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-   -   Jesus rejected for Christmas (https://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=193059)

Travler 14 Nov 2006 21:33

Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
It seems that Jesus is not wanted at Christmas anymore. This article highlights how far removed Jesus has become during Christmas time.

To the people at Toys for Tots I have the following to say. Why not separate the gifts by holiday so that the Christian kids get Christmas gifts while the other kids get gifts that correspond to their specific holidays.

gzambo 14 Nov 2006 21:39

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
delete thread ban user

Yahwe 14 Nov 2006 21:40

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
to be fair jesus did steal christmas from Sol Invictus.

jt25man 14 Nov 2006 22:43

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
It's funny how Christmas is supposed to be the celebration of Jesus' birth, yet there's no real evidence of the actual day he was born, they just threw a dart at a calender or something and said "December 25th...sounds good to us."

If Travler hasn't realized, Christmas hasn't been about celebrating Jesus birth for a few hundred years (outside religious groups, and even then it's sparse and most people only go to one service), it's mostly now a days about giving each other gifts, pigging out on Christmas dinner, and helping out the economy for the last month of the year by spending lots of money to get people things they don't really need.

milo 14 Nov 2006 22:50

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
To echo what yahwe said, the 25th December was never explicitly mentioned in the bible, even accepting any changes and development in the types of calender used there wasn't afaik any recurring celestial observations to tie into the time of his birth. The time Christmas is celebrated on was taken from the beliefs that preceded christianity; which just goes to show you can take god to the people but they feel mighty odd if you **** up tradition. They celebrated at that time, they just changed what they celebrated.

Far from avoiding christians they're just accepting the ambiguity of the date and letting people do what they want.

Oh and because its government related and so can't advocate one religion over another, but we'll ignore that.

Tactitus 14 Nov 2006 23:01

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
It seems that Jesus is not wanted at Christmas anymore. This article highlights how far removed Jesus has become during Christmas time.

I'm guessing the marketplace has rejected Jesus as well; otherwise the company probably wouldn't be trying to donate 4000 of them to Toys for Tots (can you say tax write-off?). ;)
Quote:

To the people at Toys for Tots I have the following to say. Why not separate the gifts by holiday so that the Christian kids get Christmas gifts while the other kids get gifts that correspond to their specific holidays.
That would add overhead to their charity, as both toys and recipients would then have to be sorted by religious affiliation. The article you linked to says as much.

Toys for Tots is a not-for-profit public charity originally founded by the US Marine Corps Reserve. They undoubtably have to bend over backwards to be non-religious insofar as much of their work is done by marine reservists who are nominally government employees (even though they volunteer to work on Toys for Tots for no pay on their own time).

Instead of criticizing non-religious charities for being non-religious, why don't you support Christian charities (e.g., The Salvation Army)?

Yahwe 14 Nov 2006 23:28

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by milo
which just goes to show you can take god to the people but they feel mighty odd if you **** up tradition. They celebrated at that time, they just changed what they celebrated.

Sol Invictus was remarkably similar to the ascended Christ as opposed to what we might term Jesus.
Jesus, Josua bar Joseph, has always had very little to do with Christmas; even after we accept that the Empire swapped Sol Invictus for christ.

Yahwe 14 Nov 2006 23:35

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jt25man
If Travler hasn't realized, Christmas hasn't been about celebrating Jesus birth for a few hundred years (outside religious groups, and even then it's sparse and most people only go to one service), it's mostly now a days about giving each other gifts, pigging out on Christmas dinner, and helping out the economy for the last month of the year by spending lots of money to get people things they don't really need.

to be fair I think it's much more about enduring winter.

Humans are animals and winter is pretty bloody awful

Maladoni 14 Nov 2006 23:36

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Did the Christians just not pick significant days of Pagan celebration to make events in their New Testament easier for the Britain’s to remember?

