No new alliances?
I am very suprised that I havent heard or seen anything about any new alliances this round. In my eyes this only shows that the alliance limits are to high, and that people find it difficult to create a new alliance. Does anyone have a view on this?
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At least one old one is coming back though. And I've not heard of any alliances disbanding. No free members = no new alliances.
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would only having, say 5-10 ally members in an alliance really dissuade people from creating one?
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its summer.
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You name one alliance that formed during a free round. I can name five that didn't. The question of whether the round is free or paid is largely irrelevant to both forming and existing alliances.
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vision are coming back for this rd too
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WP didnt come back during the free round.
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dont get technical on me boyo.
Free rounds may bring in more 'casual' players, but as mz said above, the people who run allainces and whatnot generally stays at an even'ish level, maybe even less during summer which is why theirs not going to be any surge of new allainces. |
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maybe... |
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:banana: |
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Even if there were more allies, we've not been generating DCs/BCs/HCs. They'd have to come from the current pool, decreasing the average quality of alliances. Even in the days we had more alliances, we had only a few clear sides. FLTV/XeTa/FoS for example - compared to ND/Den/Asc and previously ND/CT/Urwins. Finally, players lose out. Cutting limits forces allies to reject and kick players. A cut to 60 members would mean we'd have to generate at least 2 alliances to take in the members who were housed last round. Even if we did this why should these players have to leave their ally and play somewhere they don't want to? Where do new players go? Besides which, we seem to be an alliance up this round. In summary, you need to explain the concept of limits being 'too high', why and how this is a bad thing. And your evidence (no 'new' alliances) is circumstantial and shaky; your hypothesis isn't supported by any observed data we've seen so far. |
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It is a sommer round, people tend to enjoy the sun instead creating new allies.
Try it, you might like the sun :) |
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Kargool just join hidden agenda
you will only benefit from workin under our command team :banana: |
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If your goal is to make new players extrapolate the experiences they had with these incompetent HCs to HCs of other alliances, giving them a convincing reason to quit, then no, they don't.
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Denial wouldn't have played r26 had we known it was going to be a 75 limit when we decided to play. 60 was a reachable target for us as a brand new alliance, we thought 75 would be too much. Luckily we were wrong (thanks mostly to Rock not playing). But I think the higher limit does persuade potentially new HC's not to bother trying. And comments on the competency of our HC will be ignored, so don't bother flaming me, im simply trying to partake in a decent discussion as a HC of a recently new alliance.
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so where are all these new casual players? this is one of the worst players counts ive ever seen in pa... its proper dead now
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if i remember correctly, sandmans said the total signups last round was 1500, considering we're at 1444 as of now id imagine it'll go a fair few hundred over that.
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By increasing the memberlimit, there is a marginal cost in terms of officer time eg 20 more members may require 1 extra DC. But this cost is very small compared to the initial outlay eg you need 10-15 officers/HC to provide infrastructure, regardless of whether you have 20 or 100 members.
With a memberlimit of 30, that means there are 15 slots for non-officer members. With a limit of 90, there are 75 slots. Tripling the memberlimit quintuples the number of slots for non-officer players. Of course, the alternative is that alliances get by on less officers, decreasing alliance quality so that members of most alliances have a worse time. Either way, given that active officers are a finite resource, I'm still convinced that lower memberlimits are a bad thing for the game. If you have the officers to generate new alliances (only anecdotal evidence supports this), you end up with poorer quality alliances or with less slots for players who can't commit to DCing/BCing. |
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Then I didnt bother to go on IRC since, and ofc did not sign up an acc, nor have I been contacted anymore about it on msn.. So I guess they couldnt be bothered either? PA has been dying a long time, free rounds or not. Sooner or later the loyal 1,5k that keeps it running will also quit. Like I did a few rounds back.. (it could of still been big if P2P never was introduced in the first place though) |
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p2p kills text games, it happened in ogame so they then just added a couple of very very minor bonuses to paid accounts. unlike pa.. where most the good shit is there if u pay. I know a round has been won by a free account blah blah.. but its shit as **** still
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(maybe goes off topic - apologies)
