something like shyness doesn't seem trivial (I've not heard of anyone do it in a "repeatable" or conscious fashion). Especially when it's quite domain specific - I can easily stand up in front of a room of people and talk about Stock Condition surveys or Lenin's "What is to be done?" (and indeed have done and felt pretty good afterwards) but on a one-to-one basis I find it quite difficult.

Self-medication is a tricky subject but it seems possible that in some instances supressing the symptoms are enough to beat the "disease". I've certainly heard of instances where people used Viagra (say) the first couple of times with a new partner and then had the self-confidence to never need it again. Obviously with other drugs it can fairly quickly go to the other way towards total reliance.

It's unlikely that booze ever "cures" shyness, but I'd imagine there's quite a few situations where it supresses awkwardness for long enough for you to get to know someone and thus past any shyness. At least, that's been my experience. Obviously I realise that's only specific to that situation / group of people, but that's generally all I need.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Your making a lot of assumptions there Nodrog. Personally my carefully considered and planned anti-shy routine has brought me to the lowest level of shyness... Not content with introducing myself to random girls as an old friend, and putting glasses on at ship ticket booths and declaring myself a genius to all the staff, while moving the glasses good old Michael Fish style, now, through the power of alcohol, and my trusty genetic-o-meter, I can ask whole bars of girls 'so which one of you lucky girls wants to go to a hotel with me?', tell world class K1 fighters 'Well your a lot smaller than I thought you were....' and spank pretty much every ladyboys and cosplay dancer in the club.... It's a gruelling schedule but alcohol gives me what I need to Smash That DNA....

2005: - Well new year was pretty exciting

Predictions for 2006: - Probably remain single....

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

I think alot is down to cultural associations and what people think they are going to get out of it, as much as it is the actual chemical effects of drinking on the body.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

drink improves my dancing.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

I find it tragic that somebody should need alcohol to be not shy or be able to do other things. How can an individual. thorugh alcohol or drugs, put himself in an illusionary situation, complete the task and be happy with the consequences. It sounds like a temporary short cut. Are you not back to your real self afterwards, the self that does not satisfy you and compels you to drink and take drugs and be not you. Sounds like a blind circle. If you keep doing that is it you determining the details of your characteristics or drink and drugs. I feel that you they only help you to wear a mask that becomes temprarily you even for you. I guess these do not matter for people whose only aim is to behae in a certain way for some time and not worry about self development. At the end of the day the person you get back to is always you. It is strange to need artificial things to prove yourself to yourself and to your environment. The greatest fight in the world is against the self.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

i can't remember the last time i was really drunk tbh. somehow i lost fun (challenge?) in binge-drinking; nowadays i spend nights out much differently (and with different people). i think i should consider it all in all as a big improvement, but somehow i'm not too sure about it. i don't know.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

That assumes that "enjoyment" isn't an end to itself, and that different situations don't lend themselves better to different reactions.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Life is hard, nobody can deny that. Running away from yourself with drink and drugs is to romanticise life and things incolved in it, not trying to belive in yourself and reveal your own potential without resorting to those things. Real life does not take romanticising. Live it in a non-sober way as long as you want. But in the end it will always be youhaving to pay a rent, buy food, watch and experience disasters, feel that you could be beter in some ways, endure a shit job, etc etc. Real life hits you like a rock in the end does not matter how long you run away, There is no reincarnation or karma, this life is your only chance. You think you are always changing for the better, thats good. The formation of individuality is a process. But not everybody gets into this process in the first place. Things has to happen to force them and think that something is wrong before starting to look at themselves objectively. Not everyone is like that. I was not talking about people with deep-seated mental problems that require medication. I am talking about the average person who tries to live soberly only through drink and drug. I am talking about an internalised social habit that needs to be questioned by every individual. Every individual is worthy and valuable, but it take time for them to find themselves and there are only two ways you either shape up gradually or ship out gradually. You are what you make of yourself. May be a truism, but it also means that the most difficult thing in this world is to realise and fight against a world that is trying to make you a carbon copy. Be realistic, do, think and ask for the impossible. There is nothing romantic about these things. If one is courageous enough to force his body's level of alcohol/ drug intake, he should be courageous enough to ask these questions.

Realists do not fear the results of their study - Dostoyevsky

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

where do i sign up to your program?

do you have any leaflets?

etc etc etc

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

I am sorry, I do not have a programme or leaflets. Just a man sharing his ideas with people who are willing to share. Thank you.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

You are misusing the term "illusion". If you drank 8 cups of coffee in a night to stay awake (in order to write your great manuscript or an essay or whatever) then it is not "an illusion" that you are awake longer. Psychoactives of various descriptions (as horn goes onto mention) can be used in all manner of contexts in a helpful manner.

The rest of your post reads like some pseudo-evangelical Christian tale of salvation. You are saying it is always better to be "sober" (i.e. presumably never taking any psychoactive substance including cigarettes, coffee, etc) than non-sober. But why? You can say this is somehow self-evident, but it isn't to everyone.