Solar Lord 15 Nov 2006 00:15

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Jesus was actually born in march I believe, saw it on some cable channel. Oh and btw why was the first reply posted some guy saying delete thread ban user, seems a bit crap?

Vermillion 15 Nov 2006 00:23

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
A talking Jesus doll that quotes Bible verses?

Maybe the Marines turned the dolls down because they did not want 4000 children to grow up with an unreasoning hatred for the USMC based on the unbelievably wankerish* present they got as a child.

"Did I get the Hot Wheels play set? Or the Bratz play house? No, I got a talking Jesus doll, and when I press his back he keeps telling me not to worship graven images."

Besides, you KNOW that within an hour Jesus would be naked and lying on top of 'secular harlot Barbie' (a popular toy south of the Mason-Dixon line).

* yes, its a word.

Yahwe 15 Nov 2006 00:29

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermillion
Maybe the Marines turned the dolls down because they did not want 4000 children to grow up with an unreasoning hatred for the USMC based on the unbelievably wankerish* present they got as a child.

we could always tell them (the survivors) that the shrapnel they pulled out of their leg/arm/chest was a christmas present if you prefer.

Mistwraith 15 Nov 2006 01:24

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
its true .. the pagan dates were used for the christian days of worship...

they also built chruches on pagan ritual sites...

why ... to encourage the pagans to come to and celebrate the christian holy days and the christian god, not daft those early christian priests.

basic math makes jesus born well after december .. seeing as mary was sat in the shelter of an olive tree, .. it had leaves and olives on it, so that makes it either summer or autumn .. add 9 months .. not december .

Dead_Meat 15 Nov 2006 01:48

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
I continually fail to understand why people respond to Travler's posts, since he invariably fails to follow-up on any points made, and even when he does decide to reply, it's to further whatever motive made him create the thread in the first place, rather than reply to follow-on posts.

It's like trolling without actually knowing what trolling is.

Alessio 15 Nov 2006 02:05

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
It seems that Jesus is not wanted at Christmas anymore. This article highlights how far removed Jesus has become during Christmas time.

As if you would want your kids to get Mohammed dolls send to them instead of toys

Dead_Meat 15 Nov 2006 02:42

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alessio
As if you would want your kids to get Mohammed dolls send to them instead of toys

Quote:

Michael La Roe, director of business development for both companies, said the charity's decision left him "surprised and disappointed."

"The idea was for them to be three-dimensional teaching tools for kids," La Roe said. "I believe as a churchgoing person, anyone can benefit from hearing the words of the Bible."
Someone needs to send this ****er a Koran-spouting Mohammed doll.

Demon Dave 15 Nov 2006 04:32

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead_Meat
I continually fail to understand why people respond to Travler's posts, since he invariably fails to follow-up on any points made, and even when he does decide to reply, it's to further whatever motive made him create the thread in the first place, rather than reply to follow-on posts.

It's like trolling without actually knowing what trolling is.


You're a mod aren't you old man? You can save us from the evil one!

Travler 15 Nov 2006 07:55

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead_Meat
I continually fail to understand why people respond to Travler's posts, since he invariably fails to follow-up on any points made, and even when he does decide to reply, it's to further whatever motive made him create the thread in the first place, rather than reply to follow-on posts.

It's like trolling without actually knowing what trolling is.

Sorry but I have to work and with an hour and a half commute each way my free time is somewhat limited. Usually I can only make a few posts each day and forum responses can occur quite quickly at times leaving me only able to pick one or two responses to respond to.

I always thinks of trolling like when you go fishing in a boat and you use the trolling motor to go real slow so as not to disturb the fish. I get the feeling it's different on the forums. Dee Dee Dee.

Travler 15 Nov 2006 08:17

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactitus
I'm guessing the marketplace has rejected Jesus as well; otherwise the company probably wouldn't be trying to donate 4000 of them to Toys for Tots (can you say tax write-off?). ;)

I don't think they have advertised or distributed their product much. I have not seen them picked up by any of the national Christian book store chains. Seems like this article is generating more publicity that anything the company has tried to do itself.