I have felt for a while that possibly the recently "new" alliances have only been created because one or more previously established alliance chose not to play a round. Basically an alliance says "we aint playing next round" and ZAP a new alliance is announced. The new alliances I have seen recently don't seem to be getting created because of an influx or excess of people. I have to say I am not suprised more players don't stick with the game, let alone lead others and teach new players. Few days back I told a few mates who i thought would be interested that a new round was starting so sign up coz its free. and tbh OMG what an absolute F**K ON it has been to bring new players to this game. Being a player who has been playing for more rounds than he cares to remember i never realised what it actually takes to go from zero knowledge about this game to anywhere near a working knowledge. I am talking about the stuff you just take for granted. I mean you gotta explain How to set your government, WHEN to set your government, how many roids to init, what ships to build, which race to be, how to set production, what the gal fund does, which alliances there are, what to research, what to construct, what quests are. THEN Dear Lord you have to introduce IRC! *faints... Where to get it from, How to work IRC, how to reg a nick, how to join a channel, register a channel, configure IRC. Yeah, you have got the manual, yeah netgamers help, yeah the ship stats, yeah the forums, and all these different start up guides, but its not cohesive. There is no single point of entry to PA that leads the players into the game. I had to point all this stuff out and collate all this info into a kinda manageable guide for them :( It felt like work :( Which is probably why more officers and leaders don't come forward. Look at the amount of work involved. PA needs to be more acccesible, but i suppose without being boring. New features won't bring new players to the game it will just keep existing players, which is only half the story. People have mentioned integrating PA with Facebook and tbh its never going to happen. Take a look at the games in Facebook you can pick them up in 5 minutes and be reasonably up to speed with them. That's why they attract a bazzilion players a day. I never thought PA was all that complicated and was quite easy to learn. But if you "find" this game, bit like adding an app in facebook, you think "ooo that looks cool think i'll try it." I give them 5 minutes :/ If like me now you meet a new player who says "So how do i play this then" You just inwardly groan and feel its gonna take far to long to explain! i don't like being a detractor from PA but there you are... Think i'll go lie down now :rolleyes: |
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I completely agree, having had several newbies land in my gal in each of the last few rounds it has been a real trial to get them up to speed and understanding everything, and frankly I am getting quite sick of doing it round after round, I dont see how the learning alliances like ASS and F-crew can stick with it!
I can see why many experienced players treat newbies with disdain, effectively demanding they work out a large amount of the game before the experienced players will help (by demanding IRC activity) on the alliance issue I agree that there does not seem to be too many more ppl than in the previous few rounds... and I certainly dont think there are more experienced players playing, and presumably there is a higher proportion of those who are playing are playing an easy round in which they dont what to be a HC or an officer for an alliance... in such circumstances I dont really see how new alliances could be formed. moreover with no change in the limits and meny alliances having not been full last round there is not really a need for new alliances this round, should simply mean more full tags. Afterall if there were more new players for a free round this would not mean that the experienced player base would be any more helpful or willing to put the time in to teach them than it is. ps I note there is a very large number of players in C200 (245) while I have never before paid attention to how many are in C200 so dont have a point of comparison I suspect it balances out with the slightly higher than usual number of accounts for the stage of the round we are at... has anyone paid closer attention to C200 at this stage of the round than I have who wishes to say whether I am correct or wrong? |
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Just because the military hierarchy model has been victorious in the past does not mean it is the sole effective model. Why do people keep insisting the world is flat and that only people who believe in a flat Planet(arion) can go to heaven? Alternative strategy may be heresy but at least it isn't blind ignorance. |
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The 'Ascendancy' model hasn't been extensively tested; Ascendancy probably have the most skilled memberbase, a number of whom can BC/DC*. We don't know how an alliance would perform if it took the Ascendancy approach and didn't have a core of brilliant players. However, it would probably be the only viable model to generate alliances if we cut the member cap. *it worked for DLR when they played out of tag too; but they're a group where every member should be finishing t100 and with no politics to worry about. |
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There are ways to have fun and still be successful without either of these approaches. People need to stop worrying about the pointless limitations being imposed by PATeam and worry more about how to have fun within them, even if that means challenging them occasionally. This is supposed to be a game of war, strife and conflict but instead it's planets-by-numbers within alliances-by-numbers. People should really stop blaming PATeam, Jolt, God, whoever and start realising that they are just as responsible for stagnation in the meta game as any of the above. |
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lets say you have 2members in gal A, 2 members in gal B. gal A and B get 5waves each. that leaves 26 ppl to cover 20 incs and we all know that ppl aint availible 24/7 regardless of what they say, so max 20ppl availible to send def. and if its big incs you wont have enough fleets:> |
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Alternatively you have nights where attacks aren't prepared, or gaping holes in your defence times. Furthermore you need scanner coverage and a politics HC. Either you have 5 unbelievably active players to run the alliance, sacrificing their entire rl, or you compromise alliance quality, or you take a different approach (eg DLR went distwhore/XP whore). At such low member limits, heirarchically-structured alliances begin to break down. A few will field full officer cadres and dominate the rankings, and we end up with a similar ranking structure to now. All you've succeeded in doing is kicking hundreds of players from their alliances. EDIT: Actually, if I was an HC with 30 member limits, I'd have 2+ tags. I'd keep the main tag for my top players, have a scanning/support/covop tag and a recruitment tag or two. I'm not sure that's what we really want. |
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r16
r26 |
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I didn't say it was a particularly good argument.
