Israel prison break
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4806714.stm
This is amusing, why even bother with extradition treaties anymore? every nation can just storm whatever prison of whichever territory they please. Infact im surprised they didn't just send in a helicopter strike. I suppose that because the PFLP didn't just send in a suicide bomber and bothered to kill a member of the government they decided to give him special treatment. Does anyone believe the US/UK didn't collude with the Israelis on this? btw what the hell is going on with sharon? pull the plug! |
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I thought this thread was going to be about something happy :(
Israel do as they please. Sadly, these things dont shock me anymore. Israel is a state founded on racism and seperation, so it's no wonder that they do as they please with the palestinians. This is pretty nonshocker compared to the other atrocies that is done down there every day I don't know what collude means :( |
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Just another day in Hamastan.
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The UK government asked the new Palestinian government for guarantees on the safety of their troops. The Palestinians were not prepared to give any such guarantees (im guessing there was a fair bit of chest thumpin and "You support the evil Zionist regime, we will not give you or promise you anything" , and as such the troops were ordered to pull out.
The Israelis knew they were going to go. Whether through an intricate spying network, or through being tipped off by the UK or US , they knew. And once they were gone, it was open season. Its not like the Palestinians had anything like the firepower needed to drive off elite Israeli armored units, and as such, they did what they want, when they want, as usual. Anyone surprised by this? |
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If theres a task force there with UK and US troops, the Israelis are NOT going to attack. They are NOT going to cause casualties on the part of their biggest allies. It is NOT going to happen. The safety issue was most likely for the american troops getting stoned by Palestinians. Do I think there was collusion on the part of the US & UK troops to pull out? MOst likely yes, but hey, thats international politics. Some nations get to be the daddy, some get to be the bitch. Palestine is once again the bitch of the international community. Hamas has made it so. |
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hey guys, we're dealing with the commies not the islamists
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AlL I did was explain factual truth. Perhaps you should have responded with "but Yahwe they shouldn't" rather than "but Yahwe they can't". |
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Israel is seriously awesome :cool:
According to the article, the guy they took was believed to have killed the tourism minister. If Britain and the US took a similar hardline stance towards terrorists, the world would probably be a better place. Compare this to the passive, tiptoeing, cackhanded way the British government handled Irish terrorism throughout the 20th century. |
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Hamas then took power. They refused to speak to Israel. Or negotiate with anyone, anywhere, at any time. Hamas is very much to blame. |
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Youre throwing Smoke and Mirrors in here dude. |
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Considerably less hardline doesn't make it acceptable. HAMAS refused to recognise the right of israel to exist, it was everyone else that walked away from them, their position isn't dissimilar to sin fein/ira at the begining of the NI peace process |
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I guess the second intifada was started beacause the palestinians was bored :cool: I'm not saying Hamas is cool. But they are at least not corrupt. And negotiation when one side holds all the cards is not really a negotiation, more like extortion. |
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If we send our troops somewhere, we are criticised.
If we leave our troops somewhere, we are criticised. Now, our troops leave some place, however small, and again we have people saying that it was a conspiracy. Lose-Lose situation. |
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i think they were civilian monitors
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It was the notiifcation of the pull out to Israel and the immediate action by them right afterward that couldn't be stopped that has people crying foul. Basically it's leaving and shouting "my back is turned and I'm not there to stop it, do what you want". Quote:
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You really have just become a hideous troll now haven't you. |
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The Israelis admitted major failures in identifying the ship. The US admitted that after the initial attack, the instruction to cease fire was misinterpreted and that further skirmishes ensued leading to the boat being torpedoed. The US did not accept the official explanation. The Israelis had not been advised there was a US spy ship in those waters. A lot of US officials did a bit of chest thumping and said it was a deliberate calculated attack , but that was more so they would be seen as strong, hardline characters within their own poliitical system rather than a strongly held belief that anything they said would make a blind bit of difference. The massive difference here is that there was a state of war declared, and there were huge military operations going on in around the area, and friendly fire occurred. Failures to identify targets happen, that simply COULD NOT have happened in the case of the prison break. |
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Did you? |
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Call me a cynic, but the vested interests of their major backers will prevent them ever being overrun. There may be a change of leadership forced upon them by their backers, but no way jose to them being destroyed by any of their enemies. |
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America can certainly protect them now. They've demonstrated that they're perfectly capable of defending themselves in the past. What exactly are you proposing is going to happen? |
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The voting demographic in the united states is going to change, Judaism will no longer be the second largest religious voting block, islam will take its place (assuming theres a fairly homogenous attitude to candidates). No nation on earth has done anything that isn't in its interests, is it really beyond all reason to believe that america's interest isn't intrinsically linked to the existence of israel?