My main problem with Toys for Tots is that the toys were free and they rejected it. If I personally buy a Jesus Doll and take it to a Toys for Tots donation site will they also reject me?

Why do they even bother to collect and donate toys at this time of year if they reject religious based toys? Why not have this program around the 4th of July which is a national holiday in the USA?

I feel so strongly about this I have addressed my concerns directly to the Toys for Tots organization. I will follow up if I recieve a response.

jt25man 15 Nov 2006 09:14

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermillion
Besides, you KNOW that within an hour Jesus would be naked and lying on top of 'secular harlot Barbie' (a popular toy south of the Mason-Dixon line).

Ten minutes after that the kid would of popped the head off and be seeing if it would flush down the toilet, then he'd go get a fire cracker and shove it down the neck hole and that would be the end of the talking Jesus.

All Systems Go 15 Nov 2006 11:53

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
I don't think they have advertised or distributed their product much. I have not seen them picked up by any of the national Christian book store chains.

Probably because it's extremely cheap and tacky.

Quote:

Seems like this article is generating more publicity that anything the company has tried to do itself.
Except give these toys away, get rejected and go running to the press.

Quote:

My main problem with Toys for Tots is that the toys were free and they rejected it.
What if someone sent in 4000 KKK-Men, teaching white supremecy, would you still have a problem with it? Even if it came with a little black fella to lynch as a bonus?

Quote:

If I personally buy a Jesus Doll and take it to a Toys for Tots donation site will they also reject me?
I would hope so. Or just accept it and throw it away. I am very opposed to religious doctrine being dressed up in the form of charity. It just seems to me (even if it's unintentional) that the religion is trying to gain more members from the most vulnerable members of society.

Quote:

Why do they even bother to collect and donate toys at this time of year if they reject religious based toys? Why not have this program around the 4th of July which is a national holiday in the USA?
Christmas is seen as a time for giving and good will for all men. this program is designed to make disadvantaged children (who may be poor or alone or whatever) feel less neglected by society when everyone else in society goes into 'greedy, fat bastard mode' and stuffs their face on more food and buy more disposable crap than you could ever need (or want) in a lifetime.

this is not a religious program nor is it a religious organisation. to suggest doing at any other time of the year is to completely miss the point of the whole exercise of good-will to all men (and women).

Quote:

I feel so strongly about this I have addressed my concerns directly to the Toys for Tots organization. I will follow up if I recieve a response.
I look forward to it.

wakey 15 Nov 2006 14:42

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
I don't blame them for turning down those highly tacky promotional peices.

And please tell me how christians can get up in arms about every little thing yet find it alright to have tacky toys made of the person they consider 'the son of god'.

And anyway as others have said Christmas isnt really a Christian holiday, the christians hijacked it. Not that its a bad thing as its helped give the holiday a more marketable face so it rose above any religious basis to become a holiday about family and friends and the act of giving to and being kind to others. It doesnt matter what race or religion you are its a holiday you can celebrate and enjoy and christians complaing about the 'jesus' factor being forgetten should just shut up and celebrate in the way they want to and stop worrying about how others are

Hicks 15 Nov 2006 15:28

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
This is Travler reporting from the front lines of the war on Christmas !

djbass 15 Nov 2006 15:46

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
It's funny that people speak with remorse at how 'commercial' christmas has become in the modern day & age, but I say it was always a commercial venture from the beginning and the only thing that has changed is the currency.

There are too many variations on just how christmas came about for me to accept any one answer, however the one thing that is very clear is the holiday was never meant with pure intent. If I take Wakey's version for example then the commercial gain was an investment in more souls for their religion and with it more power or hold over the people.

Dress it up how ever you like, I still do not believe there is any pure intent behind christmas. This whole giving and goodwill thing is a farce, we all have our own reasons for celebrating christmas and something to gain from it.