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That said I'd like to clarify something that I didn't make clear enough yesterday. I don't believe that established alliances should necessarily change how they work at all. Taking ND as a convenient example, you guys have a long history of employing the hierarchy style and to good effect on more than one occasion. So if it ain't broke, don't fix it as the saying goes. My point was much more aimed at the alliances that form every couple of rounds only to dwindle away again. Insomnia is a nice example of this. They've never seemed able to master the hierarchy approach, most rounds they are lucky if they still have a tag at the end. So in this case it is broke, they should try something to fix it. Then there is the third case of newly forming alliances tending to always follow the most obvious of structuring routes. Surely the founders of these alliances should be looking for a new way to gain an edge on the opposition rather than just following them blindly down the same path and hoping to pass them at some point. Quote:
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Re: No new alliances?
remove any set limit.
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Ascendancy's core of players wasn't "brilliant" in round 26. It's easy to say that Denial's model was worse than ours, but let's look at what really happened. Both side crashed lots of fleets, so let's work on the assumption that the member base quality was somewhat equivalent, in the sense that it was not the largest deciding factor. The key difference is that Ascendancy doesn't have a formally organized command structure, relying instead on an IRC bot and an ad hoc command structure. Denial's formalized command structure made some really stupid decisions that (imho) were a larger deciding factor in the outcome of the round than the general quality of the memberbase. For more info, see JBG's end of round summary. How does Ascendancy's model protect against this sort of decision? Ascendancy relies on a trust network rather than command hierarchy. Say a new member comes around and has an idea for an attack, people don't really know him, but ok they'll give it a shot. If he bombs, they'll be more reluctant to join his attacks, if the attack is a success, he'll have his own personal army at his beck and call whenever he needs it. In this sense we're protected against retards wasting our fleet slots day in and day out. In the Ascendancy world, Exit simply means you don't do what that person says. In the Denial world, Exit means leaving the alliance. The cost of Denial's command being wrong is (potentially) much higher than Ascendancy's. In Denial's world, Voice means complaining to the HC, who are the final point of responsibility. If action isn't taken, members become frustrated. In Ascendancy Voice means complaining to trusted members (preferably sponsors of whoever is being a dick). This encourages using Voice to settle conflicts, making sure both sides are heard. This isn't to say Ascendancy's model is in itself superior, it relies fully on the people who use it. Achi, mz and myself (assuming they agree with me) just happen to believe that our model is more likely to stimulate people to play and do well. The Ascendancy model has a better success rate then the hierarchy model (2 wins out of 11 alliance-rounds played (18%), as opposed to 9 wins out of about 66 alliance-rounds played (14%, assuming 6 competing hierarchical alliances per round)). But that isn't why it's better. It's better because our player retainment rate is much higher than the hierarchical model. More people stick around and more people come back to play again with Ascendancy. I don't have specific numbers, but I can make some rough numbers for the last 7-8 rounds if any alliance cares to compare. (I could very well be wrong about this!) I also don't think that Ascendancy plays the Ascendancy model to the best way possible. We can improve on several areas if we truly want to achieve the highest possible rank every round. A lot of our members don't want to. They like playing PA, but they don't like playing PA at a highly competitive level. That's fine. At least it's not an unpaid job. |
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