Besides all that israel is the de facto 'jewish state' it'll be interesting to see how it copes with what could turn out to be a jewish minority in that state. |
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Milo. It's not beacause of the Jew masterplan, votingmass or anything else related to Judaism that America backs Israel. The way I see it, the two main reasons:
1. Power. Keeping a stable ally in those territories is pretty much vital. HOWEVER, this is not the main reason. Stable allies for the US grows on trees down there, it's just that they kill them all the time. And this leads me to the second point, 2. Christian bigots in America. (the largest and most conservative voting group, at least that is into international politics) If you read the Bible, spesifically the part about Armageddon, you will notice that there are a few requirements. One of them is Israel, and the jews presence there. They are there to convert or die, to put it simply. So the main reason (or at least one of the biggest) to why America supports Israel is really antisemitic! So your point about Judean voters is pretty void :( Oh and how exactly are they going to become a jewish minority in Israel? Quote:
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fair enough, but i don't see it as any sort of conspiracy, as for the jewish/arab birth rate i thought it was a fairly well known trend?
first google results http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...1/124803.shtml http://www.newzionist.com/2005/06/on...-demographics/ |
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There may come a point in the future where America has a crisis of its own to deal with and cannot provide fully the current support it brings to Israel, but as of right now, militarily, Israel is in a position to defend itself from any acts of aggression from its neighbours. Theyre the only nuclear power in the region, and no government in its right mind picks a war with someone with Nukes and the bottle to use them. |
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I heard a rumour that GW Bush is actually gay and takes it up the ass from Cheney. But its just a rumour ....... |
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South Africa , as i stated, reached a point where internally they had a shift of power. They didnt suffer a massive invasion from their neighbours, and the changeover of power was not a long, drawn out war. My point stands. |
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iirc the number of people using the right of return peaked in the early - mid 90s when people from the former SU used the opportunity for a better life, but has declined since. The jews in western europe - n.america seem relatively content, they may care deeply about israel but seemingly not enough to return. |
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oh and kura we're not only discussing the rather limited concept of an arab army overrunning israel
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Also, I do not think Israel will be the only nuclear power in the region for too much longer (and if 'the region' includes Pakistan they already aren't). |
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There will of course be drips and drab migration from Western Europe (especially if anti-Jewish attacks occur or they generally feel uncomfortable with Europe's growing Muslim population) and the United States (the children of the orthodox and so on) and possibly Latin America (Argentina mainly, due to economic problems) but I doubt it will ever be on the scale of the "Soviet" Jews migration which approached something like a million people. Simply put, there are no more large scale Jewish populations who want to return to Israel. Which definitely can't be said for the Palestenians. More generally, both inside Israel (and the occupied territories) and Israel's neighbours the Arab populations have a high birth-rate (I believe at one stage the Gaza Strip had the highest birth-rate in the world, although some have doubted those figures). Almost all of the countries around Israel have a relatively high birth-rate and their populations will grow enormously over the next fifty years if trends remain as they do. So to summarise : Israel is going to be dealing with keeping down larger and larger Arab populations. Gerrymandering, atrocities, expulsions and the like will help in the short-term but they will not change facts. The cost of occupying / continual war will wear Israel down and eventually they will fall. Of course, for now (and certainly for the next ten to twenty years) they have the United States who stand unopposed in military might. Quote:
Instead, it was because elements inside the National Party (and elsewhere in South Africa's elite) began to consider the costs of apartheid were too high. Compulsory military service for instance was generally disliked - remember this wasn't playing boy scouts in the Alps like many of our European cousins seem to partake - but proper military service where you could be sent to Angola or have to deal with some township rebellion in some of the worst places on Earth. I have an in-law who tried to commit suicide simply to avoid it, for instance. The black population was growing (and migrating) far quicker than the white population and this was unlikely to change. The ANC (and co) were growing in organisation skill and ability to disrupt/boycott/harrass the authorities (payment strikes, sabotage, etc). In addition to this, international pariah status (sanctions, boycotts, being barred from sporting events, etc) bears down rather heavily if you're living in an otherwise priviliged lifestyle. Israel is not in such a bad position due to history but it's not like they have a high degree of international support either (let's play count the UN votes on Israel & Palestine shall we?) But the whites could have continued. They could have, instead of putting Mandela in Robben Island for twenty odd years simply shot him in the head. They could have used their military advantage to crack down much harder on "the terrorists" in the ANC. And if you speak to some white South Africans you will find many people who believe that is precisely what they should have done. Instead they struck a bargain. Negotiated transfer of power and the whites got to keep much of their land / privilige (well, for now). There is a quote in one of the Discworld books which says something along the lines of "If you are going to kick a troll when he is chained up, don't be around when he is unchained". Quote:
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Vannunu did not even start working for at Dimona, the Israeli nuclear installation, until 1976, so it is highly unlikely that when planning an attack on Israel, Syria or Egypt had any foreknowledge that they were attacking a nuclear state. |
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Hmm.. I'm a muslim, an arab and a palestinean, so I think I deserve my saying in this..
(I'm not living in Palestine though, was forceed to immigration). I don't know how can some of you blame it all on Hamas, how many times did Fath (The ex govermental admistration) tried to have a ceasefire with Isrealians? And yes, it was alawys broken by Israel first. Holding Yaser Arafat in his own office and building is considered a good think on the side of Isreal? Muslims, arabs and palestineans are just deperate of the word peace, espiecially with Isreal. They do whatever they want, and no one seems to be getting in the way. They took 'Ahmad Essadat' from the prison, a co-founder of the Libiration group (Don't know it's name in English really), in the charge of assasinating the tourisim minister 2 years ago, ohh, thank god they remembered to. This move also came after Hamas considered being a part of that Libiration group, just to get more and more support from the people. To say it's Hamas' fault is quite not fair. The Palestinean people were eager to a thought of peace, but not anymore. It's quite annoying, to see any decision almost being made by the UN to the profit of Palestine, get veto-ed by the US. Those who keep saying bla bla bla about justice and democracy, while they seem to not follow it. |
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Youre not telling me that Israel have absoloutely no right to defend themselves by building the wall, bearing in mind the sheer number of palestinian suicide bombings over the last 10 years within Israel? Youre trying to say that a government which was negotiating with Israel, and doing not too bad for its troubles (see the number of israeli settlements created during Fatah's reign, see the number of Israeli settlements removed during Fatah's reign, see the amount of funding which was allowed into the coffers of the Palestinian Government, which I might add, could not have come into existence without the Israeli's allowing it), couldnt control Hamas, an extremist group with a bodycount which Al Qaeda can only dream of, and that when the terrorists come into power (and lets not say Hamas are politicians. The IRA has a political wing called Sinn Fein, it does not make the IRA any less of a terrorist group, so however you blur the lines, theyre still killer , theyre just now making the transition to 'killers in suits'", and that for this reason, they were sucking Israeli cock and didnt deserve to govern? They were the closest thing that the Palestinians had to a chance of negotiating what they wanted in the long term. That wont happen under Hamas. Every nation in the world has a policy of "We do not negotiate with terrorists" , why the hell should Israel be forced to negotiate with them when they refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist without first getting what they want?, Thats not even close to negotiation, thats throwing in something they KNOW the Israeli's cannot give to appease the electorate. Its like the BNP saying "We want complete control of Burnley and the surrounding areas if we are to give up shaving our heads and racially abusing local residents" I have absoloutely no doubt Israels reactions to incidents are hardline and in some cases, a little over the top, but trust me , you bring that kind of bloodshed to your local neighbourhood, and youd be calling on your government to do something about it other than say "Lets all just calm down a bit and talk". |
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