I sometimes like to test the moral fibre of family and friends by not giving or accepting any gifts on christmas. When they look at me with stupor that I have not laden them with extravagant gifts I simply say 'My gift to you is love, Merry Christmas!'.

wakey 15 Nov 2006 16:17

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Its easy to label commercialism and self intrest as 'bad' things but its not as simple as that. Most 'acts of good' have some kind of personal gain at the centre of it.

At christmas for example
  • People donate more money to charity , they do this as it makes them feel better about themselves
  • People give presents to others, they do so because it pleases the person and makes the giver feel better about themselves

Its like above when someone comments that the donation of the Jesus dols was for the tax breaks. Alot of companies do such things as it has a finacial benifit to them. That doesnt mean the donation doesnt help someone.

Christianity made the holiday more marketable, the better marketability meant that firms could make money off it so promoted it and this promotion opened the holiday up to more people inturn having the positive effects of people being more charitable, giving and getting famailies together

Tactitus 15 Nov 2006 16:25

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
I don't think they have advertised or distributed their product much. I have not seen them picked up by any of the national Christian book store chains.

That doesn't sound like a very successful product/business plan to me.
Quote:

Seems like this article is generating more publicity that anything the company has tried to do itself.
Not being able to give their product away doesn't seem like especially good publicity, but maybe they're from the 'any publicity is good publicity' school of advertising.
Quote:

My main problem with Toys for Tots is that the toys were free and they rejected it. If I personally buy a Jesus Doll and take it to a Toys for Tots donation site will they also reject me?
Well, they'd probably reject your gift. I guess it's up to you if you want to interpret that as a personal rejection. I suspect they get a lot of gifts they can't or won't use (broken toys, toy guns, etc).
Quote:

Why do they even bother to collect and donate toys at this time of year if they reject religious based toys? Why not have this program around the 4th of July which is a national holiday in the USA?
Um, I'm guessing because there's no tradition of gift-giving associated with Independence Day (Fireworks for Tots?).
Quote:

I feel so strongly about this I have addressed my concerns directly to the Toys for Tots organization. I will follow up if I recieve a response.
You go, girl!

Hebdomad 15 Nov 2006 17:49

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
Why not separate the gifts by holiday so that the Christian kids get Christmas gifts while the other kids get gifts that correspond to their specific holidays.

They should build a wall down the middle of toys r us, one side for the good honest Christian kids and one side for the dirty heathens. After all, due to historical precedents in Europe and beyond, December the 25th is inherently a Christian celebration, and so the others should respect that, and even acquiesce to our God given right. I'm sure historical events would back this up as being the primary methods to achieve religious and perhaps even political peace.

Yahwe 15 Nov 2006 19:54

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by djbass
There are too many variations on just how christmas came about for me to accept any one answer,

The birthday of Sol Invictus was made a public holiday by aurelian.

What are these other versions?

Travler 17 Nov 2006 04:02

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I am very opposed to religious doctrine being dressed up in the form of charity. It just seems to me (even if it's unintentional) that the religion is trying to gain more members from the most vulnerable members of society.

Get rid of Religion and you might as well get rid of Charity too. I don't know the numbers but I am quite certain that most Charities are based in religion.

The most vulnerable members of society need religion and help more than anyone else. If they become believers thats great. If not then God bless them. But helping the disadvantaged is exactly what Jesus wants us to do. Gaining members has is both a good thing and a challenge for a church. One the one hand more people mean more money and more hands to do stuff. On the other hand more people means that larger buildings are needed or more services and more people to run things.

furball 17 Nov 2006 04:10

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
Get rid of Religion and you might as well get rid of Charity too. I don't know the numbers but I am quite certain that most Charities are based in religion.

I'd attribute any proportion of religious charities (e.g. the Salvation Army) compared to the whole to history, as opposed to destiny. The world was considerably more religious 150 years ago when many charities in the Western world were founded.