You mention challenging things, and I agree. And one of the particularly mindless conventions we should struggle against is the notion we are somehow perfect and that we could not benefit (in certain scenarios or situations) from external help. This will range from drinking an energy drink before having a run to perhaps self-medicating with valium to get through a stressful experience (e.g. flying). There are always dangers, but that is life and we should be courageous enough to confront them in co-operation with like minded members of our community.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

I thought you said driving there :confused:

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Not necessarily. For example I'd only really drink loads when I'm out with some friends and we're celebrating something, new years, end of college exams, start of the college year, big poker win, it being a Tuesday. That sort of thing.
Not in isolation. Quite right on the second one though, I found clubs terrible places if you're not drunk. Music too loud, place too dark, drinks too overpriced, other people shit, dancing not enjoyable and so on and so forth. All in all going to a club and not being drunk is not fun, going to a club while being drunk is fun!

What, worried about having an accident cycling home?
You seem to consider being drunk the same as being absolutely completely and utterly ****ing plastered. This is a mistake.

Alcoholics Anonymous probably can.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Is drug taking actually self-help or merely assimilation?

I wonder whether people would be so conscious of being shy if they went to different parties, or talked to different people.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

For myself, I am bad with sliding scales, once I notice my judgement is going off with how much I can still take, I stop drinking. I always find it an alarming event when I laugh at myself in the mirror when taking a piss.

But indeed, there are various degrees of drunk, I was more talking 'bout the 'I did things that I normally have inhibitions for' ... kinda stuff

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

For me it would be

I actually like being shy, it plays off well next to my outrageous arrogance.


When I finally 'get to know' someone, then, well, I am just the best.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

ITT we realise theam can't take his alcohol :(

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Like being more out going? I don't really do many things while drunk that I wouldn't do while sober bar silly little things like that and dancing in a night club. It's just I spend a lot of my time drunk so I do a lot of things while drunk :(

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

I really have no other reason to drink, than the fact that I have a lot more fun while being a bit drunk. I don't enjoy being hungover, so I usually limit myself at "intoxicated" instead of "majorly drunk". However, if you bring too much money when going to a pub, or so, you might end up totally wasted, when you were not really intending to. Thats the "control" part you're speaking about, I assume.

I don't do dancing drunk, and I get to know people more easily when I had a few beers. Those are lasting friendships too, and well, as I said; beer = more fun.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

They don't "need" it, they just enjoy it more. I don't need sugar on my strawberries, but they're nicer with them. You dig?
(from an earlier post)

What exactly is the distinction you are making between caffeine and other substances? If you consume a lot of caffeine the effect is not unlikel if you consume amphetamines. And which sedatives are OK, which ones are not and where is the division made?

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

I'm not sure I buy that. It sounds to me as though people need alcohol to enjoy certain situations.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Pointless analogy? Or is there some hidden profundity I've missed?

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Possibly, although I wouldn't say it applies to everyone, even those in the "pro-alcohol" camp. I went clubbing a few months ago and was due for a blood test the next day so steered clear of any intoxicant. Still had a good time yet not as good a time as I would have had otherwise.

Different strokes for different folks, of course. I know people who are "straight edged" who go out and party all the time but never drink, but they are rare. Most people who don't drink (from personal experience) tend not to go out, or at least not as actively as those who do.
I think his point is that you are playing word games again. The word "need" in the context of drink and drugs is usually seen as "bad" yet there are many contexts when that doesn't apply.
What on Earth relevence does this has to do with anything? Yes, they could turn to alcohol or drugs...so what? They could also destroy their lives in any number of other ways.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that drink or drugs are a universal good thing, or for anyone. This thread was asking for why people drink and a number of explanations have been offered, usually from personal experience. For some people, "self-medicating" with alcohol would be a horrendously bad idea, for others, it's OK. There is a certain diversity in the human condition and thank goodness for that.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Little old ladies often attempt 'word games' after failing the sudoku. They quite enjoy a good crossword, I'm told.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

I'm not very good at crosswords.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Bort Goes!

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Barclay, barry Bert, Bort....

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Congratulations on 5000 posts.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

What a record setting week we're having at the minute!

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Life is an endless horrible procession of dissapointment, and alcohol boosts your self esteem and self confidence for a while, makes you aspire to be something you arent.

In fairness though, not anymore for me. It just brings me down, and i find talking about getting drunk, or preparing / starting to get drunk much more enjoyable than the actual experience, when i usually wonder what the hell ive done.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Storebog?

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Presumably when you're washing your hands, not pissing in the sink?

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

you presumed correct, although, some clubs have mirrors on the urinoir side.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Personally, I like drinking until I black out.

I don't do it very often though and never on purpose as I ALWAYS make a fool of myself in the most bizarre way and can never remember exactly what happened.

However, I do enjoy the sensation the next day when I wake up and notice little things that I've done since I've been back home. It's kind of like a small-scale version of Fear and Loathing where he wakes up wearing fishing boots, a crocidile tail and the room is trashed.

It may just be the novelty experience as I'm not a big drinker and if it happened every day it would lose it's appeal but I suppose that's why I don't do it.


It is very much a form of escapism, like going on a holiday. Although I think it can be compared to religion to a certain extent. Sometimes, when people are in desperate situations they turn to God and pray for strength which they then find and can use to help themselves. But because God doesn't exist all they have done is channelled their own strength with a placebo (I think this has something to do with Marxism but I'm not 100% sure). I'm not saying this is always the case but alcohol can be used (like God) as a short-cut to "self-improvement". Likewise, too much dependence on either of these things can be very bad for you. In theory, as we grow as people our dependence on these should decrease and we can achieve the desired state of mind independently.

Re: Alcohol culture...
 

Marx called religion the opiate of the masses. Personally I prefer going straight to the source and taking the opium but whatever.