Nevertheless, a quick Wikipedia search told me that a good majority of these charities are secular.

wakey 17 Nov 2006 12:30

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
Get rid of Religion and you might as well get rid of Charity too. I don't know the numbers but I am quite certain that most Charities are based in religion.

The most vulnerable members of society need religion and help more than anyone else. If they become believers thats great. If not then God bless them. But helping the disadvantaged is exactly what Jesus wants us to do. Gaining members has is both a good thing and a challenge for a church. One the one hand more people mean more money and more hands to do stuff. On the other hand more people means that larger buildings are needed or more services and more people to run things.


Surely if the bibles to be believed then ‘Jesus’ also wanted us to also be tolerant of others lifestyles and actions did he not. After all the bible goes to great lengths to show him hanging around with whores and other ‘unpleasant’ characters and showing them forgiveness and understanding but that doesn’t stop Christians being some of the most intolerant, quick to judge, bigoted people on this planet.

I just wish people like you would stop with all this “WWJD” type crap because the ‘Jesus’ that the bible talks about bears no resemblance to the ‘followers’ that your religion churns out. If the church is going to preach about how we should live our lives then they should first get their house in order and actual act in a way that is more like the way ‘Jesus’ lived rather than ignore the parts that tell us we should live in a tolerant and open minded manner just because it undermines the church’s ability to brainwash and control their congregation.

If there is a god, unless he is some kind of megalomaniac I bet he’s completely embarrassed to see those following organised religion acting in the brain dead, bigoted manner that they do especially when it’s being done in his name. After all if he did create us he made us all the way we are be it black or white, male or female, straight or gay and he also gave us the ability to be free thinking. This means if you attack others for how they are or attack people for their choices then your attacking the very person you worship as it was of ‘god’ doing.

Anyway if religious groups want to start charities then good for them and it should be encouraged but charities are there to help people and at no point should they start being preached to and attempted to be converted. If they want religion there are enough churches they can walk into without people taking advantage of their situation to bring them into your ‘cult’

Vermillion 17 Nov 2006 14:44

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
Get rid of Religion and you might as well get rid of Charity too. I don't know the numbers but I am quite certain that most Charities are based in religion.

The issue is not weither charities are religious in origin, but weither they are conversionist religions. The Salvation Army places no limits or qualms on its donations. A Lesbian transexual apostate Muslim (yes, both) sodomite three-eyed mutant adulterer would get service just as fast in one of their soup kitchens. Well, probably even faster, because lets face it, thats scary.

When religion is used to help people, then power to it. When religion is used to blackmail the less fortnate into belief, then it is by definition, evil.

Quote:

The most vulnerable members of society need religion and help more than anyone else.
Especially if you offer them free Kool-aid!

Quote:

But helping the disadvantaged is exactly what Jesus wants us to do.
Yeah, but he also wanted to to treat your slaves fairly well. I too am getting tired of this line of argumentation, as it is used nowadays to justify everything the weirdest funamentalist christian could ever want, from "Jesus would want us to oppose a five-day waiting period on handguns" to "Jesus would want us to execute this mentally retarded black man".

Travler 18 Nov 2006 03:12

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wakey
Anyway if religious groups want to start charities then good for them and it should be encouraged but charities are there to help people and at no point should they start being preached to and attempted to be converted. If they want religion there are enough churches they can walk into without people taking advantage of their situation to bring them into your ‘cult’

Before I became a Christian my family was helped by a local Church. They supplied a food basket and toys for the kids. In the bottom of the large box of food was a simple paper back Bible and a letter inviting us to visit the particular church that provided the assistance. Even before I was a believer I did not feel as though I was being preached to or taken advantage of. It was the first time I saw first hand that Churches and Christians really do care about something other than themselves and rules.

1-X 18 Nov 2006 03:17

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
Before I became a Christian my family was helped by a local Church. They supplied a food basket and toys for the kids. In the bottom of the large box of food was a simple paper back Bible and a letter inviting us to visit the particular church that provided the assistance. Even before I was a believer I did not feel as though I was being preached to or taken advantage of. It was the first time I saw first hand that Churches and Christians really do care about something other than themselves and rules.

either that or they deliberately target the most vulnerable as they're easy prey for recruitment, and never do good for good's sake (instead they do it to please their god/get a reward when they die)

Travler 18 Nov 2006 03:24

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I look forward to it.

Luke 18:27 (NIV)
Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

I did not receive a personal response but the following is from http://www.toysfortots.org/
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toys For Tots
The Talking Jesus doll issue has been resolved. Toys for Tots has found appropriate places for these items. We have notified the donor of our willingness to handle this transaction.

I doubt my e-mail was the only one they received but evidently their actions required a readjustment of the situation. This is power of God.

Yahwe 18 Nov 2006 03:40

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
I doubt my e-mail was the only one they received but evidently their actions required a readjustment of the situation. This is power of God.

If you believe that a group of mortal humans complaing and annoying people because they are fanatics is 'the power of god' then your 'god' is not particularly strong.

What you have witnessed is the power of the mob and the power of capitalism.

Is your god so utterly devoid of beauty? Is he such a wordly god that he must play in the filth of human politics? Is he such a pretend god that he needs you to protect him?

Vermillion 18 Nov 2006 13:26

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
Luke 18:27 (NIV)
Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

Jesus replied, "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5)

And so on.

Quote:

I doubt my e-mail was the only one they received but evidently their actions required a readjustment of the situation. This is power of God.
Really? Whining emails are the power of God? I somehow imagined something grander than e-spam as being representative of the power of the allmighty.

Call me a romantic, but to me the 'Power of God' would be more, I don't know, God helping starving and loney children with food, shelter and good health. Not so much God (through the power of several hundred psudo-indignant emails) making sure 1000 children get a talking Jesus doll which spouts Bible verses.

Then again, perhaps it is God being good to his family, after all, it is illegal to make a direct representation of someone without violating copyright laws, so Jesus must be getting some sort of kickback for every doll sold. Maybe It's just God trying to help his son out a bit now that the carpentry business is fallen through...


Hey, you abandoned the other thread, you still not believe in random chance?

Travler 19 Nov 2006 06:31

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermillion
Really? Whining emails are the power of God? I somehow imagined something grander than e-spam as being representative of the power of the allmighty.

Call me a romantic, but to me the 'Power of God' would be more, I don't know, God helping starving and loney children with food, shelter and good health. Not so much God (through the power of several hundred psudo-indignant emails) making sure 1000 children get a talking Jesus doll which spouts Bible verses.

Matthew 18:20 (NIV)
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

Don't discount the little miracles. God works in our lives in all things not just the great and the grand. I'm just glad this one little prayer of mine was answered.

All Systems Go 19 Nov 2006 12:06

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
Matthew 18:20 (NIV)
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

Don't discount the little miracles. God works in our lives in all things not just the great and the grand. I'm just glad this one little prayer of mine was answered.

Before I thought you were just deluded. Now I honestly think you are clinically insane and should be locked up.

that you think God would bother with this when millions of people are starving to death just cause you asked nicely shows signs of dementia.

Vermillion 19 Nov 2006 13:19

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
Matthew 18:20 (NIV)
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

Don't discount the little miracles. God works in our lives in all things not just the great and the grand. I'm just glad this one little prayer of mine was answered.


Why did you need to pray? I mean, if its God, surely he knew what was in your mind and decided to do it or not do it based on its own merits. Where does 'prayer' enter into it? Or does god do things for people, not based on the goodness of evil of the act or the asker, but based on how much people praise his name?

Aren't pride, arrogance and greed sins? Doesn't the necessity of prayer make God evil?


If there is one thing I adore about fundamentalist Christians, it is that whenever anything goes their way, its God's work, and whenever anything evil hppens, it has nothing to do with God. When your delusion is so self-reinforcing that reality simply connot penetrate, then you can use it to justify anything. Such as the litany of human atrocity over the last few thousand years performed by 'pious' men entirely in the name of 'God'.

wakey 19 Nov 2006 20:49

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travler
Before I became a Christian my family was helped by a local Church. They supplied a food basket and toys for the kids. In the bottom of the large box of food was a simple paper back Bible and a letter inviting us to visit the particular church that provided the assistance. Even before I was a believer I did not feel as though I was being preached to or taken advantage of. It was the first time I saw first hand that Churches and Christians really do care about something other than themselves and rules.

As 1-X states they target vulnerable people. Those that require a charitable contribution are easy targets for groups to take advantage which no matter what you say that's what the church did to you. They including propaganda material as part of their charitable gift to prey on your vulnerabilities and/or to guilt trip you into joining their 'cult' .

Its actually pretty despicable and not at all charitable and certainly doesn't seem to be very Jesus like

Boogster 20 Nov 2006 00:36

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
I don't know whether to take you lot seriously sometimes. Why on earth do you claim to hate religion so much? It just seems silly. Chelsea is a much more obvious target. I mean, God might not exist, but Jose Mourinho sure does and he's a twat.
It's more than a little disingenuous to point out that most charity goes to the vulnerable. I don't hear too many people complaining that it's unfair that hopsitals only care for the sick, for example. I actually think that doing good in the name of someone or something other than oneself is a pretty good thing and something to be thankful for. Likewise, to think of charity as a duty or an obligation is infinitely preferable to thinking of it as someone's right.

And the doll is pretty awful.

Yahwe 20 Nov 2006 00:50

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogster
I don't know whether to take you lot seriously sometimes. Why on earth do you claim to hate religion so much?

No one said they hated religion.

The arguments so far fall into the following broad concepts:

1) Christmas wasn't christian to begin with so the de-christianisation of christmas is no bad thing

2) It's wrong to take advantage of the poor and those in a bad situation merely to advertise your religious beliefs.

3) Travler has absurd religious beliefs which include believing that god answers his prayers when ever something goes write but when something goes wrong it has nothing to with god

4) Travler annoys people by ignoring their valid counter arguments and just spamming the same lies and rubbish.

- I also fail to see why you always have to step into a debate if it mentions christianity and start supporting the 'christian side' even when it is so obviously wrong

furball 20 Nov 2006 01:26

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogster
I mean, God might not exist, but Jose Mourinho sure does and he's a twat.

I quite like Jose Mourinho.


"Places like this are the soul of English football. The crowd is magnificent, singing '**** off Mourinho' and so on" - Mourinho after the recent game at Bramall Lane, beating Sheffield United 2-0.

"We didn't win? For me it was 2-1, we scored two goals, two beautiful goals. Normally this is a victory. For me, for my players, for our feelings, we won the game." - After drawing 1-1 with Everton in October 2005, ending a nine-game winning streak. Classic Mourinho.

Boogster 20 Nov 2006 02:03

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe
No one said they hated religion.

The arguments so far fall into the following broad concepts:

1) Christmas wasn't christian to begin with so the de-christianisation of christmas is no bad thing

2) It's wrong to take advantage of the poor and those in a bad situation merely to advertise your religious beliefs.

3) Travler has absurd religious beliefs which include believing that god answers his prayers when ever something goes write but when something goes wrong it has nothing to with god

4) Travler annoys people by ignoring their valid counter arguments and just spamming the same lies and rubbish.

- I also fail to see why you always have to step into a debate if it mentions christianity and start supporting the 'christian side' even when it is so obviously wrong

'Christmas' is plainly a Christian festival. It's really quite silly to claim otherwise. Christmas did, of course, supercede an ealier pagan festival (how rude) but these things happen. Yorkshire locals were once Danish. My mother was born with a different surname. There was once a supermarket called Safeway but it is now part of a chain called Morrisons. In these things I have just had to let go of the past.
I'm sure there are some Christians willfully taking advantage of the needy in order to evanglise coldly, hypocritically and nastily, without any sincere desire to help. Still, these are a minority, who are not behaving as Christians should and often do, and they're being a damn sight more helpful than if they were sitting at home philosophising on the death of God or playing Risk online or something.
Instead of ridiculing Travler, perhaps we all could dedicate some time to helping the disadvantaged. We should have a Good Deeds thread, sarcasm-free, a safe place in which to admit that we're not all cold, yellowing nerds who spend far too much time in dark rooms, but rather nice people who help old ladies across busy roads.
I get involved because I don't like the smug, officious and misinformed attitudes that are always aired in these kinds of discussions. It's perfectly fine to disagree, it's great to hold opinions vehemently, but I get riled by the Dawkins-esque arrogance of it all. Admittedly, a lot of the religious are equally as foolish and self-righteous in these things and it's terribly hard to resist giving them big fat slaps such as 'Prof' Dawkins so richly deserves, but the world would be a friendlier place if we resisted the temptation, wouldn't it?

Furball: I'm sorry, I just hate him. :(

Yahwe 20 Nov 2006 02:13

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogster
'Christmas' is plainly a Christian festival. It's really quite silly to claim otherwise. Christmas did, of course, supercede an ealier pagan festival (how rude), but these things happen. Yorkshire locals were once Danish. My mother was born with a different surname. There was once a supermarket called Safeway but it is now part of a chain called Morrisons. In these things I have just had to let go.
I'm sure there are some Christians willfully taking advantage of the needy in order to evanglise coldly, hypocritically and nastily, without any sincere desire to help. Still, these are a minority, who are not behaving as Christians should and often do, and they're being a damn sight more helpful than if they were sitting at home philosophising on the death of God or playing Risk online or something.
Instead of ridiculing Travler, perhaps we all could dedicate some time to helping the disadvantaged, for example?
I get involved because I don't like the smug, officious and misinformed attitudes that are always aired in these kinds of discussions. It's perfectly fine to disagree, it's great to hold opinions vehemently, but I get riled by the Dawkins-esque arrogance of it all. Admittedly, a lot of the religious are equally as foolish and self-righteous in these things and it's terribly hard to resist giving them big fat slaps such as 'Prof' Dawkins so richly deserves, but the world would be a friendlier place if we resisted the temptation, wouldn't it?

The only smug, officious or missinformed attitudes in this thread have come from travler.

My first reply to you was to correct your disingenuous claims. I had hoped you would not try the same tactic again.

Add something to the discussion or get out.

Boogster 20 Nov 2006 02:21

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe
The only smug, officious or missinformed attitudes in this thread have come from travler.

My first reply to you was to correct your disingenuous claims. I had hoped you would not try the same tactic again.

Add something to the discussion or get out.

What claims?

I think I've contributed some smashingly well-meaning dissent to this most seasonal discussion of ethical dialectics between the most brilliant minds of our generation. Good show.

JonnyBGood 20 Nov 2006 02:23

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
I don't hate religion. I dislike publicised religion. I've never felt the need to run around talking about how great my personal beliefs are or how people vaguely associated with me did x,y,z great things. What's wrong with naturalistic secularism guys? :(

Yahwe 20 Nov 2006 02:24

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogster
What claims?

I think I've contributed some smashingly well-meaning dissent to this most seasonal discussion of ethical dialectics between the most brilliant minds of our generation. Good show.

Yeah,


but you think hell is real.

Boogster 20 Nov 2006 02:27

Re: Jesus rejected for Christmas
 
JBG: Nothing at all. You fellows are pretty great.

Needless to say, I bet you've shouted about your local football team at some point, and you don't even believe that they've saved you from sin, condemnation and quite possibly damnation.


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